Is sin bad b/c God says so, or does God say so b/c sin is bad?

[Phoneman777]

Grace both covers and converts don't you think ? I think we need to define what we mean by cover. When a man covers a sin it's considered hiding it but when Yahweh covers the sin it means He doesn't hold it against the man.

Psa 32:1-2 KJV A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. (2) Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

What do you think ?

Grace is not a means by which God excuses the same sinful behavior today that He condemned yesterday, but of course you know that, my brother. Grace and mercy are respectively getting what we don't deserve and not getting what we do deserve.

As converts, our choice to return once again to a sinful course separates us from Him and the longer we despise His gracious pleadings to return to Him, the more perilous the ground upon which we stand becomes. Eventually, we will "quench the Spirit", or lose the ability to feel our need to return to Him just as a cool glass of water quenches one's thirst so that he doesn't feel thirsty anymore. Having grieved Him, He tearfully gives up and leaves us as guilty of having committed the Unpardonable Sin - any sin from which we do not repent, while we continue on our course in blissful ignorance that we have even done so. No man can serve two masters and trees only bear one kind of fruit. I want to be a slave to Jesus and bring forth fruits of repentance and obedience.

 

[Phoneman777]

But Christ was not crucifixied under the law. God can do anything. If He chose, He could have saved His son from dying on the cross, God chose not too do so for a reason. God could change anything and everything in a blink of an eye.
He had a purpose, a plan. And finally, yes sin is bad because it is in direct opposition to the character of our savior, but more so because God Said so. When we sin we are breaking God's commandments! When we sin we sin against God and no one else!

The Bible says "I am the Lord, I change not". Yes, God could have saved Jesus from death, but that would demand that the penalty of sin remain for you and I to pay, which is what the entire Plan of Salvation was meant to spare us from. Also, if God could have changed the rules in the middle of the game regarding our guilt of sin, but leave the rules unchanged regarding Satan and his billions of angels, how unfair and unjust would that be a thing before the eyes of all the universe? Why should Satan remain condemned for the same thing that God would choose to excuse in us?

 

[agua]

Grace is not a means by which God excuses the same sinful behavior today that He condemned yesterday, but of course you know that, my brother. Grace and mercy are respectively getting what we don't deserve and not getting what we do deserve.

As converts, our choice to return once again to a sinful course separates us from Him and the longer we despise His gracious pleadings to return to Him, the more perilous the ground upon which we stand becomes. Eventually, we will "quench the Spirit", or lose the ability to feel our need to return to Him just as a cool glass of water quenches one's thirst so that he doesn't feel thirsty anymore. Having grieved Him, He tearfully gives up and leaves us as guilty of having committed the Unpardonable Sin - any sin from which we do not repent, while we continue on our course in blissful ignorance that we have even done so. No man can serve two masters and trees only bear one kind of fruit. I want to be a slave to Jesus and bring forth fruits of repentance and obedience.

Eventually, we will "quench the Spirit", or lose the ability to feel our need to return to Him just as a cool glass of water quenches one's thirst so that he doesn't feel thirsty anymore. Having grieved Him, He tearfully gives up and leaves us as guilty of having committed the Unpardonable Sin - any sin from which we do not repent,

I don't see how a loving Father will desert His Children. Can you show me in scripture where the unpardonable sin is any sin unrepented ? This is interesting because it places you in danger of the LoF if you die while commiting a sin don't you think ?

Yahweh disciplines His Children when they sin but doesn't leave them; ever. We shouldn't confuse loss of place and reward as loss of Salvation imo.

2Ti 2:12-13 KJV If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: (13) If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Unfortunately the tree/fruit analogy doesn't imply a Child of Yahweh never sins. Do you believe a Christian never sins ?

 

[Phoneman777]

I don't see how a loving Father will desert His Children. Can you show me in scripture where the unpardonable sin is any sin unrepented ? This is interesting because it places you in danger of the LoF if you die while commiting a sin don't you think ?

Yahweh disciplines His Children when they sin but doesn't leave them; ever. We shouldn't confuse loss of place and reward as loss of Salvation imo.

2Ti 2:12-13 KJV If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: (13) If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Unfortunately the tree/fruit analogy doesn't imply a Child of Yahweh never sins. Do you believe a Christian never sins ?

Our Heavenly Father does not sit and wait to zap us as soon as we step out from under His authority, a doctrine brought to you by our good friends in the Roman Catholic Church of apostasy. "He hath not dealt with us after our sins." To the contrary, it is when we are outside the umbrella of salvation that He is most earnest and desperate to convince us to return before it's too late. It is our decision to remain lost that results in that very thing b/c persistent rebellion will "sear our conscience", "quench the Spirit", and render it "impossible to renew them again to repentance seeing they crucify the Son of God afresh". In other words, our persistence results in the tragic inability for us to repent of that which we allow ourselves to become ensnared.

The Unpardonable Sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is not any particular sin, but the act of denying the Holy Spirit His divinely appointed work of convicting us of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment, all of which is intended to deliver us from sin. If God' s forgiveness is dependent on our first having asked for it (through repentance), how can we be forgiven of a sin if we are rendered unable to repent of it? Can a who cheats on his wife every Saturday night and then asks for her forgiveness Sunday morning really be considered repentant?

 

[agua]

Our Heavenly Father does not sit and wait to zap us as soon as we step out from under His authority, a doctrine brought to you by our good friends in the Roman Catholic Church of apostasy. "He hath not dealt with us after our sins." To the contrary, it is when we are outside the umbrella of salvation that He is most earnest and desperate to convince us to return before it's too late. It is our decision to remain lost that results in that very thing b/c persistent rebellion will "sear our conscience", "quench the Spirit", and render it "impossible to renew them again to repentance seeing they crucify the Son of God afresh". In other words, our persistence results in the tragic inability for us to repent of that which we allow ourselves to become ensnared.

The Unpardonable Sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is not any particular sin, but the act of denying the Holy Spirit His divinely appointed work of convicting us of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment, all of which is intended to deliver us from sin. If God' s forgiveness is dependent on our first having asked for it (through repentance), how can we be forgiven of a sin if we are rendered unable to repent of it? Can a who cheats on his wife every Saturday night and then asks for her forgiveness Sunday morning really be considered repentant?

The Unpardonable Sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is not any particular sin, but the act of denying the Holy Spirit His divinely appointed work of convicting us of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment, all of which is intended to deliver us from sin.

Can you show me how you come to this understanding from scriptures ?

If God' s forgiveness is dependent on our first having asked for it (through repentance), how can we be forgiven of a sin if we are rendered unable to repent of it? Can a who cheats on his wife every Saturday night and then asks for her forgiveness Sunday morning really be considered repentant?

I'm not sure what you mean by being rendered unable to repent can you show me the scriptures that imply this ? I agree repeated sin doesn't indicate repentance and I also suggest a Chistian will be unable to continue in unrepentant sin without Yahweh's discipline. This discipline can at times may even lead to sickness and death as per 1 Cor 11 and we know Ananias' and Sapphira's fate because of gross sin during the pivotal founding days of the Church.

Can I ask how many unrepented sins do you consider the point when Yahweh will give up on one of His Children ?

 

[Phoneman777]

Can you show me how you come to this understanding from scriptures ? I'm not sure what you mean by being rendered unable to repent can you show me the scriptures that imply this ?

Can I ask how many unrepented sins do you consider the point when Yahweh will give up on one of His Children ?

The Bible speaks of a "point of no return" for those who depart from being in Christ to a course of deliberate sin in Hebrews 6:4-6, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 1 Timothy 4:1,2 and other places, and since God never withholds forgiveness from the truly repentant sinner, the problem lies with us.

It is either that we refuse to repent or we have lost the ability to repent. The reason why I believe it is the latter is b/c Paul says they "sear their conscience" and "quench the Spirit". These have to do with the ability to sense things. The conscience is the means by which God speaks to us in His attempt to lead us to repentance. Thirst is the means by which we sense our need for water and the quenching of it removes the sense of our need of it (albeit temporarily). In the same way, the quenching of the Spirit leaves us unable to sense our need for Him and the repentance to which He attempts to lead us. "For My Spirit shall not always strive with man." That is why it is so dangerous for those who are in Christ to have anything to do with known sin.

It's not the number of sins that God tallies before withdrawing Himself from us, it is the one sin that we, through persistent refusal to surrender it to Jesus, that causes us to lose our ability to repent of it and the subsequent grieving away of the Holy Spirit, Who at that point can do nothing more for us. If Christians, MYSELF INCLUDED, would remember that, then we would truly "love God and eschew evil" as did Job.

 

[agua]

The Bible speaks of a "point of no return" for those who depart from being in Christ to a course of deliberate sin in Hebrews 6:4-6, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 1 Timothy 4:1,2 and other places, and since God never withholds forgiveness from the truly repentant sinner, the problem lies with us.

It is either that we refuse to repent or we have lost the ability to repent. The reason why I believe it is the latter is b/c Paul says they "sear their conscience" and "quench the Spirit". These have to do with the ability to sense things. The conscience is the means by which God speaks to us in His attempt to lead us to repentance. Thirst is the means by which we sense our need for water and the quenching of it removes the sense of our need of it (albeit temporarily). In the same way, the quenching of the Spirit leaves us unable to sense our need for Him and the repentance to which He attempts to lead us. "For My Spirit shall not always strive with man." That is why it is so dangerous for those who are in Christ to have anything to do with known sin.

It's not the number of sins that God tallies before withdrawing Himself from us, it is the one sin that we, through persistent refusal to surrender it to Jesus, that causes us to lose our ability to repent of it and the subsequent grieving away of the Holy Spirit, Who at that point can do nothing more for us. If Christians, MYSELF INCLUDED, would remember that, then we would truly "love God and eschew evil" as did Job.

Ah ok I see I get you now thanks. We have a different understanding of the processes and battles a Christian goes through during our walk towards the resurrection.

 

[Phoneman777]

Ah ok I see I get you now thanks. We have a different understanding of the processes and battles a Christian goes through during our walk towards the resurrection.

Please don't get me wrong, I don't believe perfection is required, but a willingness to be made perfect. Anytime we come to the place where we say, "This far and no further, Lord", our will ceases to be on the side of Him and I don't see how anything less than full repentance can restore us in a saving relationship with Him.

 

[agua]

Please don't get me wrong, I don't believe perfection is required, but a willingness to be made perfect. Anytime we come to the place where we say, "This far and no further, Lord", our will ceases to be on the side of Him and I don't see how anything less than full repentance can restore us in a saving relationship with Him.

Can you point me out a Believer in the Bible who did this and the result ?

 

[Major]

The Bible says "I am the Lord, I change not". Yes, God could have saved Jesus from death, but that would demand that the penalty of sin remain for you and I to pay, which is what the entire Plan of Salvation was meant to spare us from. Also, if God could have changed the rules in the middle of the game regarding our guilt of sin, but leave the rules unchanged regarding Satan and his billions of angels, how unfair and unjust would that be a thing before the eyes of all the universe? Why should Satan remain condemned for the same thing that God would choose to excuse in us?

Yes sir! Stick with it bro, you are the man!

 

[Major]

Our Heavenly Father does not sit and wait to zap us as soon as we step out from under His authority, a doctrine brought to you by our good friends in the Roman Catholic Church of apostasy. "He hath not dealt with us after our sins." To the contrary, it is when we are outside the umbrella of salvation that He is most earnest and desperate to convince us to return before it's too late. It is our decision to remain lost that results in that very thing b/c persistent rebellion will "sear our conscience", "quench the Spirit", and render it "impossible to renew them again to repentance seeing they crucify the Son of God afresh". In other words, our persistence results in the tragic inability for us to repent of that which we allow ourselves to become ensnared.

The Unpardonable Sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is not any particular sin, but the act of denying the Holy Spirit His divinely appointed work of convicting us of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment, all of which is intended to deliver us from sin. If God' s forgiveness is dependent on our first having asked for it (through repentance), how can we be forgiven of a sin if we are rendered unable to repent of it? Can a who cheats on his wife every Saturday night and then asks for her forgiveness Sunday morning really be considered repentant?

Would you say that a person who sincerely and genually repents of a sin......will not do that particular sin again?

 

[Major]

The Bible speaks of a "point of no return" for those who depart from being in Christ to a course of deliberate sin in Hebrews 6:4-6, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 1 Timothy 4:1,2 and other places, and since God never withholds forgiveness from the truly repentant sinner, the problem lies with us.

It is either that we refuse to repent or we have lost the ability to repent. The reason why I believe it is the latter is b/c Paul says they "sear their conscience" and "quench the Spirit". These have to do with the ability to sense things. The conscience is the means by which God speaks to us in His attempt to lead us to repentance. Thirst is the means by which we sense our need for water and the quenching of it removes the sense of our need of it (albeit temporarily). In the same way, the quenching of the Spirit leaves us unable to sense our need for Him and the repentance to which He attempts to lead us. "For My Spirit shall not always strive with man." That is why it is so dangerous for those who are in Christ to have anything to do with known sin.

It's not the number of sins that God tallies before withdrawing Himself from us, it is the one sin that we, through persistent refusal to surrender it to Jesus, that causes us to lose our ability to repent of it and the subsequent grieving away of the Holy Spirit, Who at that point can do nothing more for us. If Christians, MYSELF INCLUDED, would remember that, then we would truly "love God and eschew evil" as did Job.

Would you say that the phrase : "God gave them up" in Romans 1 would come into view for you and your thinking on this?

 

[JohnC]

Would you say that a person who sincerely and genuinely repents of a sin......will not do that particular sin again?

Absolutely, they will fall straight back into it... That's part of the trouble of being a "Slave" to sin... Literally - the sinful nature rules over us....

It doesn't matter how sincere and genuine we are.... We have no power in and of ourselves to conquer our own sinful nature.

Believing in Christ does not automatically eliminate the sinful nature.... What happens is that sin no longer has the AUTHORITY to rule over you.... But... Just because sin no longer has authority to rule does not mean that it does not SUCCEED in continuing to rule.... Our willful nature does not give up easily!

The ONLY way is to beg God to give you His repentance! To lean hard on God's sovereign power and will.... Then, through God's power - you can begin to overcome your willful nature....

But... I also am of the opinion - that much like the travails of Israel in the book of Joshua... that it's going to be a continuous, uphill battle... and part of the challenge is to not become comfortable and complacent with "Forward progress"....

Thanks

 

[Major]

Absolutely, they will fall straight back into it... That's part of the trouble of being a "Slave" to sin... Literally - the sinful nature rules over us....

It doesn't matter how sincere and genuine we are.... We have no power in and of ourselves to conquer our own sinful nature.

Believing in Christ does not automatically eliminate the sinful nature.... What happens is that sin no longer has the AUTHORITY to rule over you.... But... Just because sin no longer has authority to rule does not mean that it does not SUCCEED in continuing to rule.... Our willful nature does not give up easily!

The ONLY way is to beg God to give you His repentance! To lean hard on God's sovereign power and will.... Then, through God's power - you can begin to overcome your willful nature....

But... I also am of the opinion - that much like the travails of Israel in the book of Joshua... that it's going to be a continuous, uphill battle... and part of the challenge is to not become comfortable and complacent with "Forward progress"....

Thanks

Always a pleasure!

 

[JohnC]

It's not the number of sins that God tallies before withdrawing Himself from us, it is the one sin that we, through persistent refusal to surrender it to Jesus, that causes us to lose our ability to repent of it and the subsequent grieving away of the Holy Spirit, Who at that point can do nothing more for us. If Christians, MYSELF INCLUDED, would remember that, then we would truly "love God and eschew evil" as did Job.

The more I consider and think about it... The more I come to the conclusion that it's not "Sins"... Aka a list of Moral/Immoral things.... but rather it is SIN - singular..... The list is simply the "Fruit" that is born from setting your will against God's will.

and that SIN is setting your will against God's will.... It's a right now thing..... It's a heart thing... Are you willing to Hear and Do God's commands or not?

See... The more I think about it... The more it worries me that we focus on the Laundry List of works judged to be righteous or unrighteous..... and that's not what God is after.... God is after Hear and Do....

God wants people to be Obedient to Him WHEN He asks us to do something.... Love makes us want to comply with this... Our willful nature makes us want to fight it.... But... You can't be Obedient to God in the here and now when you define Obedience by the amount of Moral Rules you follow or fail to follow... What happens is that you mistake "Morality" for "Godliness" - and you don't Hear GOD prodding you to serve.....

Look at Saul and David....
Saul had the singular ability to continually set his will against God's will in almost every situation he touched.... From something seemingly simple... Don't sacrifice till Samuel gets back... to something fairly important - Kill King Agag.... it was always throw God's will to the side...

David on the other hand set his heart towards God's will... David messed up a bunch in the morals department - but the key is that he set his heart towards following God's will....

 

[Spiritfilled]

The Bible says "I am the Lord, I change not". Yes, God could have saved Jesus from death, but that would demand that the penalty of sin remain for you and I to pay, which is what the entire Plan of Salvation was meant to spare us from. Also, if God could have changed the rules in the middle of the game regarding our guilt of sin, but leave the rules unchanged regarding Satan and his billions of angels, how unfair and unjust would that be a thing before the eyes of all the universe? Why should Satan remain condemned for the same thing that God would choose to excuse in us?

The short answer: Romans 9:18

The long answer:

Romans 9:18

New International Version

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden

 

[Phoneman777]

Would you say that a person who sincerely and genually repents of a sin......will not do that particular sin again?

Not at all. I'll admit that I've been guilty to that very thing. One thing's for sure, though - the terrible guilt that follows is almost as powerful a motivation to resist Satan the next time as is the forgiveness that Jesus freely offers to me or any other who truly repents and desires victory. However, the solemn warning of Psalm 95:7,8 remains for all believers:

"There is a line unseen by us,
that crosses every path,
the hidden boundary between,
God's patience and His wrath.

Oh, where is this mysterious bourn
By which our path is crossed;
Beyond which God himself hath sworn,
That he who goes is lost.

How far may we go on in sin?
How long will God forbear?
Where does hope end, and where begin
The confines of despair?

An answer from the skies is sent,
“Ye that from God depart,
While it is called today, repent,
And harden not your heart.”

-Joseph Addison Alexander

 

[Phoneman777]

Would you say that the phrase : "God gave them up" in Romans 1 would come into view for you and your thinking on this?

Yes, b/c when the truth that the Holy Spirit desires to guide us into is rejected, a lie naturally fills the vacuum.

 

[Phoneman777]

The more I consider and think about it... The more I come to the conclusion that it's not "Sins"... Aka a list of Moral/Immoral things.... but rather it is SIN - singular..... The list is simply the "Fruit" that is born from setting your will against God's will.

and that SIN is setting your will against God's will.... It's a right now thing..... It's a heart thing... Are you willing to Hear and Do God's commands or not?

See... The more I think about it... The more it worries me that we focus on the Laundry List of works judged to be righteous or unrighteous..... and that's not what God is after.... God is after Hear and Do....

God wants people to be Obedient to Him WHEN He asks us to do something.... Love makes us want to comply with this... Our willful nature makes us want to fight it.... But... You can't be Obedient to God in the here and now when you define Obedience by the amount of Moral Rules you follow or fail to follow... What happens is that you mistake "Morality" for "Godliness" - and you don't Hear GOD prodding you to serve.....

Look at Saul and David....
Saul had the singular ability to continually set his will against God's will in almost every situation he touched.... From something seemingly simple... Don't sacrifice till Samuel gets back... to something fairly important - Kill King Agag.... it was always throw God's will to the side...

David on the other hand set his heart towards God's will... David messed up a bunch in the morals department - but the key is that he set his heart towards following God's will....

"He set his heart towards following God's will" is a very concise description of repentance.

 

[Major]

Yes, b/c when the truth that the Holy Spirit desires to guide us into is rejected, a lie naturally fills the vacuum.

Agreed!