I'm An Athiest!! (this Is Hard Being A Christian Part 2)
- Thread starter Lifeasweknowit
- Start date
Read it. I love Colossians.
Yes, I understand all of this.
Free will. Why does she not know Jesus name? Why will she go to hell for something she couldn't control?
I want to encourage you to continue to examine beliefs and theories and all that until you feel comfortable with the beliefs you hold. People will tell you that "if you don't believe this-or-that doctrine than you're not a christian"... but that is not necessarily the case. Believe it or not, outside of our American evangelicalism, there are other beliefs within the Christian religion!
I don't think God anticipates for us to always feel "comfortable" with what the Word says. In fact, if that was the case, everyone would twist the Word the way they like it to be "comfortable" Christians. Being Christian is tough and not meant to be easy. Take a look at the scriptures I posted above from John.
Yes.
Yes. To what extent, we don't know.
I believe they do. Hence, the exhausting number of threads with similar, if not the same, questions (and numerous answers) on this forum site.
Could you name a few?
I will share my ideas on some of the issues you brought up if you would like. I will also provide, if you want, some resources for study if you would like, that aren't just "don't let doubt win" diatribes. For now I'll just stick to encouragement
Thank you for the encouragement in me reaching out for some answers
Why do you say she will go to hell?
I guess here is one scripture:
1 John 5:12
John 3:36
1 John 5:12
John 3:36
First we must grasp that the requirements to come to God have never changed.
Psalms 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. James 2:25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?. Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. Deuteronomy 4:29 But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul. Proverbs 8:17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness. Jude 1:58 Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones.
Then, consider those in Abrahams bosom. Why did they go there and not straight to heaven? Nobody can be in God's presence until they are covered by the blood of Jesus. They were waiting for Him. As for us, there is no need to wait. God reaches out to all of us by the Holy Spirit. In the NT He (the Holy Spirit) reveals Jesus to us 1 Cor 12:3. Rejecting Jesus now becomes rejecting God. If He hasn't reached out to some (OT or NT), they would obviously be exempt as God is just.
But, the thing is, God has reached out to all (Rom 1:20). Only really children and mentally handicapped are exempt. So what John says is true and makes sense John 14:6 He is the way the truth and the life, nobody comes to the Father but by Him.
Psalms 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. James 2:25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?. Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. Deuteronomy 4:29 But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul. Proverbs 8:17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness. Jude 1:58 Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones.
Then, consider those in Abrahams bosom. Why did they go there and not straight to heaven? Nobody can be in God's presence until they are covered by the blood of Jesus. They were waiting for Him. As for us, there is no need to wait. God reaches out to all of us by the Holy Spirit. In the NT He (the Holy Spirit) reveals Jesus to us 1 Cor 12:3. Rejecting Jesus now becomes rejecting God. If He hasn't reached out to some (OT or NT), they would obviously be exempt as God is just.
But, the thing is, God has reached out to all (Rom 1:20). Only really children and mentally handicapped are exempt. So what John says is true and makes sense John 14:6 He is the way the truth and the life, nobody comes to the Father but by Him.
Is this more what your looking for?:
Point #1 All creatures inherently (instinctively) are created towards the inclination of knowledge of the Creator. I think we covered that already.
Point #2 Sin separated us from God-Separation was God's reaction/punishment for disobedience/ rebellion> I think we covered that already.
Point #3 IF the creation was living a faithful life in worship to the Creator (thankfulness), EVERY generation-every family, every individual would be exposed to the knowledge of the creator from Birth-generation, after generation, after generation, etc, etc, etc...
Point #4 IF Parents taught their children the ways and knowledge of God from birth-a child would not be neglected in the Word. (Noah)
Point #5 'Sin is pleasurable for season'; the Creation (generations of individuals getting together and having family's) have chosen to be 'willfully ignorant' and remain blind to the truth. Their personal choice is also their own personal condemnation. Does that mean that their children who have never been taught anything will go to Hell? Well probably-but I am assuming that there are multiple layers of circumstances that we don't comprehend spiritually. Is it possible for people to be saved without hearing the actually testimony of the person Jesus Christ? YES! See points 1-4. Since there is but One God-if that heart is right with the One God-I believe it is possible for salvation...
Point #6 IF a heart seeks the Lord and Truth-God will make sure that heart is cultivated towards Himself. (Abram, Jacob, Moses & the burning bush...)
Point #7 God made His presence well known to the creation from the beginning of each 'age': Adam and Eve at origin, Noah and his family post flood, Moses & the children of Israel during the Exodus, Jews & Gentiles WALKED, were healed and experienced the miracles of Jesus Christ.
Point #8 The creation rejects God to serve itself and will ultimately fail without God's presence. We have multiple examples of this in Bible history and in secular history. If you believe the Bible-no country, no culture, no race, no land mass/ continent has any excuse to not be in love with God from the dawn of time.
Point #9 God through Jesus Christ commissioned believers to reach all races, all cultures, all land masses/ continents to PREACH THE GOSPEL to those generations-families -individuals who have strayed from His love. The choice is still theirs....
Point #10 There is a spiritual timeline we do not comprehend; the human race on this planet (the creation) has an expiration date for when the Lord will return for the final harvest. This is why it is important to reach as many with the Gospel of truth as possible.
Oh BTW Tink: I think I get your thread title now-You are asking questions AS IF you were an Atheist to garner future knowledge when dealing with Atheists, correct?
You women and your brains-us dudes don't think like that....
It's good you have a heart to want to reach your friends-I would never tell you to give up. I still annoy my family with tracts, 'Jesus' orientated Christmas cards and gospel emails. But keep in mind-most people don't want to be found. And it is devastating to the heart-this is the danger in loving people.
'Many are called-but few will answer'; 'Here am I, Lord?'
You women and your brains-us dudes don't think like that....
It's good you have a heart to want to reach your friends-I would never tell you to give up. I still annoy my family with tracts, 'Jesus' orientated Christmas cards and gospel emails. But keep in mind-most people don't want to be found. And it is devastating to the heart-this is the danger in loving people.
'Many are called-but few will answer'; 'Here am I, Lord?'
I will never give up.
Im sorry you're having trouble Tink, this Jesus never said this journey would be an easy one..... I'd have lots of questions that make me question God and sometimes still do.. if I think long and hard about them, it'd be anough to make me walk away.. but faith is trusting in God when you don't know everything..and whats more when we get to heaven.. all of our questions will be answered..... whats the point in turning away when he'll answer you..maybe not on your time but His. I know how frustrating it can be to have all these Questions and no answers, just go to my profile and look through my threads and you'll see all my complaining threads XD lol .... but I think it important to remebr that jesus is God for a reason, he's capable , qualified, and just......
about the dream thing, its not totally rubbish, after I got saved I had a dream of my and my brothers in a dark pit and golden stairs appeared and we ran up them... so it wasn't nonsense.... I forget which book but it says that God will pour his spirit out on us and we'll dream dreams and what not... BUT God communicates with everyone differently... if you expect him to only communicate w/ you through dreams you're limiting Him... but ultimately I think the evidence of your salvation is shown through youre changed lifestyle... If i were to completely depart from Christ then my dream would mean nothing ..it would just be what could have been, you know? theres no once saved always saved
you gotta endure to the end..
Diligence; this is a problem area for me too b/c so many things get in the way..... I remeber watching one of Jocye's shows..or reading it from her book im not sure which and she said .. something similar to 'If you think about anything long enough , you'll do it" and I think thats one of the reasons why its soo important to continually mediate on God's commands and think about them constantly and then it'll come easier to us, I think.. you just have to make a conscious effort you know? I hope this helps
about the dream thing, its not totally rubbish, after I got saved I had a dream of my and my brothers in a dark pit and golden stairs appeared and we ran up them... so it wasn't nonsense.... I forget which book but it says that God will pour his spirit out on us and we'll dream dreams and what not... BUT God communicates with everyone differently... if you expect him to only communicate w/ you through dreams you're limiting Him... but ultimately I think the evidence of your salvation is shown through youre changed lifestyle... If i were to completely depart from Christ then my dream would mean nothing ..it would just be what could have been, you know? theres no once saved always saved
you gotta endure to the end.. Diligence; this is a problem area for me too b/c so many things get in the way..... I remeber watching one of Jocye's shows..or reading it from her book im not sure which and she said .. something similar to 'If you think about anything long enough , you'll do it" and I think thats one of the reasons why its soo important to continually mediate on God's commands and think about them constantly and then it'll come easier to us, I think.. you just have to make a conscious effort you know?
I hope this helpsThere are only two references in the Scriptures that I know of that make reference to children and the Kingdom:
But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.” (2 Samuel 12 23)
David sinned against God and his child was taken from him, but David states in the Scriptures that he knows he will see his child again in Heaven.
Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” (Matthew 19 14)
We know God is Just, we know God is Merciful. How could a God who is Just and Merciful hold a child accountable for something a child cannot comprehend, or never had a chance to comprehend? (Or even someone who is mentally ill for that matter?)
God is not capable of Injustice.
And we also have this;
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. (Luke 12 48)
I think it's safe to derive from Luke the antithesis; "To who nothing is given, nothing will be required."
All the aborted, the mentally ill, the children who perished before an age of accountability to sin, I expect to see them all in Heaven. It's not so much them I worry about...
But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.” (2 Samuel 12 23)
David sinned against God and his child was taken from him, but David states in the Scriptures that he knows he will see his child again in Heaven.
Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” (Matthew 19 14)
We know God is Just, we know God is Merciful. How could a God who is Just and Merciful hold a child accountable for something a child cannot comprehend, or never had a chance to comprehend? (Or even someone who is mentally ill for that matter?)
God is not capable of Injustice.
And we also have this;
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. (Luke 12 48)
I think it's safe to derive from Luke the antithesis; "To who nothing is given, nothing will be required."
All the aborted, the mentally ill, the children who perished before an age of accountability to sin, I expect to see them all in Heaven. It's not so much them I worry about...
I wanted to add this in addition to my last post about the children. I think too often we get wrapped up in emotion when we see or hear of things where children suffer and perish and we get mad at God and ask WHY, or doubt God.
James describes the life of man like a vapor that is here a moment and then gone the next, but life with The Lord is forever.
Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. (James 4 14)
I know it's extremely difficult at times, but us as Christians can take comfort in the fact that they are with The Lord and freed from the bondage of sin and in Heaven where Jesus reigns as King for all Eternity.
James describes the life of man like a vapor that is here a moment and then gone the next, but life with The Lord is forever.
Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. (James 4 14)
I know it's extremely difficult at times, but us as Christians can take comfort in the fact that they are with The Lord and freed from the bondage of sin and in Heaven where Jesus reigns as King for all Eternity.
Im sorry you're having trouble Tink, this Jesus never said this journey would be an easy one..... I'd have lots of questions that make me question God and sometimes still do.. if I think long and hard about them, it'd be anough to make me walk away.. but faith is trusting in God when you don't know everything..and whats more when we get to heaven.. all of our questions will be answered..... whats the point in turning away when he'll answer you..maybe not on your time but His. I know how frustrating it can be to have all these Questions and no answers, just go to my profile and look through my threads and you'll see all my complaining threads XD lol .... but I think it important to remebr that jesus is God for a reason, he's capable , qualified, and just......
about the dream thing, its not totally rubbish, after I got saved I had a dream of my and my brothers in a dark pit and golden stairs appeared and we ran up them... so it wasn't nonsense.... I forget which book but it says that God will pour his spirit out on us and we'll dream dreams and what not... BUT God communicates with everyone differently... if you expect him to only communicate w/ you through dreams you're limiting Him... but ultimately I think the evidence of your salvation is shown through youre changed lifestyle... If i were to completely depart from Christ then my dream would mean nothing ..it would just be what could have been, you know? theres no once saved always saved
Diligence; this is a problem area for me too b/c so many things get in the way..... I remeber watching one of Jocye's shows..or reading it from her book im not sure which and she said .. something similar to 'If you think about anything long enough , you'll do it" and I think thats one of the reasons why its soo important to continually mediate on God's commands and think about them constantly and then it'll come easier to us, I think.. you just have to make a conscious effort you know?
Thank you, sweet pancakes. I think my post misrepresented my actual feelings, and I know it is kind of long, so my apologies.
I was merely attempting to refute arguments from atheists and perhaps, I admit, have some of those questions answered for myself. The times when I doubt things as big as Jesus is when I know Satan is doing his work on me. I have to tell myself that this thought is coming from nothing more than Satan and his lies. The disciples themselves questioned Jesus and they were right in front of them. Remember in Luke Chapter 24, 13-33, where the two men where having a conversation about the recent events surrounding Jesus and the Resurrection? Jesus came to them and began walking by their side. He then asked what it was they were discussing. They continued to talk for some time and when they finally realized that it was Jesus in their presence, after He broke the bread, He vanished in front of their eyes. So we must not worry if doubt fills our mind. This scripture shows us that Jesus walks by our side no matter what. Even, if like these two men, we begin to go off path and away from him.
Hopefully this didn't come off wrong, King...sometimes writing misrepresents feelings. I just realized the question may have come off as rhetorical, but it's not.
You were addressing KingJ here, and I am not directly answering the question you posed to him. I just wanted to make note that this question on the part of an atheist seems to be a deflection. Remember in John 21:20 - 22 where Jesus is talking to Peter about his future and Peter turns around and, seeing John, asks "what about him?" Jesus' answer was, essentially, "Don't worry about him, you follow me." The atheist who is not a child, mentally ill, or otherwise incapacitated, needs to worry about himself, not how God deals with people who are not like him.
I'm lost. Can you clarify?
If you are saying I'm deflecting, I would like a clear explanation as to how since I am a very straightforward person. Perhaps my writing is coming across wrong and I need to address it.
The point of my post is that there are questions that atheists and new believers, myself including, have had or do have or that didn't have but came up from others asking those particular questions. I don't find anything wrong with inuring, God wants us to get to know him, correct? If so, that means everything about him, which can mean the difficult things as well, no?
Hope I'm not completely misinterpreting your post, Rumely....