Is Getting Baptised Needed?

[LysanderShapiro]

So what have you done to purge these people and those who have protected them from your so-called church? Why are you still apart of such a group that allows such things to continue?

They have been removed from the priesthood. In the past, the universal means to dealing with this was transfer, but the bishops council said "this is a bad idea -- they will just do it again somewhere else." which has happened in fact. So they began removing them -- many arrested and others in extensive counseling outside of the priesthood.

But if you are against the Church for this reason, you should be this venomous against many other institutions, especially since they continued to practice this means of dealing with abuses.

I don't mean this arrogantly, but it is important for one to do his research before he holds a specific position against a specific issue. Had you done your homework, you wouldn't have made this trite argument.

Rather, you should have explained how the Catholic Church is evil because it would never have accepted Pope Alexander VI as bishop of Rome. With all of his scandals and theft and greed, how could a Church welcome that? THAT should have been your answer...but also, that's a bad argument too, and one which can be explained, and HAS been explained as well.

I'm only suggesting reaching for top-shelf arguments, not bottom-shelf ones.

 

[Mitspa]

They have been removed from the priesthood. In the past, the universal means to dealing with this was transfer, but the bishops council said "this is a bad idea -- they will just do it again somewhere else." which has happened in fact. So they began removing them -- many arrested and others in extensive counseling outside of the priesthood.

But if you are against the Church for this reason, you should be this venomous against many other institutions, especially since they continued to practice this means of dealing with abuses.

I don't mean this arrogantly, but it is important for one to do his research before he holds a specific position against a specific issue. Had you done your homework, you wouldn't have made this trite argument.

Rather, you should have explained how the Catholic Church is evil because it would never have accepted Pope Alexander VI as bishop of Rome. With all of his scandals and theft and greed, how could a Church welcome that? THAT should have been your answer...but also, that's a bad argument too, and one which can be explained, and HAS been explained as well.

I'm only suggesting reaching for top-shelf arguments, not bottom-shelf ones.

No what have YOU done to stop this in "your" church and why are you still a part of such a group that allows these things to happen and continue?

 

[LysanderShapiro]

No what have YOU done to stop this in "your" church and why are you still a part of such a group that allows these things to happen and continue?

Oh, I see. I'll try to give as best an answer as I can.
Thankfully, this has been ethically addressed before I was even received into the Church. Bishops all over the world have demanded a reform, if you will, on how these abusers are handled -- no more smacks on the wrists, no more transfers. Cut them from their activity within the priesthood, and for many of them, they were dealt with under the court system.

Now what have I personally done within the Catholic Church? As a layman, I have continued to pray for the victims. Try to spread the love of Christ. I met one individual at my parish. He was abused as a child back in the 1970s. This is someone who continues to worship Christ through the sacrament of the Eucharist, continues to love Him, and continues to be a practicing Catholic.

He never said this to me directly, but told my RCIA sponsor how he would never leave the Church since it wasn't the Church that abused him, it was the a priest in the Church.

I will never be as good a Christian as he is because this is someone who really suffered and saw the truth despite what he went through. He loves the Lord that much, and I hope my faith will be that strong.

If you mean within my parish, I am glad to say the parish I belong to has no record of this. There have only been less than 2% of this around the world. Now, even .1% of abuses is .1% too many abuses, but if I were to find out that one of our parish priests was conducting even something miniscule compared to the sex crimes, I would have to report it to the archdiocese and make sure anything wrong is being corrected.

In fact, I did this last year when I was concerned of Spanish mass was violating a liturgical practice. It was very minor, it was only regarding music, but it was something that I felt ought to be reviewed and not overlooked.

But lastly, what if I had done nothing? Would my bad behavior mean the Church is wrong or I am wrong? This is why I can't accept this as a good argument either.

It's like when pro-choice advocates blame pro-life advocates for not adopting.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

No what have YOU done to stop this in "your" church and why are you still a part of such a group that allows these things to happen and continue?

But I am wondering since I am here...I'm not sure you were here the last time I was a regular poster...but am I welcome here as a fellow Christian or as an outsider? Am I causing more grief than goodwill?

 

[Glomung]

This has gone from the rediculous to the absurd.

Ok. Where were you protestants when Jim and Tammy faye were fleecing the innocent? What have you done about it?
Where were you when Jimmy Swaggart was playing with prostitutes?
What have you done about the huge ongoing fraud that is Benny Hinn?
What about Haggard and his drugs and young men? Did you do anything at all?

What have you done about the crime and malfeasance in your church?
Obviously Protestantism is evil because the are evil Protestants.

See how that works?

I am no more responsible for the crimes of other individuals than you are.

 

[Major]

With all due respect, I never said the Catechism doesn't say Marian prayer -- I said to show me where it says to worship Mary.

But also, I agree with you -- I argued strongly that God is not a God of the dead -- He's a God of the living. Someone else was making the argument that He's a God of the dead. No, I completely side with you on that 100%

With all due respect to you Larry, I copied pasted your exact words which were.....
"Find me one section in the catechism that says the Church says to pray to Mary."

 

[Major]

But I am wondering since I am here...I'm not sure you were here the last time I was a regular poster...but am I welcome here as a fellow Christian or as an outsider? Am I causing more grief than goodwill?

Larry.....you are fine! IMO you are welcome as a believer with lots of compassion.

Just as in your faith there are those in mine who become very excited when Protestants and Catholics come together.
It is the nature of their existence and always will be.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

With all due respect to you Larry, I copied pasted your exact words which were.....
"Find me one section in the catechism that says the Church says to pray to Mary."

That's my fault. I meant worship, not pray. Naturally there is Marian prayer, but not Marian worship.

 

[Major]

This has gone from the rediculous to the absurd.

Ok. Where were you protestants when Jim and Tammy faye were fleecing the innocent? What have you done about it?
Where were you when Jimmy Swaggart was playing with prostitutes?
What have you done about the huge ongoing fraud that is Benny Hinn?
What about Haggard and his drugs and young men? Did you do anything at all?

What have you done about the crime and malfeasance in your church?
Obviously Protestantism is evil because the are evil Protestants.

See how that works?

I am no more responsible for the crimes of other individuals than you are.

Boy are you ever correct.

But personally.....I never had any interaction neither did I support any of those nut cases and frauds and false teachers. I did then what I am doing now and that is to get out the truth to any and all who will listen.

 

[Major]

That's my fault. I meant worship, not pray. Naturally there is Marian prayer, but not Marian worship.

I just wanted us to all be on the same page.

 

[christianbacktobasics]

I think this is actually a very good discussion topic as depending on what type of Christian you are, there may be a different answer.

However, I'll give my own take on it.

No, getting baptised is not required to be saved to get to heaven. The bible says that as long as you accept Jesus as your Lord and savior and believe that he died for our sins and that you ask for his forgiveness, you are saved. BUT, if you can get baptised, do it. You are showing God that you would do anything for him, and it doesn't hurt to try to be as close as you can to him. Doing whatever you can to follow what God says is the best way to have the best life you can.

You really seem to have provoked some conversation on this one. I'd agree that the Word talks of three baptsims, the blood, the water and the oil, the three baptsims which a Christian can experience as he or she lives out their lives. The baptism in water is a must for one's walk but not for salvation as it's the outward act of something which has occoured within and if a person doesn't want to go forward for this great event, then I'd be questioning the individual's experience of Jesus Christ. I've seen the most timid of folk go up and forward for baptism but despite their fears of standing up before people, they did it, because they had encountered Jesus Christ. I can't say it's needful for salvation but it would certainly make me think just how real this individual's experience of Jesus has been and whether more ministry was required on the crucial subject of, have you truly given your life to Christ.. God bless.....

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I just wanted us to all be on the same page.

You can never be too careful. And your references of the Catechism are excellent.

 

[Ravindran]

But I am wondering since I am here...I'm not sure you were here the last time I was a regular poster...but am I welcome here as a fellow Christian or as an outsider? Am I causing more grief than goodwill?

We will probably never agree on many things.. But I think we can always have a decent discussion without any insults.. So grief for me..

 

[Mitspa]

This has gone from the rediculous to the absurd.

Ok. Where were you protestants when Jim and Tammy faye were fleecing the innocent? What have you done about it?
Where were you when Jimmy Swaggart was playing with prostitutes?
What have you done about the huge ongoing fraud that is Benny Hinn?
What about Haggard and his drugs and young men? Did you do anything at all?

What have you done about the crime and malfeasance in your church?
Obviously Protestantism is evil because the are evil Protestants.

See how that works?

I am no more responsible for the crimes of other individuals than you are.

Well I would never support, uphold or defend any of these people. But the systematic rape of children and protection of such people cannot be defended by pointing to the sins of others. Yes all catholics are responsible to purge such people from their so-called church!

 

[Mitspa]

But I am wondering since I am here...I'm not sure you were here the last time I was a regular poster...but am I welcome here as a fellow Christian or as an outsider? Am I causing more grief than goodwill?

I have mentioned over and over that these issues only lead to strive and contention and have attempted to refrain from comment on your religion, but you have attempted to promote a system that is clearly in error and promotes ungodliness. Yet you continue and then act as if you are seeking "goodwill''? I have not seen a debate on these issues, until you came and attempted to promote your catholic agenda.

 

[Mitspa]

Boy are you ever correct.

But personally.....I never had any interaction neither did I support any of those nut cases and frauds and false teachers. I did then what I am doing now and that is to get out the truth to any and all who will listen.

So is this the same as systematic rape of children to you? Do you really think that folks who would uphold and defend such things will ever be moved by the reason of scripture? NO! if these sort of crimes to not cause them to question and "FLEE" from this false system, then nothing will.

 

[Glomung]

Well I would never support, uphold or defend any of these people. But the systematic rape of children and protection of such people cannot be defended by pointing to the sins of others. Yes all catholics are responsible to purge such people from their so-called church!

I agree completely. I do not support, uphold or defend any of these people or their actions.
"So-called church" is a cheap shot, unworthy of you. Please try to uphold a standard of decency in these conversations.
I'm old school. From my point of view, all these child molesters should be taken out and shot.
But the faint of heart in the crowd don't go for such harsh justice.

What did Our Lord say? something about millstones and the sea?

 

[Where is the Messiah]

Very interesting discussion. I have my point of view but I think I'll continue to just listen.

 

[Mitspa]

Well I think, I have said enough?

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I have mentioned over and over that these issues only lead to strive and contention and have attempted to refrain from comment on your religion, but you have attempted to promote a system that is clearly in error and promotes ungodliness. Yet you continue and then act as if you are seeking "goodwill''? I have not seen a debate on these issues, until you came and attempted to promote your catholic agenda.

In the past, there wasn't so much of a problem. We were all aware this was a forum for discussion and recognized our differences. No one was offended by opposing perspectives. If someone said something that contradicted the other, he would defend it and explain why, but it was never done spitefully. In fact, most everyone got along pretty well.

I never came here with an agenda. I am not here to shove Catholicism down anyone's throats. That said, I won't cover my faith and pretend it doesn't exist. If this was a forum made up of 98% Catholics and someone said something against Protestantism, I suspect you would stand your ground and defend it because it is your faith -- and you'd be right to do it too. But it would be unfair to call you out as having an agenda just because you defended it.

A few times already, people have pointed out my Catholic faith and tried to make a claim that was off subject -- I said not that was not the point and we needed stick to the subject. I would never do that if I did indeed have an agenda -- I would have taken the bait and went on.

And yes, of course I seek goodwill -- what else would you suggest? I didn't come to make enemies or give anyone a bad day. I think discussion, understanding each others' differences, and finding each others' commonalities is a very good thing. Coming from a Protestant family (with the exception of me), having mostly Protestant friends, and working in a Protestant and Catholic organization, having the discussion between two groups is something I've been passionate about for quite awhile.

It's noted that I'm not welcome with you. I won't address anything you say because, in all honesty, I feel as though I'm walking on eggshells with you. But the last thing I want to do is make an enemy. Hopefully we can reach a common ground, which is ultimately our love for God.