Is Getting Baptised Needed?

[LysanderShapiro]

Of course I'm not. I already said I wouldn't.



You need to connect with your own understanding, and not mine. You cannot possibly know the extent of my knowledge on the subject.



Well, my dear, you've come in here with the attitude.



Now, that's attitude.

Good day.

Euphemia, by no means am I presenting an attitude. However, you have said some pretty intents stuff in regards to Catholicism. And Glomung is right -- you are stating them and expecting us to accept them at face value.

Isn't it at least fair to get an explanation rather than making a fallacious statement and then not addressing it?

 

[Euphemia]

Euphemia, by no means am I presenting an attitude. However, you have said some pretty intents stuff in regards to Catholicism. And Glomung is right -- you are stating them and expecting us to accept them at face value.

Isn't it at least fair to get an explanation rather than making a fallacious statement and then not addressing it?

I most definitely do not think you have the attitude I have commented about. You are a good communicator.

I haven't said anything you haven't heard before. I don't expect you or anyone to accept anything I say I have come to understand about Catholicism. It is useless to try to convince a Catholic. Only Holy Spirit can do that, and I have witnessed it in many people's lives. They are the ones with the glowing testimonies.

You asked for something from me. I gave it. That's the end of it. I am not about to engage in a full-fledged debate over this in a Baptism thread, or with clear animosity and accusations already coming fast and furious.

I already see that you are not a blind follower of your religion and have most likely invested much of yourself into the understanding of the RCC doctrine. I give that the respect it is due. However, once freed from religion, my sisters and brothers who have left Catholicism tell me a whole other story.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I most definitely do not think you have the attitude I have commented about. You are a good communicator.

I haven't said anything you haven't heard before. I don't expect you or anyone to accept anything I say I have come to understand about Catholicism. It is useless to try to convince a Catholic. Only Holy Spirit can do that, and I have witnessed it in many people's lives. They are the ones with the glowing testimonies.

You asked for something from me. I gave it. That's the end of it. I am not about to engage in a full-fledged debate over this in a Baptism thread, or with clear animosity and accusations already coming fast and furious.

I already see that you are not a blind follower of your religion and have most likely invested much of yourself into the understanding of the RCC doctrine. I give that the respect it is due. However, once freed from religion, my sisters and brothers who have left Catholicism tell me a whole other story.

I appreciate the kind words.
That said, there are two sides to each story. My experiences, with all due respect to those who have left the Church, have become enchanted with Protestantism. The thing that Protestantism is very good at is evangelism. Though this doesn't mean the Church is at fault, only those who should be practicing what they preach.

It is up to you whether you want to engage in discussion or not -- by no means will I try to twist your arm -- but when statements are made that simply aren't true, I will often want to get to the bottom of it because this is in regards to what I hold dear, which is God's gift to us.

 

[Euphemia]

I appreciate the kind words.
That said, there are two sides to each story. My experiences, with all due respect to those who have left the Church, have become enchanted with Protestantism. The thing that Protestantism is very good at is evangelism. Though this doesn't mean the Church is at fault, only those who should be practicing what they preach.

It is up to you whether you want to engage in discussion or not -- by no means will I try to twist your arm -- but when statements are made that simply aren't true, I will often want to get to the bottom of it because this is in regards to what I hold dear, which is God's gift to us.

I do not give any argument for Protestantism. It means not too much to me. My center is Jesus Christ and God's word and the intimate relationship we can have with Him outside of religion.

Protestantism isn't good at evangelism. Holy Spirit-filled Christians are.

What we ought to be holding dear is God's word and the right dividing of the same....not centuries old man-made doctrines, which are based in religiosity and not the correct understanding of scriptures.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I do not give any argument for Protestantism. It means not too much to me. My center is Jesus Christ and God's word and the intimate relationship we can have with Him outside of religion.

Protestantism isn't good at evangelism. Holy Spirit-filled Christians are.

What we ought to be holding dear is God's word and the right dividing of the same....not centuries old man-made doctrines, which are based in religiosity and not the correct understanding of scriptures.

By no means would I subscribe to man-made doctrine. I would have never become a Catholic had I continued to believe this. In fact, I had nothing to gain when switching from Protestantism to Catholicism. My motivation was ultimately service to God. I wanted to worship Him and praise Him and be emerged in Christianity as fully as I could possibly be. And I never expected it would lead me into the Catholic Church, but with all of the Scripture, all of the evidence, all of the History, and between that, so much of the Holy Spirit just tugging at me more and more, I knew I had come home when I was received.

 

[Euphemia]

By no means would I subscribe to man-made doctrine. I would have never become a Catholic had I continued to believe this. In fact, I had nothing to gain when switching from Protestantism to Catholicism. My motivation was ultimately service to God. I wanted to worship Him and praise Him and be emerged in Christianity as fully as I could possibly be. And I never expected it would lead me into the Catholic Church, but with all of the Scripture, all of the evidence, all of the History, and between that, so much of the Holy Spirit just tugging at me more and more, I knew I had come home when I was received.

It is clear you have had some needs that you believe are being met there. That's the good part of it! Blessings to you.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

It is clear you have had some needs that you believe are being met there. That's the good part of it! Blessings to you.

If you ever want to discuss -- not debate, not argue, but just talk about Catholic Christianity and non-Catholic Christianity, feel free to send me a message. I especially like talking about these things on friendlier notes. You are welcome to bring into question anything or address anything, even if you feel it is offensive -- I would never be offended given in the sincerity.

God bless you.

 

[Euphemia]

If you ever want to discuss -- not debate, not argue, but just talk about Catholic Christianity and non-Catholic Christianity, feel free to send me a message. I especially like talking about these things on friendlier notes. You are welcome to bring into question anything or address anything, even if you feel it is offensive -- I would never be offended given in the sincerity.

God bless you.

Thank you!

 

[CCW95A]

Are these really the Doctrinal statement of the Catholic Church?
Which one is not correct? I am just asking, because I don't know from a Catholic perspective.

1. We are the only church that has the truth and there is salvation in no other.

2. You are incapable of interpreting the Bible yourself. Only I and those whom I appoint can correctly interpret the Bible for you. Therefore, you should not read the Bible and you must not question our authority or our interpretations of it.

3. As the head of the church, when I speak on matters of faith and morals I am incapable of deceiving or being deceived. I am immune from error. I am the vicar of Christ on earth.

4. Only I and those I appoint have the authority to forgive sin.

5. My mother was born without sin, she lived a perfectly sinless life, She is the Queen of Heaven and is Co-Redemtrix along with Christ.

6. You must go to my mother to get to Jesus.

7. I can pray over a piece of bread and a glass of wine and as a result, it turns into the actual (literal) body and blood of Jesus Christ!

8. The death of Jesus on the cross was not sufficient to pay for your sin. You must first go the a place of fire for an indeterminate amount of time for further purification. And then you must go to a treasure-chest where all of the good deeds done by all the saints who have gone before you will be the final merit you need before you can enter heaven.

9. Our church tradition has equal or more authority than Scripture.

10. If you do not agree with these tenets and every one of the more than 125 other articles of faith (that read like complex and difficult to understand legal documents) we have the authority and the power to condemn your soul to eternal damnation, and we will!

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Are these really the Doctrinal statement of the Catholic Church?

1. We are the only church that has the truth and there is salvation in no other.

2. You are incapable of interpreting the Bible yourself. Only I and those whom I appoint can correctly interpret the Bible for you. Therefore, you should not read the Bible and you must not question our authority or our interpretations of it.

3. As the head of the church, when I speak on matters of faith and morals I am incapable of deceiving or being deceived. I am immune from error. I am the vicar of Christ on earth.

4. Only I and those I appoint have the authority to forgive sin.

5. My mother was born without sin, she lived a perfectly sinless life, She is the Queen of Heaven and is Co-Redemtrix along with Christ.

6. You must go to my mother to get to Jesus.

7. I can pray over a piece of bread and a glass of wine and as a result, it turns into the actual (literal) body and blood of Jesus Christ!

8. The death of Jesus on the cross was not sufficient to pay for your sin. You must first go the a place of fire for an indeterminate amount of time for further purification. And then you must go to a treasure-chest where all of the good deeds done by all the saints who have gone before you will be the final merit you need before you can enter heaven.

9. Our church tradition has equal or more authority than Scripture.

10. If you do not agree with these tenets and every one of the more than 125 other articles of faith (that read like complex and difficult to understand legal documents) we have the authority and the power to condemn your soul to eternal damnation, and we will!

I can tell this was written with an agenda.

 

[CCW95A]

I can tell this was written with an agenda.

Do you have the Catholic Doctrinal statement available for us to read? I know some of what they believe since I was raised Roman Catholic, but that was many many years ago.

I did not write my last post, that is why I was only asking if these are true.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Do you have the Catholic Doctrinal statement available for us to read? I know some of what they believe since I was raised Roman Catholic, but that was many many years ago.

I did not write my last post, that is why I was only asking if these are true.

The Dogma of the Catholic Church can be found in the Apostle's creed:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.
Amen.

Catholic doctrine can be reviewed here. There is much to go into. I can answer one thing at a time, but it would take a lot to write it all out for you.
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/index.asp

I mean no disrespect, but you weren't drawn into the richness of the Church. You've left something you knew very little about. I don't mean this arrogantly, but just as a matter of fact.

Out of curiosity, why do you believe "this is my body/this is my blood" is figurative?

 

[CCW95A]

The Dogma of the Catholic Church can be found in the Apostle's creed:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.
Amen.

Catholic doctrine can be reviewed here. There is much to go into. I can answer one thing at a time, but it would take a lot to write it all out for you.
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/index.asp

I mean no disrespect, but you weren't drawn into the richness of the Church. You've left something you knew very little about. I don't mean this arrogantly, but just as a matter of fact.

Out of curiosity, why do you believe "this is my body/this is my blood" is figurative?

When I was in the Catholic Church I was an alter boy, and had to learn "latin" because that was how the mass was conducted back then. I had no idea what I was saying, they just taught me what to say and when to say it. I loved ringing the bells, that was cool, and lighting all those candles too. The incense smelled nice to. I remember the nuns used to asked me, "Curtis, do believe Jesus died for you?" I would look at them and say, "OK" Not knowing what else to say but that. They would just smile at me and pat me on the head. I remember once while sitting in mass, and I was looking up at the cross with Jesus still stuck to it. I thought in my self, "I wonder how this salvation works." After many many years and getting saved in an Assemblies of God Church, while I was praying one day the Lord spoke to me, and said, "Do you remember when you were young, and sitting in Church you asked, "I wonder how this salvation works"?" I did not know that the Lord knew about that. I said, "yes, I do" and the Lord said, "I heard that prayer of yours, and from that day forward I began to move in your life to bring you to the place where I could teach you how this salvation works"
My mother always wanted me to be a priest. She got what she wanted me to be....

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

When I was in the Catholic Church I was an alter boy, and had to learn "latin" because that was how the mass was conducted back then. I had no idea what I was saying, they just taught me what to say and when to say it. I loved ringing the bells, that was cool, and lighting all those candles too. The incense smelled nice to. I remember the nuns used to asked me, "Curtis, do believe Jesus died for you?" I would look at them and say, "OK" Not knowing what else to say but that. They would just smile at me and pat me on the head. I remember once while sitting in mass, and I was looking up at the cross with Jesus still stuck to it. I thought in my self, "I wonder how this salvation works." After many many years and getting saved in an Assemblies of God Church, while I was praying one day the Lord spoke to me, and said, "Do you remember when you were young, and sitting in Church you asked, "I wonder how this salvation works"?" I did not know that the Lord knew about that. I said, "yes, I do" and the Lord said, "I heard that prayer of yours, and from that day forward I began to move in your life to bring you to the place where I could teach you how this salvation works"
My mother always wanted me to be a priest. She got what she wanted me to be....

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

CCW, your story is a dime a dozen.
This is what I wrote to someone else on here earlier today:

"A Catholic who becomes an Evangelical I'd argue has never understood his Catholicism. There are millions of evangelicals who say "I was a Catholic until I was 15 and then I met Jesus." Or "I was a Catholic until I was 17 and then I became a Christian." Or "I was a Catholic until I was 20 and then I was saved." It's enough to make you want to visit their parish priests and say "What the heck were you telling these people?"

There are so many of these folks who say "Don't talk to me about Catholicism because they never taught me a thing. Now I've met Jesus!" By all means, finding one's relationship with Christ is the most important thing, but schlepping off to a Catholic mass was nothing and they found themselves in a non-denominational youth group or Campus Crusade. I'd say a Catholic who becomes an evangelical has never drawn on the riches of the Catholic faith.

Whereas an Evangelical who becomes a Catholic has taken the best of Evangelicalism and gone on with it to its fullest, reading their way into the Catholic faith, and becoming more evangelical and more of a Bible Christian than they ever have been."

I stand by this statement. If only I had a nickle for every ex-Catholic I've met who said "I used to be a Catholic -- brought up in a Jesuit school and participated as an altar server in a pre-Vatican II Tridentine mass. Then I turned (15-25) and became a REAL Christian." They never understood the Catholic faith. They went to Mass and went with the motions, but nothing more. It's the same story every time. And the funny thing is it is always used as a means to suggest they are some sort of Catholic experts.

 

[Euphemia]

I know many people who were Catholics and the LORD HIMSELF led them out. They serve God with their whole lives and are giants in the faith today. I also know people who have only recently come out of Catholicism and have received Jesus Christ FOR THE FIRST TIME---not ever having understood what their religion actually was teaching, but were heavily involved in it---and the spiritual growth in them is phenomenal, palpable. They all tell of confusion and the lack of satisfaction in tradition, knowing there was something more that they needed---they were spiritually STARVING! They all are grateful to God for hearing their heart's cry and leading them out of what has become a dead religion of works and traditions based on false perceptions of the truth.

I have to wonder why they were starving for real spiritual food and that no one came to their rescue.

 

[CCW95A]

CCW, your story is a dime a dozen.
This is what I wrote to someone else on here earlier today:

"A Catholic who becomes an Evangelical I'd argue has never understood his Catholicism. There are millions of evangelicals who say "I was a Catholic until I was 15 and then I met Jesus." Or "I was a Catholic until I was 17 and then I became a Christian." Or "I was a Catholic until I was 20 and then I was saved." It's enough to make you want to visit their parish priests and say "What the heck were you telling these people?"

There are so many of these folks who say "Don't talk to me about Catholicism because they never taught me a thing. Now I've met Jesus!" By all means, finding one's relationship with Christ is the most important thing, but schlepping off to a Catholic mass was nothing and they found themselves in a non-denominational youth group or Campus Crusade. I'd say a Catholic who becomes an evangelical has never drawn on the riches of the Catholic faith.

Whereas an Evangelical who becomes a Catholic has taken the best of Evangelicalism and gone on with it to its fullest, reading their way into the Catholic faith, and becoming more evangelical and more of a Bible Christian than they ever have been."

I stand by this statement. If only I had a nickle for every ex-Catholic I've met who said "I used to be a Catholic -- brought up in a Jesuit school and participated as an altar server in a pre-Vatican II Tridentine mass. Then I turned (15-25) and became a REAL Christian." They never understood the Catholic faith. They went to Mass and went with the motions, but nothing more.

Brother if someone is truly searching for the truth which is only found in Jesus Christ. God will lead them to the placed where truth can be found. This is why you say you have heard of a lot of ex Catholics who have left to go somewhere else. They left to go to the place where truth is being taught. If truth was being taught were I was I would have stayed, so would have everyone else. I fully understand where I came from and I am so glad where I am now.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I know many people who were Catholics and the LORD HIMSELF led them out. They serve God with their whole lives and are giants in the faith today. I also know people who have only recently come out of Catholicism and have received Jesus Christ FOR THE FIRST TIME---not ever having understood what their religion actually was teaching, but were heavily involved in it---and the spiritual growth in them is phenomenal, palpable. They all tell of confusion and the lack of satisfaction in tradition, knowing there was something more that they needed. They all are grateful to God for hearing their heart's cry and leading them out of what has become a dead religion of works and traditions based on false perceptions of the truth.

Both sides will claim the Holy Spirit lead them somewhere. It could be a part of a larger plan, but one thing is for sure -- God is not a God of confusion -- He's a God of order.

Out of curiosity, have you met an evangelical who has come into the Catholic faith?

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Brother if someone is truly searching for the truth which is only found in Jesus Christ. God will lead them to the placed where truth can be found. This is why you say you have heard of a lot of ex Catholics who have left to go somewhere else. They left to go to the place where truth is being taught. If truth was being taught were I was I would have stayed, so would have everyone else. I fully understand where I came from and I am so glad where I am now.

In all honesty, I celebrate that you have found your relationship with Christ. It's the most important part. That said, I stand by my statements regardless.

 

[Euphemia]

Both sides will claim the Holy Spirit lead them somewhere. It could be a part of a larger plan, but one thing is for sure -- God is not a God of confusion -- He's a God of order.

Out of curiosity, have you met an evangelical who has come into the Catholic faith?

Claims are like belly buttons. I really have serious doubts about that. God will not lead someone in where He has led others out. I have not met anyone who is truly born again and been led into Catholicism---all have only come out, which is very telling. There is freedom outside.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Claims are like belly buttons. I really have serious doubts about that. God will not lead someone in where He has led others out. I have not met anyone who is truly born again and been led into Catholicism---all have only come out, which is very telling. There is freedom outside.

How do you know He lead them out?
Consider this: there are about 49,000 different denomination, all claiming to be lead by the Holy Spirit, yet they teach different individual doctrines. Are they all right that God teaches different interpretations? Can there be more than one right way? Or can they be mislead?

Each week, there are multiple new denominations that get started. Every single week.