I’m confused about why the the census David ordered was sinful when verse 1 states God “caused,” “moved,” or “stirred” David to do so. This has always puzzled me. Any thoughts or insights? Thank you!
II Sam 24 Question
- Thread starter Jsmith1211
- Start date
The Scripture you are referring to is 2 Samuel 24:1 or at least that is the one I am referring to………...…….
"Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
The KJV says "KINDLED".
God had told David at the very beginning of his rule to number the people. God wanted it done to encourage David so that he would know that there was a great army behind him.
Now in 2 Sam. 24 David is an old man.
If God had indeed commanded David to number Israel, it could not have been a sin for him to have done so.
The true solution of what some view as a difficulty lies in 1 Chronicles 21:1, where it is flatly declared that, "Satan stood up against Israel, and incited David to number Israel."
God does not move men to do certain things and then punish them for it. That principle is made clear in the Exodus example of God's hardening Pharaoh's heart. That was done by the Lord only at a time subsequent to the ten-fold Biblical statement that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. God always allows the triumph of man's own free will; and, in doing so, what God thus allows is very properly said by the sacred writers to have been done by the Lord.
That is exactly the situation here. David was determined to number Israel, knowing full well that it was a sin for him to do so for the purposes which he had in mind. The temptation had come from Satan himself (as stated in Chronicles), and in all probability via the mouth of some of David's associates or advisers. David went forward with that determination despite solemn warnings from Joab. God is here said to have done it in the sense that, knowing David's willful heart, he allowed it.
2 Samuel 24 - Coffman's Commentaries on the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
2 Samuel 24, Coffman's Commentaries on the Bible, James Burton Coffman's commentary on the Bible is widely regarded for its thorough analysis of the text and practical application to everyday life. It remains a valuable resource for Christians seeking a deeper understanding of the Scriptures.
www.studylight.org
It is confusing isn't it. The Lord incited David against Israel and told him to initiate a Census. Then David feels guilty, as if he's sinned, and God hearing this gives David three choices for punishment from God for that sin. David chooses three days of plague.
However, if David felt he'd wronged Israel, and was wrong in numbering even their soldiers, how would suffering three days of plague be repentance for that sin David perceived he'd committed when plague would seriously wrong all people of Israel who suffered it. And then David builds an altar so that the plague he chose of God's three options for his suffering due to David's perceived sin in conducting the Census would be averted.
How could David feel he'd done wrong when he did only what God ordered?
I've yet to find a commentary on the passage that explains it.
I find it is especially vexing when God agrees with David that David has sinned in carrying out the numbering of the Israelite people.
Great thread. Maybe someone can find something that informs more than the entire of chapter 24 does.
2 Samuel 24:1 Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
The Lord's Judgment of David's Sin
2 Samuel 24:10 But David's heart struck him after he had numbered the people. And David said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. But now, O Lord, please take away the iniquity of your servant, for I have done very foolishly.” 11 And when David arose in the morning, the word of the Lord came to the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying, 12 “Go and say to David, ‘Thus says the Lord, Three things I offer[e] you. Choose one of them, that I may do it to you.’” 13 So Gad came to David and told him, and said to him, “Shall three[f] years of famine come to you in your land? Or will you flee three months before your foes while they pursue you? Or shall there be three days' pestilence in your land? Now consider, and decide what answer I shall return to him who sent me.” 14 Then David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Let us fall into the hand of the Lord, for his mercy is great; but let me not fall into the hand of man.”
15 So the Lord sent a pestilence on Israel from the morning until the appointed time. And there died of the people from Dan to Beersheba 70,000 men. 16 And when the angel stretched out his hand toward Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord relented from the calamity and said to the angel who was working destruction among the people, “It is enough; now stay your hand.” And the angel of the Lord was by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite. 17 Then David spoke to the Lord when he saw the angel who was striking the people, and said, “Behold, I have sinned, and I have done wickedly. But these sheep, what have they done? Please let your hand be against me and against my father's house.”
That is exactly the situation here. David was determined to number Israel, knowing full well that it was a sin for him to do so for the purposes which he had in mind. The temptation had come from Satan himself (as stated in Chronicles), and in all probability via the mouth of some of David's associates or advisers. David went forward with that determination despite solemn warnings from Joab. God is here said to have done it in the sense that, knowing David's willful heart, he allowed it.2 Samuel 24 - Coffman's Commentaries on the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
2 Samuel 24, Coffman's Commentaries on the Bible, James Burton Coffman's commentary on the Bible is widely regarded for its thorough analysis of the text and practical application to everyday life. It remains a valuable resource for Christians seeking a deeper understanding of the Scriptures.
Hello QuintessenceOfDust;
Great question and I agree with you. This Passage is challenging and Major offers a good study note of David's sin. God incited David to take a census of the whole, men, women and children in Israel and Judah. God wanted to show that He would protect His people despite how numerous they were. Instead, David took a census of the military's great numbers revealing his pride because of the strength of the army, thus taking away God's glory.
Point is, how many of us take a census of our security, finances, possessions or our nation ahead of God. 2 Samuel 24 teaches us that despite how plenty or little, God is still our first reliance and strength over all.
I hope this helps.
God bless you, QuintessenceOfDust and your family.
1 Chronicles 21:1 is a "paradelle" Scripture.
As the books of Scripture are arranged in our Version, Satan is here for the first time by name introduced to us. He appears not merely as an “adversary” who seeks to injure man from without, but as a Tempter able to ruin him by suggesting sinful acts and thoughts from within. In this point of view, the revelation made of him here is the most advanced that we find in the Old Testament.
The difficulty in reconciling the statement here, “Satan provoked David,” etc. with that of Samuel, “the Lord moved David,”. 2 Samuel 24:1 is not serious.
All temptation is permitted by God. When evil spirits tempt us, they do so by permission (Job 1:12; Job 2:6; Luke 22:31, etc.).
If Satan therefore provoked David to number the peopIe, God allowed him. And what God allows, He may be said to do.
Great insight! I had not considered this. Thank you!!
Yea I thought so thanks Major, it does make sense now. Good to read the parallel scripture.
It is like when God allowed satan to get to Job to have calamities befall him.
Also when Jesus was tempted by satan in the wilderness, he was actually led into the wilderness by the spirit, the difference is Jesus recognised satan and refused the temptation.
It is like when God allowed satan to get to Job to have calamities befall him.
Also when Jesus was tempted by satan in the wilderness, he was actually led into the wilderness by the spirit, the difference is Jesus recognised satan and refused the temptation.
"When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone." (James 1:13)
I am not sure what you are trying to say. Maybe you could clarify your thoughts for us.
If you are suggesting that James is somehow supporting the idea of God promoting sin in 2 Samuel 24:1 then I have to disagree with you.
IF you are saying that God does not tempt us with eveil then I am on your side my brother.
Allow me the opportunity to try something else for you.
To understand the Bible we always have to get the other side of the story or as I have said...CONTEXT! I must not have said it correctly but in 2 Samuel we have Man's viewpoint of those recorded events. There is appears at first glance that God is angry with Israel and He had David do this which looks sinful.
However, when we look at 1 Chronicles 21:1 we are told God's viewpoint of it..........a parallel Scripture from a different viewpoint:
" And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."
Who provoked David to sin??? It was Satan.
God merely permitted Satan to do that because He was angry with Israel and their sin.
Now then, who is responsible for our propensity to do evil. What causes us to sin?? You will probably say ..........
Well you just said that is it Satan. Is it????????
You quoted James 1:13 now allow me to quote the very next verse in James 1:14..........
"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed."
Who is responsible when we are drawn away to do evil??????
When we give in to temptation who is to blame????
God????
Satan???
NO! The Scriptures right here say that WE are the guilty party.
One of the great failures of man is the need he has to blame someone else for his own failures. The problems we have are in in the individual. NO outside thing or influence can make us to sin. The trouble is within us with the old nature that we have. We all have our peculiarities.
One person may be tempted to drink alcohol, another to eat to much another it may be sex another it may be stealing and lies but those are all things that come from the heart of man.
Matthew 15:19................
"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander."
Proverbs 23:7.................
"For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee."
James says to us that it is of our own lust from within that we are drawn away into sin.
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Thank you for the kind words and if there is ever something I can be of help to you please ask. That is why a lot of us are on this web site.
God bless!
Yes sister. Bless you !
Don't you think James was clear enough? Perhaps the whole chapter would put it into proper perspective. My apologies for not linking that. Here it is as linked to the Greek Interlinear version so as to have the relevant words defined in Strong's. Just click the Greek word and the Strong's link will appear in a column on the right.
Bible Gateway passage: James 1 - Mounce Reverse Interlinear New Testament
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes in the dispersion: Greetings. Consider it sheer joy, my brothers, when you encounter various kinds of trials, because you know that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance carry out its intended...
I've put the concerning text, 1 Chronicles, to bold so as to address my query specifically.The Scripture you are referring to is 2 Samuel 24:1 or at least that is the one I am referring to………...…….
"Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
The KJV says "KINDLED".
God had told David at the very beginning of his rule to number the people. God wanted it done to encourage David so that he would know that there was a great army behind him.
Now in 2 Sam. 24 David is an old man.
If God had indeed commanded David to number Israel, it could not have been a sin for him to have done so.
The true solution of what some view as a difficulty lies in 1 Chronicles 21:1, where it is flatly declared that, "Satan stood up against Israel, and incited David to number Israel."
God does not move men to do certain things and then punish them for it. That principle is made clear in the Exodus example of God's hardening Pharaoh's heart. That was done by the Lord only at a time subsequent to the ten-fold Biblical statement that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. God always allows the triumph of man's own free will; and, in doing so, what God thus allows is very properly said by the sacred writers to have been done by the Lord.
That is exactly the situation here. David was determined to number Israel, knowing full well that it was a sin for him to do so for the purposes which he had in mind. The temptation had come from Satan himself (as stated in Chronicles), and in all probability via the mouth of some of David's associates or advisers. David went forward with that determination despite solemn warnings from Joab. God is here said to have done it in the sense that, knowing David's willful heart, he allowed it.
2 Samuel 24 - Coffman's Commentaries on the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
2 Samuel 24, Coffman's Commentaries on the Bible, James Burton Coffman's commentary on the Bible is widely regarded for its thorough analysis of the text and practical application to everyday life. It remains a valuable resource for Christians seeking a deeper understanding of the Scriptures.
The reason being your assertion: "The true solution of what some view as a difficulty lies in 1 Chronicles 21:1, where it is flatly declared that, "Satan stood up against Israel, and incited David to number Israel." "
Might cause a new student of the scriptures to think that your statement about Satan standing up and inciting David to number Israel, (in 2 Samuel 24, which is the scripture of concern in the OP), means that the author of 2nd Samuel 24 mistook God's ordering king David to number Israel for what was actually Satan.
Perhaps this will help in the understanding of the passage in 2nd Samuel. I did some research due to your remarks and I thank you for those as it did concern me and set me off on that quest.
This may help the entire discussion. And it explains why what would appear as the 2nd Samuel author mistaking Satan for God, per he revelation of 1 Chronicles 21:1 that you posted. The solution to the inconsistency between 1 Chronicles and 2nd Samuel is underlined and in bolded text below.
(Excerpted)
"Who wrote 1 Chronicles in the Bible?
The Book of Chronicles was probably written shortly after the Return from the Babylonian Exile, by an anonymous author. It is clearly based on the Deuteronomic History (Joshua, Judges, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings and 2 Kings), with changes to remove some obvious inconsistencies and to suit the theology of the time. During the Christian Era, The Book of Chronicles was split into tow books, 1 Chronicles and 2 Chronicles, due to the difficulty of fitting the entire text onto a single roll of papyrus.
The author of the Book of Chronicles was anonymous, so we therefore do not know who wrote 1 Chronicles or 2 Chronicles. The author is simply referred to as "the Chronicler". Because of similarities in style, he may also have been the author of the Books of Ezra and Nehemiah. " https://www.answers.com/Q/Who_wrote_1_Chronicles_in_the_Bible
Further reading concerning 2nd Samuel.
Why is Second Samuel so important?
First Samuel introduces the monarchy of Israel, and 2 Samuel chronicles the establishment of the Davidic dynasty and the expansion of Israel under God’s chosen leader. The book opens as David learned of Saul’s death. His lament over the deaths of Saul and of Jonathan (2 Samuel 1:19–27), David’s unlikely best friend, demonstrated David’s personal grief over their demise. The Lord soon set David over the tribe of Judah (2:4) and then over all Israel as His anointed king (5:3), uniting all twelve tribes into a tight-knit nation. More:
Book of Second Samuel Overview - Insight for Living Ministries
The obvious inconsistency would be the confusion of 2nd Samuel 24, written before 1 Chronicles, reporting it was God who ordered the Census. While 1 Chronicles 21:1 tells us it was Satan. Being the authors of both papyrus are anonymous in that the texts do not state categorically who was the author, which is it? God, in the first accounting of the Census? Or Satan, per 1 Chronicles 1?
I think if we argue Satan did this with God's permission then we are altering what is reported as the purpose of 2nd Samuel, (linked above). To correct inconsistencies. In this case that in 1Chronicles 21:1. And also, Job's trials a separate matter, we are arguing that God and his adversary are co-conspirators in our suffering on earth . That God allows Satan to do his worst is to imply Satan is serving God's purpose. (Matthew 6)
This link compares 2nd Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21. It doesn't alleviate the confusion, rather it imparts the idea that Satan and God conspire together in human lives. And this is accordance with all things being God's will, plan, and for his glory because God is Sovereign. Psalms 115, Acts 4, Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Which adds in my opinion to our confusion. Because of what we know about God's plans for Satan and his angels in the end. Satan worked with God to bring harm to man, Satan even visited God to collude against Job, and then in the end of days God opens Hell to receive Satan?
The link in the next to the last paragraph, "This link compares 2nd Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21..." , did not take. Here it is> https://answersingenesis.org/contra...ed-david-to-count-the-fighting-men-of-israel/I've put the concerning text, 1 Chronicles, to bold so as to address my query specifically.
The reason being your assertion: "The true solution of what some view as a difficulty lies in 1 Chronicles 21:1, where it is flatly declared that, "Satan stood up against Israel, and incited David to number Israel." "
Might cause a new student of the scriptures to think that your statement about Satan standing up and inciting David to number Israel, (in 2 Samuel 24, which is the scripture of concern in the OP), means that the author of 2nd Samuel 24 mistook God's ordering king David to number Israel for what was actually Satan.
Perhaps this will help in the understanding of the passage in 2nd Samuel. I did some research due to your remarks and I thank you for those as it did concern me and set me off on that quest.
This may help the entire discussion. And it explains why what would appear as the 2nd Samuel author mistaking Satan for God, per he revelation of 1 Chronicles 21:1 that you posted. The solution to the inconsistency between 1 Chronicles and 2nd Samuel is underlined and in bolded text below.
(Excerpted)
"Who wrote 1 Chronicles in the Bible?
The Book of Chronicles was probably written shortly after the Return from the Babylonian Exile, by an anonymous author. It is clearly based on the Deuteronomic History (Joshua, Judges, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings and 2 Kings), with changes to remove some obvious inconsistencies and to suit the theology of the time. During the Christian Era, The Book of Chronicles was split into tow books, 1 Chronicles and 2 Chronicles, due to the difficulty of fitting the entire text onto a single roll of papyrus.
The author of the Book of Chronicles was anonymous, so we therefore do not know who wrote 1 Chronicles or 2 Chronicles. The author is simply referred to as "the Chronicler". Because of similarities in style, he may also have been the author of the Books of Ezra and Nehemiah. " https://www.answers.com/Q/Who_wrote_1_Chronicles_in_the_Bible
Further reading concerning 2nd Samuel.
Why is Second Samuel so important?
First Samuel introduces the monarchy of Israel, and 2 Samuel chronicles the establishment of the Davidic dynasty and the expansion of Israel under God’s chosen leader. The book opens as David learned of Saul’s death. His lament over the deaths of Saul and of Jonathan (2 Samuel 1:19–27), David’s unlikely best friend, demonstrated David’s personal grief over their demise. The Lord soon set David over the tribe of Judah (2:4) and then over all Israel as His anointed king (5:3), uniting all twelve tribes into a tight-knit nation. More:Book of Second Samuel Overview - Insight for Living Ministries
www.insight.org
The obvious inconsistency would be the confusion of 2nd Samuel 24, written before 1 Chronicles, reporting it was God who ordered the Census. While 1 Chronicles 21:1 tells us it was Satan. Being the authors of both papyrus are anonymous in that the texts do not state categorically who was the author, which is it? God, in the first accounting of the Census? Or Satan, per 1 Chronicles 1?
I think if we argue Satan did this with God's permission then we are altering what is reported as the purpose of 2nd Samuel, (linked above). To correct inconsistencies. In this case that in 1Chronicles 21:1. And also, Job's trials a separate matter, we are arguing that God and his adversary are co-conspirators in our suffering on earth . That God allows Satan to do his worst is to imply Satan is serving God's purpose. (Matthew 6)
This link compares 2nd Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21. It doesn't alleviate the confusion, rather it imparts the idea that Satan and God conspire together in human lives. And this is accordance with all things being God's will, plan, and for his glory because God is Sovereign. Psalms 115, Acts 4, Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Which adds in my opinion to our confusion. Because of what we know about God's plans for Satan and his angels in the end. Satan worked with God to bring harm to man, Satan even visited God to collude against Job, and then in the end of days God opens Hell to receive Satan?
And to add to this in my post: "I think if we argue Satan did this with God's permission then we are altering what is reported as the purpose of 2nd Samuel, (linked above), (Adding) And also contradicts what James tells us in James 1:13"When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone." (James 1:13)
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Thank you and please keep this thread going - it is very informative !!
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Thank you and please keep this thread going - it is very informative !!
23
Would you say that Satan, as an enemy, suggested this event in Samuel as an occasion to incite a sin, just as he also put it into the heart of Judas to betray Christ???I've put the concerning text, 1 Chronicles, to bold so as to address my query specifically.
The reason being your assertion: "The true solution of what some view as a difficulty lies in 1 Chronicles 21:1, where it is flatly declared that, "Satan stood up against Israel, and incited David to number Israel." "
Might cause a new student of the scriptures to think that your statement about Satan standing up and inciting David to number Israel, (in 2 Samuel 24, which is the scripture of concern in the OP), means that the author of 2nd Samuel 24 mistook God's ordering king David to number Israel for what was actually Satan.
Perhaps this will help in the understanding of the passage in 2nd Samuel. I did some research due to your remarks and I thank you for those as it did concern me and set me off on that quest.
This may help the entire discussion. And it explains why what would appear as the 2nd Samuel author mistaking Satan for God, per he revelation of 1 Chronicles 21:1 that you posted. The solution to the inconsistency between 1 Chronicles and 2nd Samuel is underlined and in bolded text below.
(Excerpted)
"Who wrote 1 Chronicles in the Bible?
The Book of Chronicles was probably written shortly after the Return from the Babylonian Exile, by an anonymous author. It is clearly based on the Deuteronomic History (Joshua, Judges, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings and 2 Kings), with changes to remove some obvious inconsistencies and to suit the theology of the time. During the Christian Era, The Book of Chronicles was split into tow books, 1 Chronicles and 2 Chronicles, due to the difficulty of fitting the entire text onto a single roll of papyrus.
The author of the Book of Chronicles was anonymous, so we therefore do not know who wrote 1 Chronicles or 2 Chronicles. The author is simply referred to as "the Chronicler". Because of similarities in style, he may also have been the author of the Books of Ezra and Nehemiah. " https://www.answers.com/Q/Who_wrote_1_Chronicles_in_the_Bible
Further reading concerning 2nd Samuel.
Why is Second Samuel so important?
First Samuel introduces the monarchy of Israel, and 2 Samuel chronicles the establishment of the Davidic dynasty and the expansion of Israel under God’s chosen leader. The book opens as David learned of Saul’s death. His lament over the deaths of Saul and of Jonathan (2 Samuel 1:19–27), David’s unlikely best friend, demonstrated David’s personal grief over their demise. The Lord soon set David over the tribe of Judah (2:4) and then over all Israel as His anointed king (5:3), uniting all twelve tribes into a tight-knit nation. More:Book of Second Samuel Overview - Insight for Living Ministries
The obvious inconsistency would be the confusion of 2nd Samuel 24, written before 1 Chronicles, reporting it was God who ordered the Census. While 1 Chronicles 21:1 tells us it was Satan. Being the authors of both papyrus are anonymous in that the texts do not state categorically who was the author, which is it? God, in the first accounting of the Census? Or Satan, per 1 Chronicles 1?
I think if we argue Satan did this with God's permission then we are altering what is reported as the purpose of 2nd Samuel, (linked above). To correct inconsistencies. In this case that in 1Chronicles 21:1. And also, Job's trials a separate matter, we are arguing that God and his adversary are co-conspirators in our suffering on earth . That God allows Satan to do his worst is to imply Satan is serving God's purpose. (Matthew 6)
This link compares 2nd Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21. It doesn't alleviate the confusion, rather it imparts the idea that Satan and God conspire together in human lives. And this is accordance with all things being God's will, plan, and for his glory because God is Sovereign. Psalms 115, Acts 4, Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Which adds in my opinion to our confusion. Because of what we know about God's plans for Satan and his angels in the end. Satan worked with God to bring harm to man, Satan even visited God to collude against Job, and then in the end of days God opens Hell to receive Satan?
The difficulty in reconciling the statement in Chronicles and 2 Samuel “Satan . . . moved David,” …………………..., “the Lord moved David,” is not problematic. All temptation is permitted by God, but not caused by God.
When evil spirits tempt us, they do so by permission. Satan therefore provoked David to number the people, and God allowed him to do so. God allows those things which serve to advance His holy and perfect will.
From...…….
https://answersingenesis.org/contra...ed-david-to-count-the-fighting-men-of-israel/
"The author of 2 Samuel (probably the prophets Nathan or Gad) chose to view this whole affair in the ultimate sense of God being in control of all things, while the author of 1 Chronicles (probably Ezra) wanted to showcase the satanic plot and how God used this as a tool for judgment. It is the same account with a different point of emphasis. This also makes sense, for Nathan and Gad were prophets who proclaimed that God is in control of all the affairs of men, and knows and predicts events before they come to pass. Ezra was a priest who was interested in pointing out the holiness of God, and as one who hates sin—treason and idolatry being two of the most heinous, and the two which Israel were most prone to. The “takeaway” point here is that God judges and punishes sin, and purges out the leaven of sin from His people (cf. 1 Corinthians 5:6–8). Satan meant it for evil for David and for Israel, but God ultimately meant it for good in the long run of the nation, and so allowed Satan to provoke David."
This also corresponds to what I have already posted in that there are teo views of this event. One from Gods perspective and one from man's.
Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible
1 Chronicles 21:1-13. David sins in numbering the people.
Satan stood up against Israel — God, by withdrawing His grace at this time from David (see on 2 Samuel 24:1), permitted the tempter to prevail over him. As the result of this successful temptation was the entail of a heavy calamity as a punishment from God upon the people, it might be said that “Satan stood up against Israel.”
Hawker's Poor Man's Commentary
CONTENTS
This chapter represents David in a very different point of view from the former. There we beheld him most lovely in his humbleness before the Lord. In this, in a state of transgression, numbering his people. Here is an account also, of God's visitation and David's punishment.
1 Chronicles 21:1
This memorable - transaction of the numbering of Israel, is recorded both in this place and in the 24th chapter of the 2d Book of Samuel. And the accounts given in both, serve to throw light upon each other. In the account given in the Book of Samuel, it is said, that the anger of the Lord being kindled against Israel, he moved David against them. In this verse the matter is explained. It was not the Lord that moved David, but Satan, that is, the, adversary - the tempter.
James, the apostle, throws the best light upon this subject in James 1:13-14...…….
" Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man. But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust".
The sense is, that the enemy, taking advantage of God's displeasure at that time against Israel, moved David to the dreadful sin of distrusting God, in counting the number of Israel; not considering that God saveth not by many or by few.
Apologies for my part if my external information links contained advertising. I have a very good ad-blocker on my browser and I do not see such things. I would not have offered those site links had I been aware. Thank you for the positive feedback concerning the thread itself. I agree.
I think if we go on the premise that Satan stood up against Israel and God withdrew his grace from Israel so this could happen that we arrive at the same point; God conspired with his rival to let Israel suffer Satan.
Also, I would wonder at how we reconcile the idea that all temptation is permitted by God but is not caused by God when God is omniscient and sovereign. It all sounds to collusive for me. God permits but does not cause that which will lead the unsaved to eternal damnation under God and his judgment. It sounds as if we're pawns and God and Satan work together to show that everyone needs God so as to be saved from Satan. While Satan is a collaborator with God to deliver that inference.
James tells us each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Those desires are innate to the human condition. And yet we're still made in the image and likeness of God our creator. And after the fall, the consuming of the fruit of the tree of knowledge concerning the good and the evil, we are also, as God said, possessed of that same knowledge as he had.
And also, God is the darkness and the light. The evil and the good. (Isaiah 45) He being sovereign creator created Lucifer. Could Lucifer have surprised him in Heaven when leading the rebellion? And why would God let him to live and lead perfect innocence into damnation so that sin passed from the first man into all humans thereafter?
Perhaps it is as you have outlined. To play the game between good and evil. To permit all that happens but not be the cause. Which as creator would be near impossible wouldn't it? Being God is source for all things that are anything.
And a side note concerning Judas, as you mentioned him.
How would Jesus have completed his earthly mission were it not for Judas being part of God's divine plan to get him there?
Aren't we getting into the "Freedom of Choice" doctrine?
Also, one of the things that might help us in this conversation is that the Hebrew word used in Gen. 22:1 as "Tempted" is actually the word NACAH which means to "Try or prove, assay or put to the proof or test".
So then when we read the story we see that God did not intend for Abraham to kill Issac but Abraham did not know that and he was going to kill his son.
As we read the account of the event, we note that God did not intend Abraham to complete the sacrifice of Isaac. Abraham believed God would raise him from the dead. So then we have this...……"Abraham was "TRIED" instead of Tempted.
That speaks then of an evualation of someone or thing.
So then when we come to James 1:13.....he gives a guiding principle:
no one has the right to say that he has been tempted “of God.” The word “of” is essential to our understanding this statement, because it indicates the origin of something.
Temptations to sin do not originate with God. James concludes: God cannot be tempted with evil, and God does not tempt anyone to sin.
Another important word in this discussion is found in James 1:3 ...……..
“My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into various trials; Knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.”
The Greek word translated “trials” denotes trouble, or something that breaks the pattern of peace, comfort, joy and happiness in someone’s life. The verb form of this word means “to put someone or something to the test,” with the purpose of discovering that person’s nature or that thing’s quality. God brings such tests to prove—and increase—the strength and quality of one’s faith and to demonstrate its validity (vv. 2-12). So, according to James, when we face temptations, God’s purpose is to prove our faith and produce character. That is a high, good, noble motive.
(https://www.gotquestions.org/God-tempt-us-to-sin.html)
Are there temptations which are designed to make us fail? Yes, but they do not come from God—they come from Satan (Matt. 4:1), his evil angels (Eph. 6:12), and as I stated already, from ourselves (Rom 13:14, Gal. 5:13). God allows us to experience them, and they are allowed for our benefit. God told Abraham to offer Isaac—the temptation was not intended to get Abraham to sin, but to test and prove his faith.
As for Judas, John 13:2 says............….
It was not God but...…….
"The evening meal was in progress, and the devil had already prompted Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, to betray Jesus.
Instead of resisting, Judas yielded to that satanic influence.
In any case, Judas had the full capacity of making his choice—at least up to the point where John 13:27 says that “Satan entered into him” —and God’s foreknowledge in no way supersedes Judas’ ability to make any given choice. Rather, what Judas would choose eventually, God saw as if it was a present observation, and Jesus made it clear that Judas was responsible for his choice and would be held accountable for it.
Mark 14:18......……...
“I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me—one who is eating with me”.
Notice that Jesus characterizes Judas’ participation as a betrayal. And regarding accountability for this betrayal Jesus said in Mark 14:21.....
“Woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born”.
Satan, too, had a part in this, as we see in John 13:26-27, and he, too, will be held accountable for his deeds. God in His wisdom was able, as always, to manipulate even Satan’s rebellion for the benefit of mankind. Satan helped send Jesus to the cross, and on the cross sin and death were defeated, and now God’s provision of salvation is freely available to all who receive Jesus Christ as Savior.
https://www.gotquestions.org/God-tempt-us-to-sin.html)
Blessings to you my brother.
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Very interesting comments! I thought of just adding my comments here. I think it boils down to this question - If God is sovereign, does it mean God is responsible for evil? By permitting evil, is God causing evil or being responsible for evil? One thing that helped me on this question is to understand what sin is. What evil is. Sin is basically falling short of God's standard. Not meeting moral standards of God. Sin is not a thing or spirit or being to be created. Sin was not created by God. Sin was not created by lucifer. Sin is basically lack of moral standards. Lucifer first showed this. And then it was Adam and Eve. As we came through Adam and Eve, we are born with sin. With this, it should be clear that God does not cause sin or God is not responsible for sin. Everyone sin by not meeting the moral standards of God. The second part is, only God is able to save people from Sin. Only God is able to limit the ramifications of sin (death itself). Why does God still allow sin to exist if He has complete authority over forgiveness of sin? For this I don't know if there is an answer. We cannot make God responsible for evil because He does not stop it. Why He does not stop it? Probably the only way Bible addresses this through Paul - Can clay question potter?