Immaculate Conception

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Where is the Messiah said:
If she had to be sinless, then wouldn't her parents also have to be sinless?
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I don't see any reason for that. Like I said, I don't believe in original sin, nor does the EOC, so the immaculate conception is not really a thing for us, but as to her sinless life, I think there is a respectable theological argument there, which I have done my best to lay out.

Ravindran said:
I think Scripture points to original sin. I don't think it is fair to say it is not in scripture.

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
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We are born with the consequence of original sin (death) but not the guilt. God doesn't hold us accountable for a sin we did not commit. If you choose to believe that, you deal with the problem of unbaptized infants, which I find abhorrent to teach that they are damned to hell.
 
Major said:
WHY????

I am a saint and a born again Christian. We all argue back and forth all the time that we are all Christians so why can't I run for Pope?

Wouldn't you vote for me???

We do not baptize infants because the Bible says that to be saved one "Must believe in thine heart and say with thy mouth that Jesus is the Christ and that He died on the cross and rose from the dead and the 3rd day."

Babies can not think and can not talk! It requires a conscious thought out choice.

Then we have this............"In any case I would point out that original sin is based on the theolgy of Augestine of Hippo"

Wrong. Augustine certainly did not originate the doctrine of "original sin".

From the Catholic web site: http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2011/10/st-augustine-did-not-invent-original.html

"I have encountered a similar but more widespread problem when it comes to the doctrine of original sin and its alleged "invention" by St. Augustine of Hippo. I have seen this in textbooks, history books, historical programming, even materials put together by Catholic organizations - all asserting, almost as if it is without contest, the "fact" that the Church's teaching on original sin was an invention of St. Augustine of Hippo and is not found in either the Scriptures or the Fathers.

This baffles me, as it seems that just a cursory reading of Scripture and the Fathers, with a bit of understanding of the historical context of Augustine's teaching on original sin, is enough to disprove this oft repeated error of fact.

Nevertheless, just as it is wrong to say St. Thomas invented the Real Presence or St. Cyprian invented the concept of episcopal unity, so it is equally wrong to state that St. Augustine invented the doctrine of original sin. This error becomes culpable when done in textbooks and other contexts that are supposed to be shedding light on history but actually just obscure the facts."
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I don't adhere to the magestrium of the Catholic Church which would argue that Augustine was merely the first to recognize we are born without original sin. I believe it is an incorrect doctrine as it brings into question the justice of God.

Anyways, I don't know why you are so adamantly defending the RCC doctrine, it is not widely believed or practiced among Protestants.
 
Where is the Messiah said:
That's what I would assume. If she had to be without original sin for Jesus, then her parents would have to be without original sin for her.
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You misunderstand WITM, the hypothesis is that if Mary bore Christ with sin on her heart, she would have been consumed by the presence of God. She herself would have not consumed her parents because she was not God.

This is not a discussion about original sin. But I'll make a thread about that to help us focus this discussion.
 
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood." (Leviticus 17:11). "For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof."

The blood in a infant does not come from the mother. It is only produced after the seed of the man is injected. Mary did not need to be sinless only the seed had to be.
 
MMurphy said:
I don't adhere to the magestrium of the Catholic Church which would argue that Augustine was merely the first to recognize we are born without original sin. I believe it is an incorrect doctrine as it brings into question the justice of God.

Anyways, I don't know why you are so adamantly defending the RCC doctrine, it is not widely believed or practiced among Protestants.
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What?

You said in #21......
"In any case I would point out that original sin is based on the theolgy of Augestine of Hippo and is also not found in scripture>"

Am I reading that wrong??

I then gave you a Catholic web site that disagreed with what you said. How is that me defending RCC doctrine.????
 
CCW95A said:
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood." (Leviticus 17:11). "For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof."

The blood in a infant does not come from the mother. It is only produced after the seed of the man is injected. Mary did not need to be sinless only the seed had to be.
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So then by that thinking, Joseph should be the one immaculately conceived and then he lived his life without sin...right?

WOW! That will turn the whole world upside down want it????

I think I will write a book on this and become a millionair. The Protestants will love it but the Catholics will hate it, BUT it will sell a million copies!!!!

That is the only implication I can think of........except, what is good for goose is also good for the gander!!!!
 
Major said:
They would in my opinion. Logically what else could they be???
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That's a question I've heard many times. Putting aside what we believe in regards to Mary, sinless or not, the idea, separate from her physical being, is her spiritual being--her soul. Especially since the idea of Mary being free from original sin doesn't mean that she was perfect--only Christ is perfect.
 
Major said:
What?

You said in #21......
"In any case I would point out that original sin is based on the theolgy of Augestine of Hippo and is also not found in scripture>"

Am I reading that wrong??

I then gave you a Catholic web site that disagreed with what you said. How is that me defending RCC doctrine.????
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Major, I don't believe in original sin, and I don't believe in the catholic magestrium. Someone pointed out something that wasn't in scripture, but then defended original sin which also isn't found in scripture. I was merely pointing out the discrepancy.

You are the one defending original sin. I'm not arguing for it.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
That's a question I've heard many times. Putting aside what we believe in regards to Mary, sinless or not, the idea, separate from her physical being, is her spiritual being--her soul. Especially since the idea of Mary being free from original sin doesn't mean that she was perfect--only Christ is perfect.
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One of my catholic friends just said that the blood comes from the father. Can you see how that would cause a war????

It actually means Josheph would be the one to be immaculate and not Mary! Life is in the blood he said so..............
 
Brian Kurkjian said:
Yeah, you 'believe', where's the scripture supporting your 'belief'?
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I've said this a thousand times, but why are you asking this question? I am not a "Bible only" Christian like yourself, I look also to church teachings and sacred traditions - just as all the early Christians did.
 
Major said:
One of my catholic friends just said that the blood comes from the father. Can you see how that would cause a war????

It actually means Josheph would be the one to be immaculate and not Mary! Life is in the blood he said so..............
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What does he mean "the blood comes from the father?" I don't know what that means.
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
I've said this a thousand times, but why are you asking this question? I am not a "Bible only" Christian like yourself, I look also to church teachings and sacred traditions - just as all the early Christians did.
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So you add and subtract from the perfect Word of God in the 66 canonized books of the Bible? I'm just trying to grasp how far you deter from the Word.
 
MMurphy said:
Major, I don't believe in original sin, and I don't believe in the catholic magestrium. Someone pointed out something that wasn't in scripture, but then defended original sin which also isn't found in scripture. I was merely pointing out the discrepancy.

You are the one defending original sin. I'm not arguing for it.
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Yes, I defended original sin but not the idea you stated that it came from Augestine of Hippo in comment #53.

Original sin doctrine is certainly in the Bible brother........

Psalm 51:5 ...............
states that we all come into the world as sinners: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me."

Ephesians 2:2............
says that all people who are not in Christ are "sons of disobedience."

Ephesians 2:3 ...............also establishes this, saying that we are all "by nature children of wrath." If we are all "by nature children of wrath," it can only be because we are all by nature sinners--for God does not direct His wrath towards those who are not guilty. God did not create the human race sinful, but upright. But we fell into sin and became sinful due to the sin of Adam.

Proverbs 22:15 says .............
"Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child."

Genesis 8:21 declares, ".......
the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth." Jonathon Edwards, in his classic work The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended, remarks that on this verse: "The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence...so that the word here translated youth, comprehends not only what we in English most commonly call the time of youth, but also childhood and infancy."

Even if these verses were only speaking of people old enough to mentally understand sin, they would still be teaching original sin. For on that view, these verses would be saying that all people, as soon as they know good from evil, find themselves sinners. But if all people, as soon as they are capable of moral decisions, find themselves sinners, this proves that they are that way by nature.
 
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