I question the omniscience of God
- Thread starter Juk
- Start date
Can you give examples from scripture? Not sure what you referring to..man does have some free will in that we can choose to obey or not. God does not force this, he waits patiently. It's like if you a parent, you know your children. You also know their weaknesses and strengths, but they have a mind of their own and won't always do what they told.
Free will must be absolute to be free will at all. God is completely aware of every single thing that anyone will ever think or do.
He allows our poor behavior because He allows free will. He will do everything possible to cajole us into good behavior, but He cannot force without violating the free in free will. So at the end of the day, we are responsible for our problems and failures. He has to deal with mortals in a way they can understand. With Abraham, God wanted to test him to bring out the virtue in him. Showing Abraham that He knew what Abraham would do beforehand would not have helped the situation in the least.
He allows our poor behavior because He allows free will. He will do everything possible to cajole us into good behavior, but He cannot force without violating the free in free will. So at the end of the day, we are responsible for our problems and failures. He has to deal with mortals in a way they can understand. With Abraham, God wanted to test him to bring out the virtue in him. Showing Abraham that He knew what Abraham would do beforehand would not have helped the situation in the least.
Amens/Likes:
Major, KingJ and Juk
I cannot see the relevance of the flood or the sacrifice of Abraham to your question Juk. Could you help.
However, it might help if you took on board the fact that God dwells outside of time, and that time was one of his creations. That's why scripture tells us God sees the end from the beginning.
That being the case, right now, he is viewing your birth, your schooling, your decisions to seek after him, your first job, your marriage, your children, your death, your resurrection, etc, and he is viewing them all in the present sense. God is not peering forward to look at the future, he is currently dwelling in the past present and the future, outside of time as we know it.
However, it might help if you took on board the fact that God dwells outside of time, and that time was one of his creations. That's why scripture tells us God sees the end from the beginning.
That being the case, right now, he is viewing your birth, your schooling, your decisions to seek after him, your first job, your marriage, your children, your death, your resurrection, etc, and he is viewing them all in the present sense. God is not peering forward to look at the future, he is currently dwelling in the past present and the future, outside of time as we know it.
Amens/Likes:
Angela333 and Juk
It looks like everyone has already responded to God's so-called inability to know all things. The flood, the sacrifice of Abraham, and so many other scenarios, don't mean that God wasn't aware. It meant God did know what was going to haven, but also knew that each person has the ability to choose whether to go right or to go wrong.
Amens/Likes:
Major
Juk, God is who he is. Who is God? He is God.
Of course God knows all things. If he didn't could we say he is God? It wouldn't be very Godlike if God had to figure stuff out. No, he has always and always will know everything. The flood? It was his decision. Abraham attempting to sacrifice his son? He not only commanded him, but knew he would do it.
Our understanding of God's Omnipotence gets blurry when we read into the things he says to us. He words things in a certain way so that we can understand it, and so that it accomplishes the purposes for which he spoke it.
Of course God knows all things. If he didn't could we say he is God? It wouldn't be very Godlike if God had to figure stuff out. No, he has always and always will know everything. The flood? It was his decision. Abraham attempting to sacrifice his son? He not only commanded him, but knew he would do it.
Our understanding of God's Omnipotence gets blurry when we read into the things he says to us. He words things in a certain way so that we can understand it, and so that it accomplishes the purposes for which he spoke it.
Let's look at the precursor to the flood. :
NKJV 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
KJV
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
ESV
6 And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Now, as some have said, God is outside of time, sees all, knows what is coming next, because He planned this all out even before He created any of it. Here, God is quoted, that He regrets, repents, is sorrowful, or is otherwise having extreme feelings over a state of mankind which He knew was going to happen because He created it knowing it would happen. BTW, how is it that God can have any emotion at any given time since He exists in all time at the same time? All at once, He sees this evil in mankind and His Son Jesus rising from the dead which makes Him happy. Isn't this conflicted?
We know that God's Word is true. So He is sorrowful and regrets making man. How can one regret something when one knows it is on the agenda? God is following His plan, and at this point in time, mankind must be destroyed. Why regret something you plan to do all along, something that serves your purpose and will? Something you intended to happen.
Unless you didn't intend for it to happen. Ahhhh, we may be getting somewhere.
Now, suffice it to say, no one is arguing God is not omni-everything. God knows the beginning because He created it. God knows the end because He will create any and all needed actions required to cause the outcome of His intent and plan. After all, God causes all things to work together for good to those that love Him and are called for His purpose.
My postulation is that time does not exist, not as most people conceive of it. What we refer to as "time", is nothing more than a measurement of decay, growth and change. Measurements do not exist, they are just markers for us to compare things that do exist. Inches and centimeters do not exist, they are just common marks on a ruler, tape measure or some other apparatus.
When measurements are created, it is nothing more than an agreed determination of what constitutes said measurement. We could all agree to change the length of an hour to be some other standard, for instance, instead of 24 hours in a day, we could make there be 48 hours in a day. Every new hour would be what was previously 30 minutes.
So we see time measurements are arbitrary standards to compare the decay, growth and change of matter in the universe. With this definition, God now is outside of decay, growth and change for He is not affected nor effected by any of these tangible effects.
Since time does not exist, God is always in the here and now, whether the beginning or end of what we understand to be a beginning and end. He is tending to His creation, going through all the cycles of life, allowing us to make decisions, nudging us at times to do what we ought, turning His face away from us as in Deuteronomy 31:17-18 and 32:20 and in the NT 1 Peter 3:12 . A thread should be started just on those passages as to what that implies.
God knows all the possibilities of future events, but few are set in stone; we make decisions of free will that affect which ones take place. All lead towards the events of Revelation and the end of this world. How we get there is not decided. I think this is why the church age of soon to be 2000 years was not in prophecy. Just as if you are traveling from New York to Los Angeles, the decision to leave New York and arrive in LA is made, but how you get there can lead you on roads too many to count. Should we take the narrow road or the broad path?
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Proverbs 16:9
NKJV 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
KJV
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
ESV
6 And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Now, as some have said, God is outside of time, sees all, knows what is coming next, because He planned this all out even before He created any of it. Here, God is quoted, that He regrets, repents, is sorrowful, or is otherwise having extreme feelings over a state of mankind which He knew was going to happen because He created it knowing it would happen. BTW, how is it that God can have any emotion at any given time since He exists in all time at the same time? All at once, He sees this evil in mankind and His Son Jesus rising from the dead which makes Him happy. Isn't this conflicted?
We know that God's Word is true. So He is sorrowful and regrets making man. How can one regret something when one knows it is on the agenda? God is following His plan, and at this point in time, mankind must be destroyed. Why regret something you plan to do all along, something that serves your purpose and will? Something you intended to happen.
Unless you didn't intend for it to happen. Ahhhh, we may be getting somewhere.
Now, suffice it to say, no one is arguing God is not omni-everything. God knows the beginning because He created it. God knows the end because He will create any and all needed actions required to cause the outcome of His intent and plan. After all, God causes all things to work together for good to those that love Him and are called for His purpose.
My postulation is that time does not exist, not as most people conceive of it. What we refer to as "time", is nothing more than a measurement of decay, growth and change. Measurements do not exist, they are just markers for us to compare things that do exist. Inches and centimeters do not exist, they are just common marks on a ruler, tape measure or some other apparatus.
When measurements are created, it is nothing more than an agreed determination of what constitutes said measurement. We could all agree to change the length of an hour to be some other standard, for instance, instead of 24 hours in a day, we could make there be 48 hours in a day. Every new hour would be what was previously 30 minutes.
So we see time measurements are arbitrary standards to compare the decay, growth and change of matter in the universe. With this definition, God now is outside of decay, growth and change for He is not affected nor effected by any of these tangible effects.
Since time does not exist, God is always in the here and now, whether the beginning or end of what we understand to be a beginning and end. He is tending to His creation, going through all the cycles of life, allowing us to make decisions, nudging us at times to do what we ought, turning His face away from us as in Deuteronomy 31:17-18 and 32:20 and in the NT 1 Peter 3:12 . A thread should be started just on those passages as to what that implies.
God knows all the possibilities of future events, but few are set in stone; we make decisions of free will that affect which ones take place. All lead towards the events of Revelation and the end of this world. How we get there is not decided. I think this is why the church age of soon to be 2000 years was not in prophecy. Just as if you are traveling from New York to Los Angeles, the decision to leave New York and arrive in LA is made, but how you get there can lead you on roads too many to count. Should we take the narrow road or the broad path?
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Proverbs 16:9
Amens/Likes:
KingJ
God asks questions, not because He doesn't know, but to get us to focus on our situation - Jesus at the well with the woman with all the husbands; Adam hiding from God... He knows full well, just like when we ask our kids "Where are you" when they're standing right in front of you with their hands over their eyes "hiding" that's what we are to God. Nothing is hidden from God. Think about it, He made the universe, it's impossible to hide anything from God. Our limited ability to grasp and understand God limits our ability to understand God. It's very circular...
Amens/Likes:
Juk
Yes, it all centers around / points to free will. No free will is evil. God is not evil. God is as good as He is great. Just because we cannot grasp Him does not excuse us making ridiculous assumptions. Especially when we do know that He made us, died for us and all living can today choose to accept or reject Him.
Amens/Likes:
Big Moose
I just want to say, I think its awesome that you're even interested in theology at your age. I didn't even k ow what omniscience meant at your age lol.
First, as stated before, God created time and space, and is outside of both. He can see all of history at once, he's not trapped inside of time like us. Nothing has or will happen that he's not aware of already.
I think what has you confused is thinking that, first, because things may look to you or me like they went wrong, or didn't go according to plan (people becoming evil, resulting in the judgement of the flood) God didn't know it was going to happen in the first place or that it wasn't his plan all along. And second, that because Abraham had to choose whether or not to proceed with the sacrifice of his son, that God must not have known what Abraham would do.
Just because there may be different possible outcomes to a situation (Abraham), or just because it seems to us that God could have prevented something from happening and it wasn't what he wanted, doesn't mean that's the case.
Think of the cross. First, something seemingly terrible happening (God, in Christ, being wrongfully executed as a criminal) was exactly according to God's plan, and it was actually the greatest thing that has ever happened in all of history. Also, the Jews reaction to Jesus, Judas's betrayal, Pilate's involvement, the trial of Jesus, His sentencing. All of these events could have went another way, and seem to be left up to the human's decision, but God was in control the whole way, guiding everything to happen according to His plan.
It's one of the greatest mysteries of the Bible, and of the nature of God and Man (human free will / God's providence or guiding of history), but somehow, while it seems like history is determined only by the decisions of men, God is actually guiding things according to His plans.
Stay in the word, young friend. Once you grow in your knowledge of scripture, you will see it will begin to answer itself.
First, as stated before, God created time and space, and is outside of both. He can see all of history at once, he's not trapped inside of time like us. Nothing has or will happen that he's not aware of already.
I think what has you confused is thinking that, first, because things may look to you or me like they went wrong, or didn't go according to plan (people becoming evil, resulting in the judgement of the flood) God didn't know it was going to happen in the first place or that it wasn't his plan all along. And second, that because Abraham had to choose whether or not to proceed with the sacrifice of his son, that God must not have known what Abraham would do.
Just because there may be different possible outcomes to a situation (Abraham), or just because it seems to us that God could have prevented something from happening and it wasn't what he wanted, doesn't mean that's the case.
Think of the cross. First, something seemingly terrible happening (God, in Christ, being wrongfully executed as a criminal) was exactly according to God's plan, and it was actually the greatest thing that has ever happened in all of history. Also, the Jews reaction to Jesus, Judas's betrayal, Pilate's involvement, the trial of Jesus, His sentencing. All of these events could have went another way, and seem to be left up to the human's decision, but God was in control the whole way, guiding everything to happen according to His plan.
It's one of the greatest mysteries of the Bible, and of the nature of God and Man (human free will / God's providence or guiding of history), but somehow, while it seems like history is determined only by the decisions of men, God is actually guiding things according to His plans.
Stay in the word, young friend. Once you grow in your knowledge of scripture, you will see it will begin to answer itself.
Amens/Likes:
Juk