Is Getting Baptised Needed?
- Thread starter ThomasA
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Well its seems quite simple to me...clearly the "works" that James is teaching are "works of faith" NOT "works of the law"....there are two biblical principles one needs to see? "the law of works" and the "law of faith" ...now James is teaching the "law of faith" that real faith has actions of faith.
Give me some examples. I just want to be sure we're on the right page. I think we are, but I want to avoid confusion.
I am not sure, but I think you are saying a person can not have grace until he his has faith to obtain it. To obtain is to get something were as access means you always had it but decided to use it. If that is true that we did not have grace and then by faith getting it, then we ourselves did something to earn it, because faith has works that go along with it. It is not by works we are saved so no one can boast of what they received by their works of faith. To take this one step further we have this, and I ask you do you see faith mentioned anywhere in the scripture?
2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Our salvation was given to us before the world began, and this salvation is by grace without faith being the means of getting it.
As for Judas their are many people who claim to be Christians, but by their actions they deny him.
Let's agree that we both mean what we say regarding the subject of Grace. It is indeed a free gift of God for all who choose to accept it. We're getting into semantics and now defining "obtain" and "access" but that's not the heart of the disagreement.
In very layman's terms, how are we justified? That is what we are discussing.
You asked if I see faith anywhere in the scriptures. The answer is YES: Hebrews 11:6, Ephesians 2:8, James 2:24, Galatians 2:16, 1 Corinthians 13:2, Romans 3:28. Faith is all over the Scriptures, and teaches how necessary it is.
I repeat, I am not saying one doesn't need faith. And also, I repeat, I am not saying we are not saved by GRACE ALONE...what I am discussing is how is man justified? We haven't even begun to discuss because we're getting caught up in word play and the subject of grace. We agree on the subject of grace, but we are dismissing the discussion of faith and works.
Definitive verses that teach us that salvation is by the power of faith alone are:
John 3:16 (NLT)
For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
Romans 1:16 (NLT)
For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes—the Jew first and also the Gentile.
Romans 5:1-2 (NLT)
Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us. 2 Because of our faith, Christ has brought us into this place of undeserved privilege where we now stand, and we confidently and joyfully look forward to sharing God’s glory.
*By faith we have access to grace.
Ephesians 2:8 (NLT)
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
Obedience to God and the good works that we are called to (which are the works of Christ and do not come out of striving) are the outcome of the regeneration that the true believer undergoes when his faith is activated, and his spirit is quickened to life because Jesus has just moved in.
John 3:16 (NLT)
For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
Romans 1:16 (NLT)
For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes—the Jew first and also the Gentile.
Romans 5:1-2 (NLT)
Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us. 2 Because of our faith, Christ has brought us into this place of undeserved privilege where we now stand, and we confidently and joyfully look forward to sharing God’s glory.
*By faith we have access to grace.
Ephesians 2:8 (NLT)
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
Obedience to God and the good works that we are called to (which are the works of Christ and do not come out of striving) are the outcome of the regeneration that the true believer undergoes when his faith is activated, and his spirit is quickened to life because Jesus has just moved in.
Respectfully, you left out even more verses that express the importance of faith. You didn't have to limit your verses.
However, none of these verses suggest faith alone. Rather, they suggest faith as necessary, or even the first component of justification. This is why I would never in a million years discredit these verses, but I do disagree with your interpretation of them. Because if they DO suggest faith alone, then these verses are now useless:
James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:26
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Revelation 22:12
Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
1 Corinthians 13:1-3
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
James 2:14
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Not only does the doctrine of Sola Fide not appear in the Bible, but it goes AGAINST what the Bible teaches--that we are NOT saved by faith alone. In fact, the only time you will find the words "faith" and "alone" together is where it says we are NOT justified by faith alone. And if works (not our own works, but the works fueled by the Holy Spirit--I MUST emphasize this) has nothing to do with our salvation, then why is it that every passage in the NT that talks about judgement says that we will be judged by our works?
John 3:36's first half says "He who believes in the Son has eternal life" and most people think the opposite of believe is disbelieve. But in Scriptural language, the opposite is to disobey. That's why the second half says "but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
One analogy someone gave in regards to the term "believe" is a hot dog. If you were to go to a restaurant and order a hot dog, you'd expect the hot dog cooked, put between a bun, and put on a plate. People have taken "believe" and stripped it down as if the restaurant server handed you a frozen hot dog and said "you ordered a hot dog! You didn't say you wanted it cooked and on a bun."
Without the regeneration that comes with faith in Jesus Christ, by receiving His great free gift of salvation---by faith alone, we will never be empowered to do the works of Christ, which reveal our justification by that precious blood.
It all starts with us placing our faith in the truth of Jesus Christ---agreeing and confessing that we are sinners in need of a Saviour.
Euphemia,
I mean no disrespect in saying this, but you're stuck on only one part of this and dismissing the rest. I agree--repeat, I AGREE with you that faith is massively necessary for salvation. YOU NEED FAITH FOR SALVATION. But this does not equal ONLY faith. That is the disagreement, not whether or not faith is necessary.
But the discussion to continue, we have to understand each others' positions.
LS - Let's take a scenario.. People in dead beds.. Minutes before their life.. When they confess their sins and accept Jesus, do you think they would get into heaven? Pretty much at the last minute of their lives? More importantly, does "everyone" who does it will get into heaven? Do you believe this?
I am not stuck on one part. There is only one thing that saves us---faith in Jesus Christ. Works have no power to save us. The passages about works are about the good works of Christ we do without striving to do them, but as a natural outflow of our salvation and our faith walk. It's like our spiritual fruit which we cannot strive to produce, but it comes out of our ever-increasing close walk with God.
Without such things, there is a question as to whether we have actually experienced Christ. It is the righteous works we do, generated by the new nature in us that reveal the Person within us---Jesus.
Question: Can faith devoid of Godly charitable works save you?
Glomung
Account Closed
If their conversion is genuine, yes. What is likelihood of a person having a genuine change of heart at their deathbed?
It really is not a valid scenario, more of a straw man argument to divert attention from the real issues.
The issue is "can a person have a real relationship with Christ and it bear no fruit?"
That is the core of the "faith and works" debate.
Everyone here claims to have faith, some claim boundless faith. Yet if they have not actually done anything with their supposed faith, what is their faith worth? That is why a "faith without works is dead".
If you claim to trust in Jesus (have faith) then do what He says and you'll have works aplenty.
Those who have no works have no faith either.
Logically we are assuming that salvation is first by faith/works then salvation comes which is not true. God saved us before the world was ever created. and that boggles the human natural mind. How can one be saved first and then by faith later? Because the Lord God is not subject to or limited to a time framed world in which we live. God calls the end from the beginning. What God wants now he simply does and finishes all of his works in the beginning, not the end. As a Church we are suppose to be finding out what these things are that he did for us in the beginning, then access them by faith. Even when we were still yet dead in our sins God raised us up together and made us sit together in Heavenly places in Christ. There is no mention of faith here either! Now that is grace apart from faith, and works. Before you can grow in these things you first have reconciles these scriptures together, and if you don't you will not want to venture there because you don't know the answer.
In a nut shell salvation is strictly an act of God on behalf of man who could not do it for himself. He gives salvation to man but he has to access it by faith. Not only is salvation by grace alone apart from works which we do, but even now we still need his help in everything. God did for man what man could not do, and he is still doing for man what man still can not do through his Son who lives in us. This is the good news.
I have no problem obliging you with the notion that man must ACCESS grace by having faith, but the question is faith alone or faith and the works animated by faith? What if someone has faith great enough to move mountains but no works animated by it?
What was the likely of a murderer like Paul being saved? Genuine change of heart is an act of God.. We are no one to comment on when a person is going to have genuine change of heart..
I once again disagree.. We see this happening so many times in hospital.. It is not that I am making up something that would never happen.. I am talking about something that happens so frequently.. We can either simply those people are not saved because they were too late or accept the fact that salvation is from God and he can show mercy to people just before their death also
I don't think anyone is disagreeing to this.. If a person has genuine faith, then he or she will perform works which will glorify God.. If the person is not bearing fruits, then the faith is a dead faith.. We are not talking about name sake Christians here.. If the thief on cross went to paradise, then the entry condition for heaven is only faith..
I think I've mentioned this a few times already. Wasn't the thief on the cross justified when he submitted himself to Jesus? Jesus promised him salvation. And the thief was moments away from death, so he may have lived a massively sinful and selfish life. Christ knew this was a guy who meant what he said.
Here's a follow up question: Let's say the thief was brought down from his cross by the Romans after he said what he said to Jesus. They licked his wounds, made sure he was brought back to health, gave him his clothes, and he had his life and freedom again. Do you think he would have lived his life for God? I'd argue yes since this is precisely what he did when he offered his heart and life to Jesus, even though it was hardly any of it.
But what if that thief was brought down, brought back to health, given his clothes and his freedom and then changed his mind about Jesus...In fact, what if he said "I met Jesus. He died right next to me in fact. I know it's true." But then still decided to live selfishly, didn't care about living the righteous life, and did whatever he wanted dismissing Christian responsibility altogether...what then? It's a hypothetical scenario, but should be considered when we ask "what if so-and-so had only a minute to live?"
Salvation is not by faith and works. If that was true then the scripture would have said, "we are saved by faith and works"
No amount of faith and works can save anybody, it strictly by God's grace. This is where the deception is, thinking by our actions we are receiving salvation. We do walk by faith and God's Son does work through us, but salvation is not based on these. Man has always wanted to take credit for his own actions when he does something good, but when he does evil he blames someone else. Adam blamed God, Eve blamed the Devil. Are we trying to take credit for something God did for us?
CCW,
what happens to those who do not have faith? Will they enter into the kingdom of heaven?
As Paul says,
"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."
"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory."
Salvation is not an act of man.. It is act of God.. We all know the thief had real faith.. because Jesus said it! It he did not die there, I am sure he would have lived a life pleasing to Lord.. Above scriptures (and many more) support this..