Is Getting Baptised Needed?

[Euphemia]

Prayer is good, but many pervert it by thinking they can pray to anyone who has died, thinking they may be in heaven (but may not be) and that they will receive favour from God for it. It won't happen.

NOWHERE in the bible are believers instructed to pray to anyone other than God, and NOWHERE in the Bible are believers encouraged to ask individuals in heaven for their prayers. NOWHERE is anything like that even mentioned. Therefore, it is an extrabiblical doctrine or belief and needs to be discarded in favour of scriptural practices.

Hebrews 4:16
So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 7:25
Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf.

Romans 8:26-27
And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don’t know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God’s own will.


As for praying to saints, asking them to pray for us, that is proof that people are really believing that God doesn't hear! they have spiritual inferiority complexes!

God does not hear or answer any prayer based on who is doing the praying! He answers prayer based on whether they are asked according to His will. Jesus Christ, joined with us using His authority can effect what is needed...not Jesus Christ, us and someone else.

1 John 5:14-15
And we are confident that he hears us whenever we ask for anything that pleases him. And since we know he hears us when we make our requests, we also know that he will give us what we ask for.

There is absolutely NO reason or need to pray to anyone other than God alone, and NO basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear prayer. Only God can answer our prayer. No one in heaven has any greater access to God's throne than we do!

 

[Euphemia]

Oh boy. I don't know how many times I've said, verbatim, asking others to pray for us is not bypassing God. We pray to God -- every prayer said is directed up to God, in worship of Him, in recognition of Him.

It bypasses the Lord Jesus Christ.

You can say it all you want, but you know nothing of what Catholicism teaches. This is why you claim you read the Catechism (which I highly doubt you did -- I suspect you googled parts of it), and still have no doubt what it says.

I know what I am talking about. I don't lie, either.

Please find me one verse that says God is a god of the dead. Find one verse that says asking others to pray for one another is wrong. Find me one verse that says saints in heaven are dead. Find me one section in the catechism that says the Church says to pray to Mary.

You need to come up with scripture that tells you to pray to the dead. The saints in heaven are living spirits of people who have what? DIED! All you are doing is rationalizing.

Why do you think you have no need for a magisterium?

John 16:13a
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Prayer is good, but many pervert it by thinking they can pray to anyone who has died, thinking they may be in heaven (but may not be) and that they will receive favour from God for it. It won't happen.

NOWHERE in the bible are believers instructed to pray to anyone other than God, and NOWHERE in the Bible are believers encouraged to ask individuals in heaven for their prayers. NOWHERE is anything like that even mentioned. Therefore, it is an extrabiblical doctrine or belief and needs to be discarded in favour of scriptural practices.

Hebrews 4:16
So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 7:25
Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save[a] those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf.

Romans 8:26-27
And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don’t know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God’s own will.


As for praying to saints, asking them to pray for us, that is proof that people are really believing that God doesn't hear! they have spiritual inferiority complexes!

God does not hear or answer any prayer based on who is doing the praying! He answers prayer based on whether they are asked according to His will. Jesus Christ, joined with us using His authority can effect what is needed...not Jesus Christ, us and someone else.

1 John 5:14-15
And we are confident that he hears us whenever we ask for anything that pleases him. And since we know he hears us when we make our requests, we also know that he will give us what we ask for.

There is absolutely NO reason or need to pray to anyone other than God alone, and NO basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear prayer. Only God can answer our prayer. No one in heaven has any greater access to God's throne than we do!

I agree with every single verse you provided, but you are manipulating the Scriptures to fit what you want it to fit. And by the way--that is the purpose of a magisterium--of one solid Church. If we decide we don't need one, then that means anyone who wants to can take the Scriptures and adjust it to mold into their agenda. This is why there are so many different Christian doctrines, and they continue to grow.

Instead of taking my word for it, why don't you investigate yourself. Actually sit down and read the Catechism and what it says...but don't stop there because people mistakenly do this. Speak to different theologians and priests. Ask them what each point means. Ask them how they know. Ask them to cite reasons why they think this -- they will not go directly to the Catechism, they will use Scripture and early Church writings. They did when I was in opposition to Catholicism. I didn't spend an hour or a day or a week trying to get to the bottom of it -- I spent a couple of years. I spoke to both Catholic priests and Protestant pastors, both learned in the faith, and wanted to know once and for all what IS the Church.

 

[Euphemia]

I agree with every single verse you provided, but you are manipulating the Scriptures to fit what you want it to fit. And by the way--that is the purpose of a magisterium--of one solid Church. If we decide we don't need one, then that means anyone who wants to can take the Scriptures and adjust it to mold into their agenda. This is why there are so many different Christian doctrines, and they continue to grow.

Instead of taking my word for it, why don't you investigate yourself. Actually sit down and read the Catechism and what it says...but don't stop there because people mistakenly do this. Speak to different theologians and priests. Ask them what each point means. Ask them how they know. Ask them to cite reasons why they think this -- they will not go directly to the Catechism, they will use Scripture and early Church writings. They did when I was in opposition to Catholicism. I didn't spend an hour or a day or a week trying to get to the bottom of it -- I spent a couple of years. I spoke to both Catholic priests and Protestant pastors, both learned in the faith, and wanted to know once and for all what IS the Church.

I don't manipulate scripture.

There is already one solid Church, but it isn't an earthly organization located in the Vatican. We are the Church---all believers, led by Holy Spirit. He leads us into all truth.

I have already read the basic cathechism of the Catholic religion. We have the word, and we have Holy Spirit whose job it is to gift men and women with spiritual gifts that do certain "jobs" within the body of Christ.

Jesus' way is much better. Try reading the scriptures and following them instead of the dictates of the RCC. Spending so much time trying to understand a religion reveals you may have had some disenchantment with your faith...and looked for help in the wrong direction. In the so-called comfort of a religion, rather than the person of Jesus Christ. His power is not found in religion, Protestant or otherwise. Spirit-filled Christians could have helped you.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

It bypasses the Lord Jesus Christ.



I know what I am talking about. I don't lie, either.



You need to come up with scripture that tells you to pray to the dead. The saints in heaven are living spirits of people who have what? DIED! All you are doing is rationalizing.


John 16:13a
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth.

Well no, it does not bypass Christ as each prayer is merely asking others to pray for us? Pray for us to who? Christ of course. How can be that regarded as bypassing Christ if it is intended to be a prayer leading to Him?

Hebrews 12:1
Revelation 8:3
Revelation 5:8
John 3:16
Romans 6:23

They are no longer with us on earth -- they are more part of the Body of Christ than ever being in His presence. This is the most important aspect to it.

By who's authority are you making these accusations? If you say the Holy Spirit, then you are missing the point. The question is how do you know it is the Holy Spirit and not something else misguiding you? If you say because you believe in Christ, then why is it that others who believe in Christ are also making a proclamation against yours? If you say because they're lying, that's too easy. If you say because you have authority to translate, then that's prideful. If you say you don't have authority, then who does? If you say the Holy Spirit has the authority, then you've just argued in a circle since the Holy Spirit knows what He is talking about -- but who decides translates what the Holy Spirit has said? If you say the Bible, who translates the Bible? If you say the Holy Spirit, then again, your argument is circular. If you say individuals translate the Bible, then again, that's prideful and leads to Scriptural chaos. Is chaos of God?

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I don't manipulate scripture.

There is already one solid Church, but it isn't an earthly organization located in the Vatican. We are the Church---all believers, led by Holy Spirit. He leads us into all truth.

I have already read the basic cathechism of the Catholic religion. We have the word, and we have Holy Spirit whose job it is to gift men and women with spiritual gifts that do certain "jobs" within the body of Christ.

Jesus' way is much better. Try reading the scriptures and following them instead of the dictates of the RCC. Spending so much time trying to understand a religion reveals you may have had some disenchantment with your faith...and looked for help in the wrong direction. In the so-called comfort of a religion, rather than the person of Jesus Christ. His power is not found in religion, Protestant or otherwise. Spirit-filled Christians could have helped you.

You said you don't believe in a magisterium and now you say you do. You have to be clear. Do you or do you not?
When we say the Church, we don't mean the Vatican, and we don't even mean the people. The people are the body of the Church, but the Church itself is invisible. That is what I mean by a magisterium.

You have fallen for another fallacy -- you believe the Catholic Church has only a Catechism and not the Bible. The Bible was canonized and compiled by the Catholic Church. Anyone who believes in it, especially the NT, trusts in the Holy Spirit's ability to speak through the Catholic bishops back in the 4th century. Your argument falls apart when making this claim.

I think you believe Catholicism teaches worship of the Church. Again, show me where it teaches this. Catholicism teaches worship of God, and the Church directs us to Him.

With all due respect, you have no clue what you're talking about. You are making things up as you go along. For all I know, you have read the Bible 100 times and know every single word of it, but you have read it only with self-appointing lenses. "I understand the Bible -- YOU don't!" How is this not pride?

 

[Euphemia]

Well no, it does not bypass Christ as each prayer is merely asking others to pray for us? Pray for us to who? Christ of course. How can be that regarded as bypassing Christ if it is intended to be a prayer leading to Him?

By who's authority are you making these accusations? If you say the Holy Spirit, then you are missing the point. The question is how do you know it is the Holy Spirit and not something else misguiding you? If you say because you believe in Christ, then why is it that others who believe in Christ are also making a proclamation against yours? If you say because they're lying, that's too easy. If you say because you have authority to translate, then that's prideful. If you say you don't have authority, then who does? If you say the Holy Spirit has the authority, then you've just argued in a circle since the Holy Spirit knows what He is talking about -- but who decides translates what the Holy Spirit has said? If you say the Bible, who translates the Bible? If you say the Holy Spirit, then again, your argument is circular. If you say individuals translate the Bible, then again, that's prideful and leads to Scriptural chaos. Is chaos of God?

So many questions.

Talk to Jesus. Don't rationalize. Know the word. Experience the baptism of Holy Spirit. He will lead you into all truth.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

So many questions.

Talk to Jesus. Don't rationalize. Know the word. Experience the baptism of Holy Spirit. He will lead you into all truth.

One thing I've failed to do was respond with charity. I stand by all of my words, but sometimes my intention falls. For that, I'm sorry. There is no point in even engaging if I can't do it with charity.

 

[Euphemia]

You said you don't believe in a magisterium and now you say you do. You have to be clear. Do you or do you not?

I never said that we have or need a magisterium. We don't. We have Jesus Christ.

When we say the Church, we don't mean the Vatican, and we don't even mean the people. The people are the body of the Church, but the Church itself is invisible. That is what I mean by a magisterium.

That's not what it is. If you think the Church of Jesus Christ is all believers, then you are right. if you think it is all Catholic believers, then you'd be wrong. We are not in need of a magisterium. We are led by Holy Spirit and through God's word. No popes.

You have fallen for another fallacy -- you believe the Catholic Church has only a Catechism and not the Bible. The Bible was canonized and compiled by the Catholic Church. Anyone who believes in it, especially the NT, trusts in the Holy Spirit's ability to speak through the Catholic bishops back in the 4th century. Your argument falls apart when making this claim.

No. I know that Catholics believe the bible, but most do not even study it for themselves. Holy Spirit didn't speak through ay Catholic bishops. He spoke through the legitimate writers of scripture, who He inspired! Certain Catholic men have been employed by God to do translation work.

I think you believe Catholicism teaches worship of the Church. Again, show me where it teaches this. Catholicism teaches worship of God, and the Church directs us to Him.

I certainly do believe that The RCC promotes the worship of the actual religion as "The Church" itself, and I witness its effects far too many times.

With all due respect, you have no clue what you're talking about. You are making things up as you go along. For all I know, you have read the Bible 100 times and know every single word of it, but you have read it only with self-appointing lenses. "I understand the Bible -- YOU don't!" How is this not pride?

I know exactly what I am talking about, and I am not making up anything. I see pride in your defense of Catholicism. I don't say that you do not know Jesus Christ, but you have every right to seek truth, but I pray that you will discover more and more of it, and not suffer when you come to certain conclusions that you've been misled in some areas. Just keep seeking and you will find. God is good. He sees your heart and your strong desire to know the truth.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I never said that we have or need a magisterium. We don't. We have Jesus Christ.



That's not what it is. If you think the Church of Jesus Christ is all believers, then you are right. if you think it is all Catholic believers, then you'd be wrong. We are not in need of a magisterium. We are led by Holy Spirit and through God's word. No popes.



No. I know that Catholics believe the bible, but most do not even study it for themselves. Holy Spirit didn't speak through ay Catholic bishops. He spoke through the legitimate writers of scripture, who He inspired! Certain Catholic men have been employed by God to do translation work.



I certainly do believe that The RCC promotes the worship of the actual religion as "The Church" itself, and I witness its effects far too many times.



I know exactly what I am talking about, and I am not making up anything. I see pride in your defense of Catholicism. I don't say that you do not know Jesus Christ, but you have every right to seek truth, but I pray that you will discover more and more of it, and not suffer when you come to certain conclusions that you've been misled in some areas. Just keep seeking and you will find. God is good. He sees your heart and your strong desire to know the truth.

We should pray for one another that each of us will come to understand God more each day.

 

[Euphemia]

We should pray for one another that each of us will come to understand God more each day.

That's a good start. But ask God to show you specifically the truth about these matters. He will do it.

 

[Ravindran]

Euphemia,
To begin, is God a God of the living or the dead? If the dead, then you are right and I am wrong. If the living, then would the saints be living through eternal life with God in heaven? And if so, should they be called dead saints? And if not, then are they still part of the Body of Christ in heaven? And if so, then would we not ask them who are now closer to God than ever to intercede in prayer to God? Remember, Catholics don't pray TO saints or Mary, we include them in our prayer TO God.

I have to point out again -- is honor of anyone other than God always worship? I'd say no. The Bible says no as it tells us to honor our father and mother in Ephesians 6:2 and your wife in 1 Peter 3:7. This is the idea of Marian honor -- not going above Her son and not even measuring it up to worship, but having a love for her because you have a far greater love for her Son.

Christ is the most loving person -- we can't even fathom. And He was even able to translate this love as a son would to his mother, as He did with Mary. We don't love Jesus because of Mary, but rather, we love Mary because we love Jesus -- in fact, we love her because we WORSHIP Jesus. Just as we honor our parents because we worship God, not vice-versa.

The earliest Christians had a Marian devotion because of their worship of Christ. Irenaeus, a student of Paul, wrote about Mary as "the new Eve" explaining the parallels between Eve's disobedience and Mary's obedience, especially with Jesus being the New Adam, fulfilling what Adam couldn't.

When I was in an Evangelical exploring Catholicism, I had a tough time with the term "Queen of Heaven" because it sounded so blatantly idolatrous. Only God is King and no man can serve to masters. I recognized Mary's importance, but I refused to call her Queen of Heaven...

...but I then learned what the title means, and it isn't in regards to a second master, but as a means of recognizing her Son's kingship. Jesus is the King of heaven. He reigns over all. And just as David's mother was the queen mother of Israel, Christ's mother is the queen mother of heaven. I realized it is not blasphemous at all. In fact, it is a wonderful term that ends in directing us to Jesus. And overall, that is Mary's role to the Church -- not directing to herself, but directing us to Christ. This is the importance of John 2:1-5 -- Mary will always tell us to go to her Son and do what He says.

If you still cannot agree with including Christ's mother, then I leave you to your thoughts, but when rejecting Catholics and other Christians groups for it, recognizing what we mean when we say we honor her rather than only criticizing a faulty concept.

LS - You know I respect you guys a lot.. This is in interesting topic.. I wanted to just present my view on this Biblically.. I will stick only to Bible verses..

First, Jesus is our High Priest.. The important point to note here is, only Jesus can sympathize for our weakness.. For He is the One without any sin.. Mary or other saints, all have fallen short.. They CANNOT sympathize for our weakness and sins.. So they cannot intercede on behalf of our sins..

Hebrews 4: 14-15
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin

Second, Paul condemns worship to anyone other than God.. Serving or worshiping any creation other Creator is clearly wrong..

Romans 1:25
because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who
is blessed forever! Amen.

Finally, prayer is always to God.. And only to God.. I don't think we have any Biblical evidence of anyone praying to anyone other than Father in heaven.. I think Lord's prayer is so important.. Jesus clearly taught us how to pray.. The first point he stresses is, prayers are directed towards our Father in heaven.. It is a personal communication between us and God.. Not to anyone else..

Mathew 6:9
Pray like this: Our Father in heaven,...

Personally I think it boils down to whether a person would believe in Sola Scriptura or not.. I believe in Sola Scriptura and you don't If that is not agreed upon, nothing else could be! But I think it is good to talk on basis of scripture. I have done that with you in past and it was a pleasure..

 

[Major]

2) "But doesn't the Catholic Church teach Marian worship? Christians should only worship God alone!"

Christians MUST worship God alone -- show me where the Church teaches Marian worship...
To start, I think I should cut to the chase on something that most Protestants are concerned about when it comes to Catholics and Mary…
CATHOLICS DON’T WORSHIP MARY.

The misconception comes from Marian prayer, the Immaculate Conception, and her title as the Queen of Heaven. There is an explanation for it all, and none of it equals worships.

So if Catholics don’t worship Mary, how do Catholics respond to Mary? The answer is we honor her. But many people would still have issue with that. Here’s why we should honor Mary. Exodus 20:12 (NASB) says

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

Jesus loved His mother and, being obedient to the Commandments, honored her. As Christians, we honor Mary because we are imitating Jesus.

To quote Saint Maximilian Kolbe:

“Never be afraid of loving the Blessed Virgin too much. You can never love her more than Jesus did.”

BUT WHY PRAY TO MARY IF WE ARE ONLY TO PRAY TO GOD?

Let’s not confuse prayer for worship in every account. When we pray to God, it should always be done in worship. Every prayer involving Mary should never bypass God. This is why prayers said by Catholics begin with the sign of the Cross (in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). Going further, prayer to Mary isn’t so much prayer TO her as it is asking her to pray FOR us.

HOW WE CAN ASK MARY TO PRAY FOR US IF SHE’S DEAD?

As Christians, we believe those in heaven have eternal life (John 3:16). We believe Mary is in heaven. Therefore, we believe Mary is alive. Let’s remember that God is not of the dead, but of the living who love through Him (Luke 20:38).


BUT WHY ASK HER TO PRAY FOR US WHEN WE CAN GO DIRECTLY TO GOD?

We are told in James 5:16 to confess our sins to one another and PRAY FOR EACH OTHER. Have you have had a problem and went to a friend or pastor for support and asked them to pray for you? This is what Catholics do when we go to Mary.

Many people, when they really need prayer go to a pastor. Why so you think that is? It’s because we recognize that he is very close to God. No one was ever as close to Jesus than His mother, and this is why Catholics put emphasis on Marian prayer.

John 2:3-5:

When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus *said to Him, “They have no wine.” And Jesus *said to her, “Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come.” His mother *said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”

Mary has a way of directing us to her Son, and that is her role. Mary wasn’t merely an incubator for Jesus, she has always acted as a model Christian — she was technically the FIRST Christian.

WHY DO WE NEED THE HAIL MARY PRAYER IF IT’S NOT BIBLICAL.

Well, it is actually!

Here is the break down of the prayer:

Hail Mary, full of grace
The Lord is with thee
(Luke 1:28)
Blessed art thou among women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus
(Luke 1:42)
Holy Mary, Mother of God
Pray for us, now and at the hour of our death
Amen
(James 5:16)

Most of the prayer, if you research the verses, are taken directly from the Bible while all of it is backed Biblically. Mary said in Luke 1:48 that all generations will call her blessed — and she was right for saying that.

Catholics love Mary, we honor her, and do these things because we have a bigger love for her Son…but we don’t worship her — that is reserved only for her Son.

If you still believe Catholicism teaches to worship Mary, please direct me to the paragraph in the Catechism that says to worship her. You can't because it doesn't.​

Larry, I respect you and love you and enjoy speaking with you, however, in this case I must say to you that what you are saying my be real to you but they are not real in life nor the Catholic churches I have been in over the years.

 

[Major]

Mitspa - you really should be very careful of your mudslinging.
"And the rape of children is a sad truth, that relates directly to the godliness of your supposed faith. "
There is no shortage of child rape amongst you protestants either.
The Catholic Church catches the most heat because we're the most visible.

I have to tell you Glo that a directive from the insurance company that handels our church, stated that the Catholic church has to this date paid out 2.7 BILLION dollars in lawsuit settelments concerning Catholic Bishops alone in abusing children.

I am not sure that you can calim the other Christian denominations have paid out that much money so it is what it is.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

LS - You know I respect you guys a lot.. This is in interesting topic.. I wanted to just present my view on this Biblically.. I will stick only to Bible verses..

First, Jesus is our High Priest.. The important point to note here is, only Jesus can sympathize for our weakness.. For He is the One without any sin.. Mary or other saints, all have fallen short.. They CANNOT sympathize for our weakness and sins.. So they cannot intercede on behalf of our sins..

Hebrews 4: 14-15
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin

Second, Paul condemns worship to anyone other than God.. Serving or worshiping any creation other Creator is clearly wrong..

Romans 1:25
because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who
is blessed forever! Amen.

Finally, prayer is always to God.. And only to God.. I don't think we have any Biblical evidence of anyone praying to anyone other than Father in heaven.. I think Lord's prayer is so important.. Jesus clearly taught us how to pray.. The first point he stresses is, prayers are directed towards our Father in heaven.. It is a personal communication between us and God.. Not to anyone else..

Mathew 6:9
Pray like this: Our Father in heaven,...

Personally I think it boils down to whether a person would believe in Sola Scriptura or not.. I believe in Sola Scriptura and you don't If that is not agreed upon, nothing else could be! But I think it is good to talk on basis of scripture. I have done that with you in past and it was a pleasure..

I don't think any of us are disagreeing that only God deserves worship. I think what this is boiling down to is WHAT is worship. Protestants don't believe that talking to others or honoring your mother and father is worship. Nor do Catholic. Protestants believe worship is the ultimate form of love and submission to God, offering one's self entirely. As to Catholics. Catholics only do this with God, and not Mary nor the saints.

I think the confusion is that non-Catholic Christians believe Catholics do this despite Catholic teaching. Catholic Christians, however, submit themselves to God alone, but we continue to honor, in God's name, those who have especially submitted themselves to Him as being in the community of the Body of Christ.

This can be very complex for some. This is why, without reviewing what it is and what it isn't, it seems almost stupid. "How can Catholics be so stupid? They claim they believe in God but then blatantly worship others? How is it that smart people are Catholics? How could they fall for such heretical tricks?!" This is almost always the mindset of anti-Catholicism, but it's fueled by a lack of understanding and research.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Larry, I respect you and love you and enjoy speaking with you, however, in this case I must say to you that what you are saying my be real to you but they are not real in life nor the Catholic churches I have been in over the years.

I know you do -- and I always enjoy talking to you.

Consider this -- this is extremely hypothetical, but let's use this extreme as an example for argument's sake:
Let's say Christ's Church that he founded was indeed the Catholic Church. I don't you don't believe it, but humor me for a moment and pretend that is the case. And let's say single Catholic, both laity and clergy, began worshiping Mary. In fact, not only Mary, but they began worshiping the pope, worshiping the Church, worshiping saints...and I'll go further, 100% of the Catholic clergy have abused children and condone it...

Clearly, this is a broken body of the Church...however, even though this is such a broken body, does this mean Christ made a mistaken when he founded His Church? Is it that this magisterium that he founded -- the invisible Church He instituted -- is still good, just the people aren't?

Thankfully, most in the Church, laity and clergy, are sincere in their Christianity and know what is good and what isn't...but we don't regard the people as the Church and end it there--the people are the body, but the magisterium is also invisible. Just as man is both visible and invisible (his soul) so is the Church.

I'm not making this an argument for why you should be Catholic -- but rather why horrible acts within the Church doesn't equal an argument against the Church itself.

 

[Major]

Oh boy. I don't know how many times I've said, verbatim, asking others to pray for us is not bypassing God. We pray to God -- every prayer said is directed up to God, in worship of Him, in recognition of Him.

You can say it all you want, but you know nothing of what Catholicism teaches. This is why you claim you read the Catechism (which I highly doubt you did -- I suspect you googled parts of it), and still have no doubt what it says.

Please find me one verse that says God is a god of the dead. Find one verse that says asking others to pray for one another is wrong. Find me one verse that says saints in heaven are dead. Find me one section in the catechism that says the Church says to pray to Mary.

Why do you think you have no need for a magisterium?

God is a god of the dead?

1.
In Matthew, Mark, and Luke, we have an account of a discussion Jesus had with a group of Sadducees, who scripture explains, did not believe in a resurrection of the dead (Matt 22:23, Mark 12:18, Luke 20:27).

As a Catholic you have pointed to the phrase "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living" as proof that people never really die, but rather their "soul" continues to live on after death. However it is clear from the above passages that the issue in question is God's power to raise the dead from the grave in a resurrection, something the Sadducees clearly rejected. The question posed does not address who's wife the woman would be after she is dead, while still in the grave, but rather after her resurrection, because the Sadducees assumed death to be final and irreversible. Catholics who cite these passages to support Catholic teaching on the state of the dead (purgatory etc.) are doing so out of context, and this is apparent to most any reader who will merely take the time to study the matter.

Find me one section in the catechism that says the Church says to pray to Mary.

From the......"CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (SECOND EDITION).
2.
2673 In prayer the Holy Spirit unites us to the person of the only Son, in his glorified humanity, through which and in which our filial prayer unites us in the Church with the Mother of Jesus.

2674 Mary gave her consent in faith at the Annunciation and maintained it without hesitation at the foot of the Cross. Ever since, her motherhood has extended to the brothers and sisters of her Son "who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties."28 Jesus, the only mediator, is the way of our prayer; Mary, his mother and ours, is wholly transparent to him: she "shows the way" (hodigitria), and is herself "the Sign" of the way, according to the traditional iconography of East and West.

2675 Beginning with Mary's unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first "magnifies" the Lord for the "great things" he did for his lowly servant and through her for all human beings29 the second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused.

2676 This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria:
Hail Mary [or Rejoice, Mary]: the greeting of the angel Gabriel opens this prayer. It is God himself who, through his angel as intermediary, greets Mary. Our prayer dares to take up this greeting to Mary with the regard God had for the lowliness of his humble servant and to exult in the joy he finds in her.30
"34 Mary is "blessed among women" because she believed in the fulfillment of the Lord's word. Abraham. because of his faith, became a blessing for all the nations of the earth.35 Mary, because of her faith, became the mother of believers, through whom all nations of the earth receive him who is God's own blessing: Jesus, the "fruit of thy womb."
2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"36 Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: "Let it be to me according to your word."37 By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: "Thy will be done."

 

[LysanderShapiro]

God is a god of the dead?

1.
In Matthew, Mark, and Luke, we have an account of a discussion Jesus had with a group of Sadducees, who scripture explains, did not believe in a resurrection of the dead (Matt 22:23, Mark 12:18, Luke 20:27).

As a Catholic you have pointed to the phrase "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living" as proof that people never really die, but rather their "soul" continues to live on after death. However it is clear from the above passages that the issue in question is God's power to raise the dead from the grave in a resurrection, something the Sadducees clearly rejected. The question posed does not address who's wife the woman would be after she is dead, while still in the grave, but rather after her resurrection, because the Sadducees assumed death to be final and irreversible. Catholics who cite these passages to support Catholic teaching on the state of the dead (purgatory etc.) are doing so out of context, and this is apparent to most any reader who will merely take the time to study the matter.

Find me one section in the catechism that says the Church says to pray to Mary.

From the......"CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (SECOND EDITION).
2.
2673 In prayer the Holy Spirit unites us to the person of the only Son, in his glorified humanity, through which and in which our filial prayer unites us in the Church with the Mother of Jesus.

2674 Mary gave her consent in faith at the Annunciation and maintained it without hesitation at the foot of the Cross. Ever since, her motherhood has extended to the brothers and sisters of her Son "who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties."28 Jesus, the only mediator, is the way of our prayer; Mary, his mother and ours, is wholly transparent to him: she "shows the way" (hodigitria), and is herself "the Sign" of the way, according to the traditional iconography of East and West.

2675 Beginning with Mary's unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first "magnifies" the Lord for the "great things" he did for his lowly servant and through her for all human beings29 the second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused.

2676 This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria:
Hail Mary [or Rejoice, Mary]: the greeting of the angel Gabriel opens this prayer. It is God himself who, through his angel as intermediary, greets Mary. Our prayer dares to take up this greeting to Mary with the regard God had for the lowliness of his humble servant and to exult in the joy he finds in her.30
"34 Mary is "blessed among women" because she believed in the fulfillment of the Lord's word. Abraham. because of his faith, became a blessing for all the nations of the earth.35 Mary, because of her faith, became the mother of believers, through whom all nations of the earth receive him who is God's own blessing: Jesus, the "fruit of thy womb."
2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"36 Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: "Let it be to me according to your word."37 By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: "Thy will be done."

With all due respect, I never said the Catechism doesn't say Marian prayer -- I said to show me where it says to worship Mary.

But also, I agree with you -- I argued strongly that God is not a God of the dead -- He's a God of the living. Someone else was making the argument that He's a God of the dead. No, I completely side with you on that 100%

 

[Euphemia]

One prays to whomever one worships.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

One prays to whomever one worships.

Prayer to God should automatically equal worship. The word "pray" doesn't limit to that and never has in old language, including the ancient languages.

Prayer to God DOES mean worship, or at least SHOULD always mean worship. But I think to say "One prays to whomever one worships" presupposes so much fallaciously. Because if someone prays to Mary in asking her to pray with you to God, then it doesn't mean worship of her.

The most common Marian prayer is the Hail Mary -- taken directly from scriptural passages. Neither Gabriel nor Elizabeth were worshiping her, were they?

But prayer to God and prayer to Mary, for example, are to very different things. And prayer should always include adoration to God, but not to anyone else. In fact, the definition of prayer is this:

The act or practice of praying.

1. An earnest request; entreaty; supplication
2. (a) humble entreaty addressed to God, to a god, etc.: (b) a request made to God, etc.; as, her prayer for his safe return; (c) any set formula for praying, as to God.

Prayer can certainly involve an act of adoration when it is directed to God--and SHOULD, but the term does not necessarily restrict to adoration. It can simply mean “an entreaty.”