Immaculate Conception

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MMurphy

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This was an RCC doctrine I never thought I would come to accept, but lately I've found it might in fact be plausible.

In this doctrine, Mary, Mother of God, is born without original sin and goes on to live a sinless life thereafter. I don't believe in original sin, but this doctrine came to make sense since there can be no sin in the presence of God. In that case, to carry and birth our pure Lord, she indeed would have needed to be sinless herself.
 
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This was an RCC doctrine I never thought I would come to accept, but lately I've found it might in fact be plausible.

In this doctrine, Mary, Mother of God, is born without original sin and goes on to live a sinless life thereafter. I don't believe in original sin, but this doctrine came to make sense since there can be no sin in the presence of God. In that case, to carry and birth our pure Lord, she indeed would have needed to be sinless herself.
It's a lie of the devil to cheapen the power of the Holy Spirit and the pureness of the birth of Jesus. Jesus was surrounded by sin but He Himself never committed sin because He alone was sinless. Sin is passed down through the male and Mary was born via a male (her father) so she was sinful in need of salvation like the rest of us. There is zero scripture to support any vague notion that Mary was sinless too.
 
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It's a lie of the devil to cheapen the power of the Holy Spirit and the pureness of the birth of Jesus. Jesus was surrounded by sin but He Himself never committed sin because He alone was sinless. Sin is passed down through the male and Mary was born via a male (her father) so she was sinful in need of salvation like the rest of us. There is zero scripture to support any vague notion that Mary was sinless too.
Absolutely she was a sinner.

The King made it clear ALL have sinned.
 
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No one has addressed the theological argument I just gave. How could Mary bear God if she had sinned?
Within your argument you have your answer.

"no sin in the presence of God"

Because Jesus IS God.

Mary was only a vessel, that carried God whom cannot be unrighteous.
 
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No one has addressed the theological argument I just gave. How could Mary bear God if she had sinned?
Jesus lived His life on earth surrounded by sinners. He even touched sinners. This did not contaminate Him in any way. Therefore, Mary's sinful nature would not have contaminated Him either.

The Bible insists all have sinned, which includes Mary: 1 Kings 8:46, Psalm 143:2, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Isaiah 53:6, Romans 3:9, 19, 23, 11:32, Galatians 3:22, 1 John 1:8-10, James 3:2. Mary herself called Jesus her Savior (Luke 1:47). Why would she need a Savior if she was without sin?

I believe the sin nature is passed from parent to child through the father, not the mother. It was Adam's sin, not Eve's, that led to our all suffering with a sin nature (Romans 5:12).

https://answersingenesis.org/sin/original-sin/sin-nature-passed-through-fathers-genetic-line/
 
Jul 22, 2010
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No one has addressed the theological argument I just gave. How could Mary bear God if she had sinned?
Your basic premise is flawed; that is why you see a conundrum that requires rationalization.
Jesus was God in the flesh (incarnate)
Jesus was also a man (the son of a woman).
Jesus was surrounded by sin and sinful people.
Your primary premise is in need of drastic repair.
Just off hand I can't put my finger on the reference you are using to say that there can by no sin in the presence of God.
I do recall a passage that can be taken to infer that, but my gut feeling is that what is meant is that the Lord won't put up with it..(for ever). Consider how long Satan as a sinning angel was permitted to be in God's presence.
Rom 3:10. as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11. no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Rom 3:12. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
No distinction Paul says. That means Mary is not distinct from everyone else, except though, she is blessed above all other woman as the scripture says.
But in terms of being a sinful person in need of Christ for the forgiveness of her sins, she stands shoulder to shoulder with the rest of us.
 

MMurphy

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Your basic premise is flawed; that is why you see a conundrum that requires rationalization.
Jesus was God in the flesh (incarnate)
Jesus was also a man (the son of a woman).
Jesus was surrounded by sin and sinful people.
Your primary premise is in need of drastic repair.
Just off hand I can't put my finger on the reference you are using to say that there can by no sin in the presence of God.
I do recall a passage that can be taken to infer that, but my gut feeling is that what is meant is that the Lord won't put up with it..(for ever). Consider how long Satan as a sinning angel was permitted to be in God's presence.
Rom 3:10. as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11. no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Rom 3:12. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
No distinction Paul says. That means Mary is not distinct from everyone else, except though, she is blessed above all other woman as the scripture says.
But in terms of being a sinful person in need of Christ for the forgiveness of her sins, she stands shoulder to shoulder with the rest of us.
Jesus was perfect man and perfect God. His human nature was indeed true and real, but the intimate process of being conceived in the womb of Lady Mary, I think, would necessitate her to be without sin. And I believe hades/hell was prepared as a place for eternal separation because of God's intolerance of sin. In that case, if Jesus was God, and God can have no sin within Him, Mary who bore God would probably have to be without sin also.
 
Jul 22, 2010
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As we would like it to be, does not make it so.
Can you provide Scripture to support your thinking?
There is no sin within God...true.
Jesus was within Mary, not Mary within Jesus. Even Mary's blood was stopped dead in its tracks at the placental interface, so that not even her blood entered into Jesus' body.
He was pure, His body was pure, His blood was pure.
 
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This was an RCC doctrine I never thought I would come to accept, but lately I've found it might in fact be plausible.

In this doctrine, Mary, Mother of God, is born without original sin and goes on to live a sinless life thereafter. I don't believe in original sin, but this doctrine came to make sense since there can be no sin in the presence of God. In that case, to carry and birth our pure Lord, she indeed would have needed to be sinless herself.
Your question about this doctrine is (let's call it what is) ridiculous. Let's attack this from a different angle. How do you suppose one can have a demon enter them? Demons cannot enter someone without some type of sin/permission. Jesus cast out 7 demons from Mary and after that, she became a follower of Jesus Mark 16:9.
 

MMurphy

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As we would like it to be, does not make it so.
Can you provide Scripture to support your thinking?
At present I'm not able to give s detailed biblical analysis, but from what I know of the theory, it is supported by many parallels between the Ark and Mary.

Otherwise the doctrine is mostly held as a corollary to other dogmas about God, which could be contested but which most Christians accept. The one I continue citing is that God cannot be in the presence of sin, which is not explicit but is certainly not contradicted. In any case I believe in prima scriptura so your sola bias is your own.
 

MMurphy

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Your question about this doctrine is (let's call it what is) ridiculous. Let's attack this from a different angle. How do you suppose one can have a demon enter them? Demons cannot enter someone without some type of sin/permission. Jesus cast out 7 demons from Mary and after that, she became a follower of Jesus Mark 16:9.
Mary Magdalene.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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This was an RCC doctrine I never thought I would come to accept, but lately I've found it might in fact be plausible.

In this doctrine, Mary, Mother of God, is born without original sin and goes on to live a sinless life thereafter. I don't believe in original sin, but this doctrine came to make sense since there can be no sin in the presence of God. In that case, to carry and birth our pure Lord, she indeed would have needed to be sinless herself.
Mr. MMurphy. This is one of those RCC doctrines which you and I discussed before on another thread. It was then that I told you that this was in fact a RCC doctrine and although not spoken of a lot in today's RCC churches, it is still there and just like purgatory, if it is still there it is still a valid Catholics teaching.

Now that was some time ago and I do not remember the name of the thread or when, but at that time YOU rejected out of hand my comments on this to you and said that the RCC does not do this. If my memory is correct, Larry Lysander even posted a comment that I was in fact correct. Now you are accepting it as truth.

Now as nicely as anyone can say to you, allow me to say that this teaching is completely by the RCC and no where is it found in the Scriptures.

Romans 3:23 says........
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

Was Mary included in the word "ALL"???

Romans 3:10-12
" As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none that do good, no, not one."

Was Mary included in the word NONE???

Do you see that you are rejecting the Word of God and believing the words of man's teaching the traditions of men?

The fact is.....Mary was a sinner just like you and me are. She was blessed AMONG women and was appointed the wonderful ability to give birth to the baby Jesus.


 
Jul 22, 2010
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At present I'm not able to give s detailed biblical analysis, but from what I know of the theory, it is supported by many parallels between the Ark and Mary.

Otherwise the doctrine is mostly held as a corollary to other dogmas about God, which could be contested but which most Christians accept. The one I continue citing is that God cannot be in the presence of sin, which is not explicit but is certainly not contradicted. In any case I believe in prima scriptura so your sola bias is your own.
I'm sorry you see it as bias, at least any more so that is your position biased.
I have tried to have a reasonable intelligent discussion /exploration based on Scripture, which ought by rights be common ground.
OK, so I'm off to bed as it is just past 1AM up here in Australia.
 
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At present I'm not able to give s detailed biblical analysis, but from what I know of the theory, it is supported by many parallels between the Ark and Mary.

Otherwise the doctrine is mostly held as a corollary to other dogmas about God, which could be contested but which most Christians accept. The one I continue citing is that God cannot be in the presence of sin, which is not explicit but is certainly not contradicted. In any case I believe in prima scriptura so your sola bias is your own.
The Ark IS Jesus, not Mary.

The ark carried life and faithfulness.

Jesus IS life and is faithful to his bride The Church.
 
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Have you considered the consequences that you could be implicating yourself if you are actually wrong about the Lady Mary?

I swear most Muslims have more respect for the Mother of Christ than some fundamentalists.

Do you realize that for nine months of pregnancy, the child is part of the woman's body? If God cannot be in the presence of sin, and no sin can be within Him, Mary would need to be sinless in order to conceive and bear the Lord.
It is not a matter of respect my brother. Every Christian believer I know understand the importance of Mary and what she did. NO ONE disrespects her but we as Protestants do not accept her as sinless neither do we believe we should be praying to her.

We do that because the Bible teaches it to us, not a church denomination.

Honestly......have YOU considered the consequences if YOU are wrong about Mary????

Do you really think that God wants her placed on the same level as the Lord Jesus Christ? AND if you do, please for YOUR sake post the Scriptures which you are basing your opinion on. I for one would love to know where you are coming from.
 
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As we would like it to be, does not make it so.
Can you provide Scripture to support your thinking?
There is no sin within God...true.
Jesus was within Mary, not Mary within Jesus. Even Mary's blood was stopped dead in its tracks at the placental interface, so that not even her blood entered into Jesus' body.
He was pure, His body was pure, His blood was pure.
Agreed!
 
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