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I actually think churches tend to reflect patterns of Hellenistic temples, not Hebrew ones, but that's another conversation
Huntingteckel
Inactive
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So now we see that some denominations are giving the women more say than the men in their congregation: this divides the home and makes women more submissive to the "pastors". It is fast becoming the same in politics: because women, by nature, are easier to manipulate.
Huntingteckel
Inactive
Well, let's take a minute for some question-asking about that, since we agree that critical thinking is better than simply accepting what's been said
My wife's discernment and critical thinking skills are far superior to my own. People's motivations and intentions are pretty transparent to her; I've never known her to be easily manipulated, and I go to her to help me think through situations so I'm not easily manipulated. Some people have told me in the past that this means I need to pray that God will make me the man God wants me to be, but what does that mean for her? Should she pray that God make her into the easily manipulated woman she should be?
I'm being a bit cheeky there, I admit. I guess I'm just saying, if our own observations lead us to different conclusions than the comment I quoted, how should we respond to such a claim? Shouldn't I accept, respect and appreciate these qualities I've observed in my wife? How can I possibly observe her consistent mastery over being manipulated, which seems to come naturally to her, and still accept that "women, by nature, are easier to manipulate?"
_____________________________________________Well, let's take a minute for some question-asking about that, since we agree that critical thinking is better than simply accepting what's been said
My wife's discernment and critical thinking skills are far superior to my own. People's motivations and intentions are pretty transparent to her; I've never known her to be easily manipulated, and I go to her to help me think through situations so I'm not easily manipulated. Some people have told me in the past that this means I need to pray that God will make me the man God wants me to be, but what does that mean for her? Should she pray that God make her into the easily manipulated woman she should be?
I'm being a bit cheeky there, I admit. I guess I'm just saying, if our own observations lead us to different conclusions than the comment I quoted, how should we respond to such a claim? Shouldn't I accept, respect and appreciate these qualities I've observed in my wife? How can I possibly observe her consistent mastery over being manipulated, which seems to come naturally to her, and still accept that "women, by nature, are easier to manipulate?"
Do you believe your wife is representative of all women?
Eve, in the garden, is representative of all women:
Eve, in her sinless state, represents the Church: "And Adam called his wife Eve, because she was the mother of all living."
And Eve was told that her "...desire was to be to her husband...".: and she is now pulling at the reins of her husband (man): and just as she was the fall of Adam, so now is she the tool to bring man to obeisance.
this is from a woman .. but I have read similar inability to present the word of God by men ..
Episcopal Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori denounced the Apostle Paul as mean-spirited and bigoted for having released a slave girl from demonic bondage as reported in Acts 16:16-34 .
“The history of this place tells some tragic stories about the inability of some to see the beauty in other skin colors or the treasure of cultures they didn’t value or understand,” she said. “Human beings have a long history of discounting and devaluing difference, finding it offensive or even evil. That kind of blindness is what leads to oppression, slavery, and often, war. Yet there remains a holier impulse in human life toward freedom, dignity, and the full flourishing of those who have been kept apart or on the margins of human communities.” We live with the continuing tension between holier impulses that encourage us to see the image of God in all human beings and the reality that some of us choose not to see that glimpse of the divine, and instead use other people as means to an end. We’re seeing something similar right now in the changing attitudes and laws about same-sex relationships, as many people come to recognize that different is not the same thing as wrong. For many people, it can be difficult to see God at work in the world around us, particularly if God is doing something unexpected.
There are some remarkable examples of that kind of blindness in the readings we heard this morning, and slavery is wrapped up in a lot of it. Paul is annoyed at the slave girl who keeps pursuing him, telling the world that he and his companions are slaves of God. She is quite right. She’s telling the same truth Paul and others claim for themselves. But Paul is annoyed, perhaps for being put in his place, and he responds by depriving her of her gift of spiritual awareness. Paul can’t abide something he won’t see as beautiful or holy, so he tries to destroy it. It gets him thrown in prison. That’s pretty much where he’s put himself by his own refusal to recognize that she, too, shares in God’s nature, just as much as he does – maybe more so! The amazing thing is that during that long night in jail he remembers that he might find God there – so he and his cellmates spend the night praying and singing hymns.
Act 16:16 It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave-girl having a spirit of πύθων pythōn met us, who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune-telling.
so it says she had a spirit serpent and that is what Paul addressed and commanded to come out ..
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No, I don't think my wife represents all women. But I also don't think she's an exception to a rule. And I do think she's a good role model for all people regardless of their gender.
I agree!
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Being vigilant is also speaking out. There was a Minister in the Church who did not believe in "healing"; and would say, during his preaching, that that is why the Lord gave men wisdom and knowledge: to study medicine. I had an opportunity to speak with him alone, and asked that if there were not many healings, that it might be because there's not enough preaching and teaching on the subject, for "...Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
There are some that can't quite believe in the healing power of the Lord for today: so they must be taught: in the meantime, I would not advise them to stop seeing a doctor. Let them grow into the faith, like little children.
Sure, it's really dangerous in churches when someone lectures a group, and it's understood that the group is expected to accept what's being said without question.
I'd suggest it's a bad sign when disagreeing with something said from the pulpit needs to be thought of as "speaking out" (although I definitely agree that it sometimes does need to happen, unfortunately). That safe space for mutually respectful discussion/disagreement/critical questioning is just standard in mature congregations.
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Dangerous? How?
See, the church should have elders who should know the scriptures. "Speaking out" is an extreme action: and agreed that it should not be used lightly. But the elders are elders for a reason. Take the preaching of the Apostle Paul.
"But Peter, standing up with he eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them...". Peter spoke under the direction of the Holy Spirit, and the other eleven apostles agreed with Peter: for none interrupted him. Why? Because they, also, were filled with the same Holy Spirit and they were "..all joined together in one mind and in one judgment."
In the Church, which is where we are gathered "...in His NAME...", we should all speak the same thing because we should all know the same thing. But as long as the Ministry is not complete, neither shall the preaching and teaching be complete. And so we see confusion and members not thinking the same nor judging rightly.
Walk in the Light, Beloved.
Huntingteckel
Inactive
"Should" being the key word.
Dangerous, because of all the forms of control that are used when people are expected to believe anything their leaders say.
Take, for example, the way 1 Cor 14:33 is often misused: people will quote "God is not the author of confusion" to imply, "and your disagreement creates confusion, therefore you need to conform with what I've said."
It's pretty tough for me to think of the friendly discussion I have with a pastor after church when I've disagreed with something he's said as "an extreme action."
I agree that leaders in a church should have a good understanding of scripture, but I don't think they need to be expected to have a perfect understanding of scripture. If you hear something said in a church you don't agree with, I think most people would be cool if you wanted to talk about it after. It doesn't have to end up in a big confrontation or anything.
Leaders don't have to be perfect to be good leaders. The Spirit can give insight to anyone on what's been said. That's all I'm saying.
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