Honest And Sincere...

Belanos

Belanos

Greetings,

I am an atheist who would love to discuss Christianity with honest, sincere, mature people. I have a genuine interest in what people think. I am not here to convert anyone. (Do you really think I could convert you in a discussion?) The problem that I run into is the fact that this is a passionate subject. There is no way to talk about these things in a mild, happy, lovey-dovey manner. So when I ask a difficult, straight-forward question, I am accused of being a jerk. I would understand if I were saying things like, "Hey, how is it possible that you are so stupid!?!?!?" But I don't do that. My questions are sincere, and I really really really want to know your honest answer. The problem is, that I have been attempting this for years, and I rarely get an honest answer. I consistently get accused of being antagonistic and no answers are given. Please leave your immature baggage at the door, and have an honest, respectful discussion with me. Thank you!
 
I would love to discuss things with you :) I'm not very educated in historical bible knowledge.. I Just my own study and evidence of Gods work in my life. Mostly faith:) welcome!!
 
Belanos said:
Greetings,

I am an atheist who would love to discuss Christianity with honest, sincere, mature people. I have a genuine interest in what people think. I am not here to convert anyone. (Do you really think I could convert you in a discussion?) The problem that I run into is the fact that this is a passionate subject. There is no way to talk about these things in a mild, happy, lovey-dovey manner. So when I ask a difficult, straight-forward question, I am accused of being a jerk. I would understand if I were saying things like, "Hey, how is it possible that you are so stupid!?!?!?" But I don't do that. My questions are sincere, and I really really really want to know your honest answer. The problem is, that I have been attempting this for years, and I rarely get an honest answer. I consistently get accused of being antagonistic and no answers are given. Please leave your immature baggage at the door, and have an honest, respectful discussion with me. Thank you!
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Hello Belanos. Feel free to ask questions. In fact, I just answered your question on prayer. I hope you are blessed here.
 
Belanos said:
I am an atheist who would love to discuss Christianity with honest, sincere, mature people.
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Ok. let see if you are that mature that you claims….
I found atheist to be immature: in logic….

Logic is a systematic thinking. There are rules.
It starts with an assumption: a premise.
Both parties need to agree first on the assumption: that is: it is taken for granted as truth*
No premise, no conclusion.

What I found immature with Atheist is, in the middle of the discussion: they will say:
“sorry: I do not agree with the conclusion because I do not believe in the premise in the first place”
How can you have a decent discussion with that !

*now, this is the funny thing: an atheist here mentioned that he cannot agree with that one in *
Now, that is stupidity: Why? Because that atheist is claiming logical thinking and he actually knows nothing of it!

That one in * means the Premise is taken for granted, so as logical thinking to proceed: it does not mean: one believes in the premise!
A premise is essential in logical discussion.
It is a “sine qua non” , without that: there is no logical thinking to proceed in the first place.

But if you don’t have that maturity, no problem : )
I can still engage if you interested….

Your honest and sincere will do : )
 
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Belanos said:
Greetings,

I am an atheist who would love to discuss Christianity with honest, sincere, mature people. I have a genuine interest in what people think. I am not here to convert anyone. (Do you really think I could convert you in a discussion?) The problem that I run into is the fact that this is a passionate subject. There is no way to talk about these things in a mild, happy, lovey-dovey manner. So when I ask a difficult, straight-forward question, I am accused of being a jerk. I would understand if I were saying things like, "Hey, how is it possible that you are so stupid!?!?!?" But I don't do that. My questions are sincere, and I really really really want to know your honest answer. The problem is, that I have been attempting this for years, and I rarely get an honest answer. I consistently get accused of being antagonistic and no answers are given. Please leave your immature baggage at the door, and have an honest, respectful discussion with me. Thank you!
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Will be glad to discuss! As long as you have respect for the faith.. I think believers have the same request to atheists.. They need to shed off the wrong thoughts that we are having some sort of blind faith.. And believers have no rationale thinking.. And also, the question should be something with some intent to listen to the answer..
 
Ravindran said:
So are you going to ask anything? ;)
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Howdy Ravindran! I guess I was just thinking of this thread as an introduction. I have asked a couple questions on another thread...BUT, I will indeed ask a question here. I have no shortage of questions! :-)
I've attempted to ask this question of a certain Christian friend of mine, but he writes a novel for EVERY answer, so it was difficult to follow. So I will try this one here...
If God knows everything...he is omniscient, then before he created me, he would know that I would end up being a non-believer and I would die and go to hell to be punished for all eternity. Why would he then go ahead and create me, just to torture me forever in Hell?
 
Belanos said:
Howdy Ravindran! I guess I was just thinking of this thread as an introduction. I have asked a couple questions on another thread...BUT, I will indeed ask a question here. I have no shortage of questions! :)
I've attempted to ask this question of a certain Christian friend of mine, but he writes a novel for EVERY answer, so it was difficult to follow. So I will try this one here...
If God knows everything...he is omniscient, then before he created me, he would know that I would end up being a non-believer and I would die and go to hell to be punished for all eternity. Why would he then go ahead and create me, just to torture me forever in Hell?
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Well we have free will. You are still alive aren't you? So you could become a believer right now! You are rejecting salvation by not believing. It's not God's fault, it's yours. I was once a non-believer, but now I am not :D. Your question implies that you can't stop being an un-believer, which is not true.
 
Cosmicwaffle said:
Well we have free will. You are still alive aren't you? So you could become a believer right now! You are rejecting salvation by not believing. It's not God's fault, it's yours. I was once a non-believer, but now I am not :D. Your question implies that you can't stop being an un-believer, which is not true.
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Thanks for the reply Mr. Waffle. :-) Let's just say I don't start believing and I die in the next 60 seconds. I will go to Hell. Regardless of free will, God would have known....billions of years before I existed....that I would decided to not believe in him, and go to Hell. Knowing this, why would he still go ahead and create me?
 
Belanos said:
Thanks for the reply Mr. Waffle. :) Let's just say I don't start believing and I die in the next 60 seconds. I will go to Hell. Regardless of free will, God would have known....billions of years before I existed....that I would decided to not believe in him, and go to Hell. Knowing this, why would he still go ahead and create me?
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Because you aren't dead and you can still believe right now! :) Why would you, knowing you are about to die (Which really COULD be any moment), not believe if it means salvation? Are you just trying to test God? Do you think God is not good enough to save you? Or that is he not just by sending people to hell? It only burns because of the mistake you are making right now. You are putting more faith in your own definition of what God can and can't do, putting faith in your definition of what Good and Evil are. We are called to put our faith in him, he is the eternal, the everlasting, and the good. Whereas we are the finite, the decaying, and the evil.
 
Cosmicwaffle said:
Because you aren't dead and you can still believe right now! :) Why would you, knowing you are about to die (Which really COULD be any moment), not believe if it means salvation? Are you just trying to test God? Do you think God is not good enough to save you? Or that is he not just by sending people to hell? It only burns because of the mistake you are making right now. You are putting more faith in your own definition of what God can and can't do, putting faith in your definition of what Good and Evil are. We are called to put our faith in him, he is the eternal, the everlasting, and the good. Whereas we are the finite, the decaying, and the evil.
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I understand and appreciate you caring for me to say the things that you are saying, but you spent your whole answer trying to convert me instead of answering the question. You bring up many interesting things to talk about, but to address them here would only tangent away from the question. I would be willing to discuss these things in another thread. But here, I would like to know why God would purposely create someone (imagine other non-believers who have already died..not me.) just to torture them in Hell for all eternity.
 
Belanos said:
I understand and appreciate you caring for me to say the things that you are saying, but you spent your whole answer trying to convert me instead of answering the question. You bring up many interesting things to talk about, but to address them here would only tangent away from the question. I would be willing to discuss these things in another thread. But here, I would like to know why God would purposely create someone (imagine other non-believers who have already died..not me.) just to torture them in Hell for all eternity.
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He doesn't create people to send them to hell. He created people, and we sent ourselves to hell. He is the one offering salvation.
 
Belanos said:
So do you acknowledge that before he creates a person, he knows already that he/she is going to end up going to Hell?
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Why should this even matter? Either you believe in Jesus Christ for salvation or you don't. If you choose to not believe it's not God's fault. You are trying to say "Since God created me, it's his fault if I go to hell." but it doesn't work like that. Ultimately you have the free will to choose whether you will believe or not. Of Course God ultimately knows what you will choose, but that doesn't mean he chose it for you. You understand?
 
Cosmicwaffle said:
Why should this even matter? Either you believe in Jesus Christ for salvation or you don't. If you choose to not believe it's not God's fault. You are trying to say "Since God created me, it's his fault if I go to hell." but it doesn't work like that. Ultimately you have the free will to choose whether you will believe or not. Of Course God ultimately knows what you will choose, but that doesn't mean he chose it for you. You understand?
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It matters, because if this all doesn't make sense, then this God probably isn't real and was created by iron-age, uneducated men who didn't think it through. So bottom line, regardless of free will, God creates people fully knowing he is going to send them to Hell...a Hell that he created. So all this clearly says that God is evil. That is why it matters. Again....God creates people to send to Hell.
 
Belanos said:
Thanks for the reply Mr. Waffle. :) Let's just say I don't start believing and I die in the next 60 seconds. I will go to Hell. Regardless of free will, God would have known....billions of years before I existed....that I would decided to not believe in him, and go to Hell. Knowing this, why would he still go ahead and create me?
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Before you ask questions like this, it would be best to find out what God knows and does not know.

This way we don't assume and accuse him of any wrong doing. It would also do you good to not just take a Christians word for anything because to be honest, most are full of bad doctrine they need to wash out with what God actually said.

You also presented a Election V.S foreknowledge argument.

If God knew way ahead of time you would roast in Hell, then why would God even make you if He foreknew?

This argument means God is no longer using foreknowledge as in telling the future, but God is electing you and causing you to go to hell. It removes your free will. God just did not make you and get a revelation that OH, this one is going to Hell through some crystal ball of his then decided to drop you on the planet anyway.

God is not that stupid as some think.

God would have with purpose made you to go to hell. Not foreknowledge, but Election and plan.

So there is really no such thing as Foreknowledge about who makes it or not with God, unless God just blindly drops people on the planet then consults his fortune teller to find out what happens to each of us and writes it down.

It would have to be God caused you to go to hell.

If I have foreknowledge I will run out of gas before getting to work, and I run out of gas, it's not foreknowledge, it's me having wisdom about something and not acting on it. (Like getting gas before work)

1Sa_15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

God makes many statements like this in the bible. Does God set up a king knowing that the king will turn from him? No way, God is not stupid. It was Saul who turned his back on God.
Repenteth means to sigh long, wish He had not. It's not in the Hebrew sense of having done wrong.

If you go to hell, it will be your choice................... I suggest you choose not to go.

Don't let it be said of the Lord that he put on your heart to talk to his people, did what he could to get your attention and sigh long that he has no choice but to send you to hell. Just like He had to let go Saul.
 
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