Is Getting Baptised Needed?

[Euphemia]

Prayer to God should automatically equal worship. The word "pray" doesn't limit to that and never has in old language, including the ancient languages.

Prayer to God DOES mean worship, or at least SHOULD always mean worship. But I think to say "One prays to whomever one worships" presupposes so much fallaciously. Because if someone prays to Mary in asking her to pray with you to God, then it doesn't mean worship of her.

The most common Marian prayer is the Hail Mary -- taken directly from scriptural passages. Neither Gabriel nor Elizabeth were worshiping her, were they?

That is a rationalization only, sadly. What Gabriel said to Mary is not a pattern for us to speak as a prayer. She cannot hear you, nor dos she want to, I should think.

Erecting images that are supposed to represent Mary elicit all sorts of worshipful behaviour. Hence, the danger in creating images against God's command.

 

[CCW95A]

With all due respect, I never said the Catechism doesn't say Marian prayer -- I said to show me where it says to worship Mary.

But also, I agree with you -- I argued strongly that God is not a God of the dead -- He's a God of the living. Someone else was making the argument that He's a God of the dead. No, I completely side with you on that 100%

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

There is not more that one who mediates between the Christian and his God. Payer is worship.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

There is not more that one who mediates between the Christian and his God.

I agree 100% -- there is only one mediator between man and God, and that's Christ. He is our savior.

Payer is worship.

Prayer to God SHOULD always include adoration, but prayer, by definition, isn't a synonym for worship.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

That is a rationalization only, sadly. What Gabriel said to Mary is not a pattern for us to speak as a prayer. She cannot hear you, nor dos she want to, I should think.

Erecting images that are supposed to represent Mary elicit all sorts of worshipful behaviour. Hence, the danger in creating images against God's command.

This isn't a relative subject. It's not a matter of opinion, but rather fact.

 

[Euphemia]

This isn't a relative subject. It's not a matter of opinion, but rather fact.

Except that you try to rationalize what you believe by flimsy means...and opinion. Not the truth of the word of God, or fact.

 

[CCW95A]

I agree 100% -- there is only one mediator between man and God, and that's Christ. He is our savior.



Prayer to God SHOULD always include adoration, but prayer, by definition, isn't a synonym for worship.

All prayer is directed towards God and is directed by God. You can not worship the Father unless you first have the Spirit.
You can not magnify the Lord until you first have the Lord. We do not know what to pray for as we should, so the Holy Spirit comes to our aid and helps us. The Father knows exactly what we are going to ask for before we ask, because he is the one who tells what to pray for! I can garuntee the Holy Spirit is not going to tell you or lead you to pray or worship someone other that God Himself. God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship him in Spirit and in truth.

 

[Glomung]

I think that many have a huge misunderstanding of what the word "pray" means.

Pray = ask, no more, no less. Sadly, not as obvious in modern usage as it once was.
As a child you prayed to your parents constantly. Any time you ask anyone for anything you are praying to them.
When you ask your boss for a raise you are praying to your boss.
When you ask your kids to be quiet you are praying to them.

Now, are things a bit clearer?

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Except that you try to rationalize what you believe by flimsy means...and opinion. Not the truth of the word of God, or fact.

On the contrary. I mean no disrespect, but I think on the opposite end, you're de-rationalizing in order to decide what it means in order for it to fit your opinion. In fact, without the rationalization of God's Word, how can one intellectually realize His truth?

By no means is everything not a mystery -- faith itself is a mystery. God is a mystery, but only because we cannot fully understand Him humanly speaking. Nevertheless, it doesn't mean going against reason in order to find God. God and His truth can be directed to by reason and rationality.

 

[Euphemia]

I think that many have a huge misunderstanding of what the word "pray" means.

Pray = ask, no more, no less. Sadly, not as obvious in modern usage as it once was.
As a child you prayed to your parents constantly. Any time you ask anyone for anything you are praying to them.
When you ask your boss for a raise you are praying to your boss.
When you ask your kids to be quiet you are praying to them.

Now, are things a bit clearer?

When we are discussing prayer among Christians we are talking about all of what prayer entails: petitions and supplications, worship, adoration, confession and thanksgiving---not to mention just talking to God about anything and everything.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I think that many have a huge misunderstanding of what the word "pray" means.

Pray = ask, no more, no less. Sadly, not as obvious in modern usage as it once was.
As a child you prayed to your parents constantly. Any time you ask anyone for anything you are praying to them.
When you ask your boss for a raise you are praying to your boss.
When you ask your kids to be quiet you are praying to them.

Now, are things a bit clearer?

Coming from a Protestant background, it is very difficult to divorce prayer from worship. The term sounds extremely blasphemous and even silly to say "I prayed to my parents." Nevertheless, the example you gave is completely right. This is why, in Shakespearean language, someone might say "I pray you." In Much Ado About Nothing, none of the characters were worshiping each other, but requesting of each other.

And of course, when we pray to Mary or the saints in heaven, we are requesting their intercession as we worship and come to God for something, be it forgiveness, help, or thankfulness.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

When we are discussing prayer among Christians we are talking about all of what prayer entails: petitions and supplications, worship, adoration, confession and thanksgiving---not to mention just talking to God about anything and everything.

We're all Christians here. We just disagree on certain doctrinal perspectives. But we all believe and submit to worship of only one.

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa - you really should be very careful of your mudslinging.
"And the rape of children is a sad truth, that relates directly to the godliness of your supposed faith. "
There is no shortage of child rape amongst you protestants either.
The Catholic Church catches the most heat because we're the most visible.

well of course, point the finger! I reject that ANY person that in ANY way harms children in this manner should ever be allowed to be in a place of authority or in any way defended or approved. I don't know of ONE case of such wickedness among those I consider to be the "church"...NEVER...and even if you have? Its no defense for the systematic rape of children and cover-up of these CRIMES that we see in this religious group.

 

[Euphemia]

On the contrary. I mean no disrespect, but I think on the opposite end, you're de-rationalizing in order to decide what it means in order for it to fit your opinion.

Not at all.

In fact, without the rationalization of God's Word, how can one intellectually realize His truth?

There is one thing to intellectually know the truth but there is the spiritual knowing, where Holy Spirit drops His truth right into our spirits.

By no means is everything not a mystery -- faith itself is a mystery. God is a mystery, but only because we cannot fully understand Him humanly speaking. Nevertheless, it doesn't mean going against reason in order to find God. God and His truth can be directed to by reason and rationality.

We have the understanding available by Holy Spirit to know all mysteries. His truth is known beyond man's rationale.

However, in the sense I was using the word, "rationalize" I was saying that so many people appeal to the soulish power of reason to make questionable argument palatable or creditable.

 

[Euphemia]

Coming from a Protestant background, it is very difficult to divorce prayer from worship. The term sounds extremely blasphemous and even silly to say "I prayed to my parents." Nevertheless, the example you gave is completely right. This is why, in Shakespearean language, someone might say "I pray you." In Much Ado About Nothing, none of the characters were worshiping each other, but requesting of each other.

And of course, when we pray to Mary or the saints in heaven, we are requesting their intercession as we worship and come to God for something, be it forgiveness, help, or thankfulness.

The saints in heaven do not have an ear to your prayers, nor do they com to god on your behalf. We are to pray to God through His Son. He suffered and died for that position, and NO ONE ELSE!

 

[LysanderShapiro]

well of course, point the finger! I reject that ANY person that in ANY way harms children in this manner should ever be allowed to be in a place of authority or in any way defended or approved.

I agree. And so does the Catholic Church. Have you read any of the official statements regarding the abuse crises? None of it forgives, but it's a bad argument to suggest that due to the sins of individuals an infallible magisterium, that is the Church founded by Christ, is now wrong.

I don't know of ONE case of such wickedness among those I consider to be the "church"...NEVER...and even if you have? Its no defense for the systematic rape of children and cover-up of these CRIMES that we see in this religious group.

Mitspa, have you even read any of the information or are you going by sensationalism? I would've thought you were smarter than that.

 

[Mitspa]

I must have overlooked this statement.
This is the same argument Atheists have against the Catholic Church itself. How many times have I heard "Oh, you're a Catholic? So you condone pedophiles and rapists?"

Right even the ungodly see the wickedness of these people and reject that these folks could ever represent a just God.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Right even the ungodly see the wickedness of these people and reject that these folks could ever represent a just God.

Precisely.

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa, have you even read any of the information or are you going by sensationalism? I would've thought you were smarter than that.

You shall know them by their fruits! and evil this great may sound sensational, but the truth of mans wickedness often is!

 

[Mitspa]

Precisely.

So what have you done to purge these people and those who have protected them from your so-called church? Why are you still apart of such a group that allows such things to continue?

 

[LysanderShapiro]

You shall know them by their fruits! and evil this great may sound sensational, but the truth of mans wickedness often is!

Respectfully, I was thinking the same thing.