Indicators of Recent Creation or Cataclysm

And again...........
"there are thousands of feet of sediment below these layers that the young earth theorists claim were deposited by the Flood.
Shouldn't all of that sediment be ON TOP of those bones?????
Maybe maybe not.

It is obvious you have not studied what is said. It sounds like your just trying to guess
 
Maybe maybe not.

It is obvious you have not studied what is said. It sounds like your just trying to guess

Really!

I said................
"there are thousands of feet of sediment below these layers that the young earth theorists claim were deposited by the Flood.
Shouldn't all of that sediment be ON TOP of those bones?????

That my brother is a FACT! No guessing at all.
 
Really!

I said................
"there are thousands of feet of sediment below these layers that the young earth theorists claim were deposited by the Flood.
Shouldn't all of that sediment be ON TOP of those bones?????

That my brother is a FACT! No guessing at all.
Example of our discussion...........
Two people stand looking over the Grand Canyon.
The question is.... Was the Canyon the product of a little water over a very long time? Or, was Grand Canyon sculpted by a lot of water during very little time?

Sedimentary strata of Grand Canyon (sandstone, limestone, and shale) are understood by one person to represent products of the passage of millions of years as calm and placid seas advanced and retreated over a dozen times on top of the continents.

The 2nd person looks at the same thing and says, the Grand Canyon sandstone, limestone, and shale strata are recognized as containing fossilized marine organisms that died violently during rapid burial when ocean water was over the continent. Therefore, a flood interpretation proceeds easily from what we see at Grand Canyon. The erosion of Grand Canyon likely occurred during the year after the global flood.

Now I am not pushing the Old Earth thesis as I said I do not know. However, as long as I have worked on this, what I find from those of the Young Earth theology is always a about "IF's"!

Young earth advocates create doubt by drawing attention to all the ifs in the methods such as "radioactive decay"......
"tree rings"...."frozen sediments" and so on.
If radioactive decay is constant, if no material was gained or lost, if trees produce only one ring per year, and if sediments form only one light-dark or coarse-fine couplet per year, then the methods will work.
But with so many ifs, how can there be any confidence that the science is not actually correct?

Now please understand.....I have a University 2 miles away and I have had to deal with these kind of questions from students for 30 years. The answer can NOT be....just accept the Genesis story on faith. I tried that and it does not work in any way.

So what is YOUR answer?
 
Really!

I said................
"there are thousands of feet of sediment below these layers that the young earth theorists claim were deposited by the Flood.
Shouldn't all of that sediment be ON TOP of those bones?????

That my brother is a FACT! No guessing at all.
dude it’s not the fact I was questioning it’s the question and the accusation I am questing,

there is still a mid week oceanic ridge and massive mountains under the ocean. According to old earth these should all be eroded and filled in…..(see my point. Thats speculation. Not based on fact)

the grang canyon being formed by the river, now that’s impossible and that is fact,,the river would have had to flow uphill

now that is how we take facts to search for what really happened
 
Example of our discussion...........
Two people stand looking over the Grand Canyon.
The question is.... Was the Canyon the product of a little water over a very long time? Or, was Grand Canyon sculpted by a lot of water during very little time?

Sedimentary strata of Grand Canyon (sandstone, limestone, and shale) are understood by one person to represent products of the passage of millions of years as calm and placid seas advanced and retreated over a dozen times on top of the continents.

The 2nd person looks at the same thing and says, the Grand Canyon sandstone, limestone, and shale strata are recognized as containing fossilized marine organisms that died violently during rapid burial when ocean water was over the continent. Therefore, a flood interpretation proceeds easily from what we see at Grand Canyon. The erosion of Grand Canyon likely occurred during the year after the global flood.

Now I am not pushing the Old Earth thesis as I said I do not know. However, as long as I have worked on this, what I find from those of the Young Earth theology is always a about "IF's"!

Young earth advocates create doubt by drawing attention to all the ifs in the methods such as "radioactive decay"......
"tree rings"...."frozen sediments" and so on.
If radioactive decay is constant, if no material was gained or lost, if trees produce only one ring per year, and if sediments form only one light-dark or coarse-fine couplet per year, then the methods will work.
But with so many ifs, how can there be any confidence that the science is not actually correct?

Now please understand.....I have a University 2 miles away and I have had to deal with these kind of questions from students for 30 years. The answer can NOT be....just accept the Genesis story on faith. I tried that and it does not work in any way.

So what is YOUR answer?
Science is based on what ifs…

you make a hypothesis, what if this happened, then you look and see if scientifically it is possible

carbon dating is based on known facts, since no one knows anything about the pre flood earth. Carbon dating can not be trusted pre flood,

Thats why I asked my first question about 500,000 years ago. How does anyone know. No one was there

I believe Peter spoke of these very things we see today

2 Peter 3: 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
 
Science is based on what ifs…

you make a hypothesis, what if this happened, then you look and see if scientifically it is possible

carbon dating is based on known facts, since no one knows anything about the pre flood earth. Carbon dating can not be trusted pre flood,

Thats why I asked my first question about 500,000 years ago. How does anyone know. No one was there

I believe Peter spoke of these very things we see today

2 Peter 3: 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.

I really appreciate you using Scriptures to validate your posts. However, because of the subject we are talking but is not in the Bible, per say, the Scripture you used does not apply to our discussion.

Second Peter 3 focuses on dismantling the arguments of the false teachers. Peter's purpose is urging Christians not to waver in their beliefs, but to continue to live out what they know to be true.

One specific claim being made by false teachers is that that Christ would never return. In some cases, it was also rejecting the idea that God would judge the sins of humanity. These deceivers mocked those ideas by asking, "Where is the coming of Jesus?" According to their challenge, it had been too long. Since time—too much time, in their opinion—has passed, but the world seems to be going along as it always has, they think nothing will change.

This not in the realm of our discussion.
 
I really appreciate you using Scriptures to validate your posts. However, because of the subject we are talking but is not in the Bible, per say, the Scripture you used does not apply to our discussion.

Second Peter 3 focuses on dismantling the arguments of the false teachers. Peter's purpose is urging Christians not to waver in their beliefs, but to continue to live out what they know to be true.

One specific claim being made by false teachers is that that Christ would never return. In some cases, it was also rejecting the idea that God would judge the sins of humanity. These deceivers mocked those ideas by asking, "Where is the coming of Jesus?" According to their challenge, it had been too long. Since time—too much time, in their opinion—has passed, but the world seems to be going along as it always has, they think nothing will change.

This not in the realm of our discussion.
An atheist is a false teacher also. Who says their is no God

They use Old Earth and evolutionary theories to support this case..

so 2 peter is perfect in this discussion
 
All I know is that God will never tease nor confuse His children, hence I cannot go for the 'Mature Earth' theory (which I don't think anybody brought up in this thread yet).

From all the research I've done on this subject the 'Young Earth' theory seems the most unscientific Creation explanation, but hey, I am not a scientist - what do I know?

What I do know is that God is not bound by our time limitations, and for Him a day does not necessarily mean a 24-hour period. (2 Pet 3:8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.)

That the Earth is indeed extremely old seems the most scientific and Biblically sound explanation to me at the moment. Anyway, our salvation does not depend on what we believe about this topic, but it is very interesting indeed!

My 2c.

Blessings!
 
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An atheist is a false teacher also. Who says their is no God

They use Old Earth and evolutionary theories to support this case..

so 2 peter is perfect in this discussion
Then you will have to accept 2 Pet 3:8:
"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."


Old earth beliefs​

Before presenting a more detailed explanation of OEC, here is a brief summary of core beliefs. Old earth creationists contend:

  • God miraculously created the universe from nothing (ex nihilo), created life from non-life, and progressively intervened in history to supernaturally create new species of life.
  • The age of the earth has no bearing on the creation of life. An ancient earth does not equate with Darwinian evolution.
  • Darwinian evolution (change through unguided naturalistic processes) is unbiblical, biologically untenable, and not supported by the fossil record. Old-earth creationists adamantly reject the Darwinian concept of common descent—the hypothesis that all plant, animal, and human life ultimately evolved from primitive single-celled organisms through unguided mutations and naturalistic processes.
  • God miraculously created Adam and Eve, humanity’s historical parents, who were new distinct creatures from whom humanity’s sin originated.
  • Earth’s geologic features formed over long ages through both gradual and catastrophic processes.
  • Genesis 1 is a literal account of God’s creation. After God created the heavens and the earth, He then created life over six successive “days,” which in the original Hebrew may be literally interpreted as long epochs of time.
 
Then you will have to accept 2 Pet 3:8:
"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."
[/QUOTE]
I accept that that is true.

However, if your trying to relate it to Genesis one. Agains, the evening and the morning were the first day.

1 day being like 1000 years is not the same as evening and morning. Last I checked, In any language evening and morning signify the night and day of 1 - 24 hour period. no 1000 evening and mornings that make up one day.

Old earth beliefs​

Before presenting a more detailed explanation of OEC, here is a brief summary of core beliefs. Old earth creationists contend:

  • God miraculously created the universe from nothing (ex nihilo), created life from non-life, and progressively intervened in history to supernaturally create new species of life.
  • The age of the earth has no bearing on the creation of life. An ancient earth does not equate with Darwinian evolution.
  • Darwinian evolution (change through unguided naturalistic processes) is unbiblical, biologically untenable, and not supported by the fossil record. Old-earth creationists adamantly reject the Darwinian concept of common descent—the hypothesis that all plant, animal, and human life ultimately evolved from primitive single-celled organisms through unguided mutations and naturalistic processes.
  • God miraculously created Adam and Eve, humanity’s historical parents, who were new distinct creatures from whom humanity’s sin originated.
  • Earth’s geologic features formed over long ages through both gradual and catastrophic processes.
  • Genesis 1 is a literal account of God’s creation. After God created the heavens and the earth, He then created life over six successive “days,” which in the original Hebrew may be literally interpreted as long epochs of time.
As I said, I used to believe in this theory..

I know longer can with all sincerity follow this anymore.

just because the hebrew CAN mean long periods of time, does not mean it must.

again, There is one evening and morning, not 1000's
 
I accept that that is true.

However, if your trying to relate it to Genesis one. Agains, the evening and the morning were the first day.

1 day being like 1000 years is not the same as evening and morning. Last I checked, In any language evening and morning signify the night and day of 1 - 24 hour period. no 1000 evening and mornings that make up one day.

As I said, I used to believe in this theory..

I know longer can with all sincerity follow this anymore.

just because the hebrew CAN mean long periods of time, does not mean it must.

again, There is one evening and morning, not 1000's
[/QUOTE]

Absolutly true. However it does give us the ability to open the door to another option.

So we have made a circle and are right back where we started and no one has answered the question of how long ago did those lizards walk on the earth?

I can not prove it with the Bible but I do think that there is enough there to think about something else.

It seems to me that The Bible reveals that there was a creation prior to Adam and Eve. Even though Man was made on the sixth day of creation he was NOT the first living organism to be created! Dinosaurs almost certainly existed prior to the first human. IF there is another explination NOW would be the time to present it.

Isn't it well within reason And Bible knowledge to say that God made the dinosaurs well before He made Adam and Eve.
"Sometime" after he made them the world became a convulsing and chaotic mess due to Satan's war against the Eternal God. (Revelation 12:7).
 
Absolutly true. However it does give us the ability to open the door to another option.

So we have made a circle and are right back where we started and no one has answered the question of how long ago did those lizards walk on the earth?

I can not prove it with the Bible but I do think that there is enough there to think about something else.

It seems to me that The Bible reveals that there was a creation prior to Adam and Eve. Even though Man was made on the sixth day of creation he was NOT the first living organism to be created! Dinosaurs almost certainly existed prior to the first human. IF there is another explination NOW would be the time to present it.

Isn't it well within reason And Bible knowledge to say that God made the dinosaurs well before He made Adam and Eve.
"Sometime" after he made them the world became a convulsing and chaotic mess due to Satan's war against the Eternal God. (Revelation 12:7).

I agree with you, but one thing puzzles me, though:

God created plants on the third day, but the sun, moon and stars on the 4th day. Since plants can't survive without sunlight, how could they survive if a day is a long period of time?
 
I agree with you, but one thing puzzles me, though:

God created plants on the third day, but the sun, moon and stars on the 4th day. Since plants can't survive without sunlight, how could they survive if a day is a long period of time?

That would only apply in a 24 hour , 7 day Creation time frame.

Old Earth would say that there was a Creation before Geneis.
 
That would only apply in a 24 hour , 7 day Creation time frame.

Old Earth would say that there was a Creation before Geneis.
Yes, it would.

I recently purchased a copy of G.H. Pember's book Earth's Earliest Ages - maybe I should read it 😉! (It's obviously a bit outdated, but I'm hoping to find some clarity on the subject.)

Blessings,
B.
 
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Absolutly true. However it does give us the ability to open the door to another option.

So we have made a circle and are right back where we started and no one has answered the question of how long ago did those lizards walk on the earth?

I can not prove it with the Bible but I do think that there is enough there to think about something else

Yes, This started when I first asked the question of how old we think the earth was because no one was there.
It seems to me that The Bible reveals that there was a creation prior to Adam and Eve.

Where do you see this? Where can I find evidence that animals lived and died prior to the 6 days of creation. And why is there death even though sin had not yet entered the world?
Even though Man was made on the sixth day of creation he was NOT the first living organism to be created! Dinosaurs almost certainly existed prior to the first human. IF there is another explination NOW would be the time to present it.

Isn't it well within reason And Bible knowledge to say that God made the dinosaurs well before He made Adam and Eve.
"Sometime" after he made them the world became a convulsing and chaotic mess due to Satan's war against the Eternal God. (Revelation 12:7).
I think they were all created on the same day.

Gen 1:
24 Then God said, “
Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Since a dino is a living creature, a beast of the earth. They would fit in here


26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over [g]all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that [h]moves on the earth.”
29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is [i]life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

all done on the 6th day. the evening and the morning were the 6th day. not 1000 years full of 6 days.

the question of why there is death on earth BEFORE sin entered the world can not fully be answered. Because there is no logical answer. to say it is because satan sinned. Satan is not of this world. If, as the gap theory suggests. he earth was made vold and without form BECAUSE of satan's sin. The death would have happened immediately the moment punished the earth. Before then, it would be perfect As it was in the garden. As it will be in the end. Where God says the lion and lamb will rest together, and baby and the snake will be around each other. and there is no death (predators) because creation has been restored.

Like I said, I used to be gap. It took a while and alot of evidence for me to change my views.. I think we always need to be open.. And like I said. it may be when we see God when we know the exact truth.. we could all be wrong..
 
Yes, This started when I first asked the question of how old we think the earth was because no one was there.


Where do you see this? Where can I find evidence that animals lived and died prior to the 6 days of creation. And why is there death even though sin had not yet entered the world?

I think they were all created on the same day.

Gen 1:
24 Then God said, “
Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Since a dino is a living creature, a beast of the earth. They would fit in here


26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over [g]all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that [h]moves on the earth.”
29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is [i]life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

all done on the 6th day. the evening and the morning were the 6th day. not 1000 years full of 6 days.

the question of why there is death on earth BEFORE sin entered the world can not fully be answered. Because there is no logical answer. to say it is because satan sinned. Satan is not of this world. If, as the gap theory suggests. he earth was made vold and without form BECAUSE of satan's sin. The death would have happened immediately the moment punished the earth. Before then, it would be perfect As it was in the garden. As it will be in the end. Where God says the lion and lamb will rest together, and baby and the snake will be around each other. and there is no death (predators) because creation has been restored.

Like I said, I used to be gap. It took a while and alot of evidence for me to change my views.. I think we always need to be open.. And like I said. it may be when we see God when we know the exact truth.. we could all be wrong..
You asked..........
"Where do you see this? Where can I find evidence that animals lived and died prior to the 6 days of creation. And why is there death even though sin had not yet entered the world?

As I said in the beginning......I can not prove it with the Scriptures and it is only my opinion!!!!

As for "where can I find evidence that animals lived prior to the 6 day Creation?"

I really can not help you but you can do the researce and searches and there are lots and lots of information available.

More information:
J. Alex Zumberge et al, Demosponge steroid biomarker 26-methylstigmastane provides evidence for Neoproterozoic animals, Nature Ecology (2018). DOI: 10.1038/s41559-018-0676-2

You are reading into Geneis 1:23 what you want it to sayy. That is the classic error of "agenda" driven theology. It (Dinasuers") are not see in that Scripture.

Why should the Bible have any explanation for dinosaurs would be the real questin!! If what my opinion is -- The non-avian dinosaurs all became extinct over 65 million years ago, long be fore the Bible was written. The biblical authors had no way of knowing that dinosaurs had ever existed.

Then you asked.............
"the question of why there is death on earth BEFORE sin entered the world can not fully be answered."

To that I would say that the word DEATH has to be properly idenified! The Bible said that Adam would SURELT die if he ate the fruit but that same Bible says he live to be 930 years old. So the word DEATH did not mean INSTANT bur it meant later or it is very possible that God meant he would die spiritually! Death = Seperation!

The Hebrew wording of Genesis 2:17 allows for a time lapse between the instantaneous spiritual death on that sad day of disobedience and the later physical death (which certainly did happen, just as God said, but for Adam it was 930 years later).
 
Yes, it would.

I recently purchased a copy of G.H. Pember's book Earth's Earliest Ages - maybe I should read it 😉! (It's obviously a bit outdated, but I'm hoping to find some clarity on the subject.)

Blessings,
B.

Please remember......"I am not an authority on this as I do not know and in fact NO ONE does".

It is that many years ago I had many college students coming to church and asking me. I could not respond with anything but.....
"Have faith and believe".

Well, before we could get to "have faith and believe in Jesus in be saved" we had to answer.........where did those dadgummed dino bones come from?????

The only thing that meaks logical sense to me is the "Gap" theory or that there was a Creation before Genesis which was destroyed by God because of Satans fall which corrupted all of creation.
 
Yes, it would.

I recently purchased a copy of G.H. Pember's book Earth's Earliest Ages - maybe I should read it 😉! (It's obviously a bit outdated, but I'm hoping to find some clarity on the subject.)

Blessings,
B.

I do not think you will get a lot of info on the discussion we are having. He spent most of his time explaing Genesis 6 and the depravity that led to the flood.

Also.....it was written in late 1880's so it is a hard read.
 
Please remember......"I am not an authority on this as I do not know and in fact NO ONE does".

It is that many years ago I had many college students coming to church and asking me. I could not respond with anything but.....
"Have faith and believe".

Well, before we could get to "have faith and believe in Jesus in be saved" we had to answer.........where did those dadgummed dino bones come from?????

The only thing that meaks logical sense to me is the "Gap" theory or that there was a Creation before Genesis which was destroyed by God because of Satans fall which corrupted all of creation.
I would recommend "A matter of days" by Hugh Ross. He is a christian astro physicist.
 
You asked..........
"Where do you see this? Where can I find evidence that animals lived and died prior to the 6 days of creation. And why is there death even though sin had not yet entered the world?

As I said in the beginning......I can not prove it with the Scriptures and it is only my opinion!!!!

As for "where can I find evidence that animals lived prior to the 6 day Creation?"

I really can not help you but you can do the researce and searches and there are lots and lots of information available.

More information:
J. Alex Zumberge et al, Demosponge steroid biomarker 26-methylstigmastane provides evidence for Neoproterozoic animals, Nature Ecology (2018). DOI: 10.1038/s41559-018-0676-2

You are reading into Geneis 1:23 what you want it to sayy. That is the classic error of "agenda" driven theology. It (Dinasuers") are not see in that Scripture.

Why should the Bible have any explanation for dinosaurs would be the real questin!! If what my opinion is -- The non-avian dinosaurs all became extinct over 65 million years ago, long be fore the Bible was written. The biblical authors had no way of knowing that dinosaurs had ever existed.

Then you asked.............
"the question of why there is death on earth BEFORE sin entered the world can not fully be answered."

To that I would say that the word DEATH has to be properly idenified! The Bible said that Adam would SURELT die if he ate the fruit but that same Bible says he live to be 930 years old. So the word DEATH did not mean INSTANT bur it meant later or it is very possible that God meant he would die spiritually! Death = Seperation!

The Hebrew wording of Genesis 2:17 allows for a time lapse between the instantaneous spiritual death on that sad day of disobedience and the later physical death (which certainly did happen, just as God said, but for Adam it was 930 years later).
65 million years ago? Again, Who was there 65 million years ago to see a dinosour and tell them they were there? NO ONE.

We have dinos in scripture. You call it a hippo. but it does nto even come close to resembling a hippo.

We have dino and man walking side by side in a few sites.. So to say they NEVER were here together is not factual.

As for death. Adam died the moment he sinned (Spiritually) his body started to decay physically from that point on. and he died physically many years later.

life expectendy after the flood lowered greatly. there are scientific reasons for this. And if you look at them. It all comes together. That is why studying the flood and its affects has so dramatically changed many views on the age of the earth.

You have not answer why death, the penalty of sin. occurs before sin. there was no death before adam, the first death recorded was when God killed an animal or 2 to cloth Adam and Eve and cover their nakedness.

once again, in my view, the only reason to believe in an old earth is to support these theories that the earth needed time to grow to age and to get to the point where it could support life. and for evolutionary processes to take place.

If God created earth for man, a view held by many, Then God could create the earth and create it in a way where mankind can use it. This includes creating the stars so their light shines to earth the DAY they were created (since according to scripture the stars were created for that purpose)

Did God need to wait billions of years for the stars light to reach earth? He is God. Can speaks and it happens.. I believe in miracles. and I believe people who are trying to disprove God exists try to use this science to disprove God. Sadly when this all came out. CHristians started to try to match it to the bible. so old earth theology was created in an order to appease scientists and those questioning why science appears to contradict the word..

it really does not contradict the word.. Not at all. again, the flood answers prety much all the questions..



again. My view
 
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