Is The Holy Spirit Or The Church The Restrainer Of 2 Thess.?

You're making assumptions.

Here are the verses to prove it:

Daniel 9:26-27 (KJV)
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary... NOT Titus, but the antichrist. How do we know? The next sentence: And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. Who is the he in this sentence? The prince that shall come. Titus did not make a covenant with the Jews for a week. Also he didn't make desolate the temple - he wanted to, but his rebellious soldiers burned it. But just for argument's sake, let's say this verse has a double meaning and this prince that shall come is Titus, we have to look at the people of the prince that actually destroyed the temple. They were not the loyal obedient Roman soldiers, but the conscripted Syrian and Alexandrian men - Arabs. If you bother to read the historical accounts of Josephus, Tactics you'll find the utter atrocities they committed against the Jews. "Roman" soldiers would not have done what was done, but the Arabs against the Jews would have, and did.

So if Titus isn't the prince, and it wasn't the abomination of desolation spoken by Jesus in Matt 24:15 then the one who does this is the antichrist yet to happen. Either way, the Catholics will have nothing to do with this event unless the Pope is the false prophet and then it would fit perfectly with the warped eschatology of Islam who will bring forth the antichrist, not Rome.

Some studies on this:
Where does the Antichrist come from? http://abdicate.net/blog/?p=63
Is the Roman Catholic Church involved in the end times? http://abdicate.net/blog/?p=22

Thank you but here is why I believe you are wrong, point by point:
It is clear that there are two princes here depicted - Jesus and either Prince Titus or Futurism's Antichrist, so obviously not all elements of the prophecy will apply to the same prince.

1) No one will deny that Jesus indeed came to confirm an everlasting covenant of salvation by grace through faith for seven years, which He began to confirm by His own spoken words and "then was confirmed to us by them that heard Him," Hebrews 2:3. Daniel neither specifically mentions the Antichrist nor that the covenant's duration would last for seven years, but only that a "prince" would confirm it for seven years, which is exactly what Jesus did. You first confuse the covenant's 7 year period of confirmation with duration, assume that some evil agency will preside over this "confirmation/duration" period, and then assume that since Titus didn't do any such thing, it is not he but a future Antichrist which will do so. We can make the text say anything we want with this level of assumption and subjectivity.

2) The text does say that due to the "overspreading of abominations IT shall be made desolate" meaning the entire city including the temple. The text does not in the least imply that this abomination would be some future temple desecration by ritual sacrifice; that is a purely subjective assumption on the part of Futurists which is then claimed by them to establish Futurism.

3) In 66 AD, the Romans sunk their standards in the ground outside the city walls which God Himself had deemed Holy Ground, and then proceeded to bow down and worship the eagle with outstretched wings atop them, a symbol of their SUN god. Do you know what God told Ezekiel was the most abominable of all the abominations he showed Ezekiel in chapter 8? That's right, SUN worship. This was the abomination that Jesus told them to watch for as a sign of when the time would come for them to flee the destruction of Jerusalem. When the Roman army abruptly retreated to put down a rebellion elsewhere, the Jews rejoiced that God was with them, while the Christians made a hasty exit. Four years later, they returned, committed further abominations outside the walls and eventually destroyed both the city and the temple. Again, there is nothing in the text that demands that "the abomination that makes desolate" should be interpreted as some ritualistic animal sacrifice or that Titus must perform such in order to qualify as the "prince".

4) If conscripted soldiers are not "of the prince that shall come", then of whose authority are they come? You may not realize it but you yourself acknowledged that they were indeed people of prince Titus when you wrote "his (Titus') rebellious soldiers burned it.) Also, this rebellious act on their part serves to not break, but further strengthen the bond that existed between them and Rome by demonstrating the extent of their hatred of the Jews which even exceeded that of the Romans, who wished to act with some degree of restraint.

These are all reasons why the Reformers rejected Jesuit Futurism and how anyone who considers himself to be a Protestant can embrace anything from an organization which was established for the sole purpose of destroying Protestantism is most puzzling.
 
I don't believe the reformers... John Calvin was wrong in his understandings of the scriptures because he thought everything was from the Catholic church and rejected sound doctrine just to be different. I stand by what I've stated. I stand by the word of God, every verse.
 
I don't believe the reformers... John Calvin was wrong in his understandings of the scriptures because he thought everything was from the Catholic church and rejected sound doctrine just to be different. I stand by what I've stated. I stand by the word of God, every verse.
Fair enough. Earlier you stated that the Holy Spirit will lead a person to Futurism and end all questions. What Scriptures did the Holy Spirit point you to which explicitly show that the prince that destroys the city and temple is the same prince that confirms the covenant, and explicitly show that the "abomination that makes desolate" is a profane temple ritual? No assumptions or subjection, please, for "the Lord God will do nothing except He revealeth His secret to His servants the prophets." He wants us to rely on the word of the prophets. not the wisdom of man's assumptions.
 
Fair enough. Earlier you stated that the Holy Spirit will lead a person to Futurism and end all questions. What Scriptures did the Holy Spirit point you to which explicitly show that the prince that destroys the city and temple is the same prince that confirms the covenant, and explicitly show that the "abomination that makes desolate" is a profane temple ritual? No assumptions or subjection, please, for "the Lord God will do nothing except He revealeth His secret to His servants the prophets." He wants us to rely on the word of the prophets. not the wisdom of man's assumptions.
I would take the time to attempt to pursue you but your mind is made up. You'll believe what you want so why should I bother? If you read my book then you'll have your answers.
 
I would take the time to attempt to pursue you but your mind is made up. You'll believe what you want so why should I bother? If you read my book then you'll have your answers.
We're both convinced, so let's find out with whom the Bible agrees. Did you know that Luke 3:1 says Jesus was baptized the last year of the 69 weeks? From Artaxerxes decree in 457 BC to the year Jesus was baptized was exactly 483 years, the very year and only year which saw the simultaneous reign of Pilate, Tiberias Ceasar, and Herod! Jesus confirmed the Covevant and was cut off AFTER the 69th, DURING the 70th which is history, not future. How can you discount such Biblical/Historical evidence?
 
We're both convinced, so let's find out with whom the Bible agrees. Did you know that Luke 3:1 says Jesus was baptized the last year of the 69 weeks? From Artaxerxes decree in 457 BC to the year Jesus was baptized was exactly 483 years, the very year and only year which saw the simultaneous reign of Pilate, Tiberias Ceasar, and Herod! Jesus confirmed the Covevant and was cut off AFTER the 69th, DURING the 70th which is history, not future. How can you discount such Biblical/Historical evidence?
I guess we can, in part... I did this study over 10 years ago... But He wasn't baptized, but died 483 years, 13 days later!

Artaxerxes' order... Daniel's Prophecy - CY 3520

Creation Year: 3520 Western Year: 457 BC At least we agree when it started :D

The order is given to Ezra (Ezra 7:9) to rebuild the city and establish a government (Ezra 7:25) (which is different from that of Cyrus which was to rebuild only the temple), this is the year of the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy and the start of that same prophecy concerning the Messiah, Daniel 9:25-27.

This happened 1 Nisan 3304 (Mar 26, 457 BC) (Ezra 7:9)

Daniel 9:25-27Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Ezra 7:9For upon the first day of the first month began he to go up from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him.

Ezra 7:25And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not.

In 483 years and 13 days, Jesus is "cut off" (Daniel 9:26) in the Jewish date of 14 Nisan 3787 (9 Apr 27AD).

Daniel's Prophecy
Ok, so you're still not convinced, that's fine. Remember, I mentioned that I went through the whole Bible to find any reference to a date. Well that study, completed after this one, gave me another confirmation of Jesus' date of His death. It comes from Daniel:


Daniel 9:25-26 "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."


Ezra is the source to finding this date. In Daniel's 70 weeks of 7 years (490 years), the Messiah would die 69 weeks of 7 years or 483 years later, that is clearly in scripture, as you can see. The understanding of when this series of years starts is "... going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem..." When did this occur? Well let's start with when the first Jews from Babylon returned to Israel to "rebuild the temple". Cyrus gave a decree for the Jews to return to Jerusalem to rebuild their temple. Josephus says that Cyrus read the book of Isaiah and saw that he was mentioned as the chosen one to rebuild God's house.


Isaiah 44:28 “That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.”


Cyrus was so moved that he made the decree in 538 B.C. [year 3223 in Jewish calendar], which was his first year of reign as King of Babylon.


Ezra 1:1 “Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,”


He was already King of Persia from 559 B.C. Ezra and Nehemiah counted the people, which came to 42,360 Jews, 7337 servants, and 245 singers, totaling 49,942 souls left Babylon


Ezra 2:64-65 “The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore, Beside their servants and their maids, of whom there were seven thousand three hundred thirty and seven: and there were among them two hundred singing men and singing women.”


Nehemiah 7:66-67 “The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore, Beside their manservants and their maidservants, of whom there were seven thousand three hundred thirty and seven: and they had two hundred forty and five singing men and singing women.”


Very few considering the number that went into captivity. So with the decree they went back to Jerusalem to start building the House of God - not the city, so this decree isn't the one from Daniel.


Ezra 1:3 “Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.”


The adversaries of Benjamin and Judah hindered the Jews until the second year of the reign of Darius I, 519 B.C. At this time all work ceased, Ezra 4:24 . By the leadership of Haggai and Zechariah, the work resumed and the rulers of the area wrote letters to King Darius to make them stop and to verify their claim to build the House of God by Cyrus' decree. Well it was found to be true and Darius made a decree not to hinder the work, Ezra 6:1-12. Again, this decree is for the House of God alone, so this too isn't the decree of Daniel prophecy. Finally, the temple was completed in the sixth year of Darius (515 B.C. [3246]) on the third day of the twelfth month, and in the following month they kept the Passover. Ezra 6:15 , Ezra 6:19 .


Ezra 4:24 “Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia.”


Ezra 6:1-12 “Then Darius the king made a decree, and search was made in the house of the rolls, where the treasures were laid up in Babylon. And there was found at Achmetha, in the palace that is in the province of the Medes, a roll, and therein was a record thus written: In the first year of Cyrus the king the same Cyrus the king made a decree concerning the house of God at Jerusalem, Let the house be builded, the place where they offered sacrifices, and let the foundations thereof be strongly laid; the height thereof threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof threescore cubits; With three rows of great stones, and a row of new timber: and let the expences be given out of the king's house: And also let the golden and silver vessels of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took forth out of the temple which is at Jerusalem, and brought unto Babylon, be restored, and brought again unto the temple which is at Jerusalem, every one to his place, and place them in the house of God. Now therefore, Tatnai, governor beyond the river, Shetharboznai, and your companions the Apharsachites, which are beyond the river, be ye far from thence: Let the work of this house of God alone; let the governor of the Jews and the elders of the Jews build this house of God in his place. Moreover I make a decree what ye shall do to the elders of these Jews for the building of this house of God: that of the king's goods, even of the tribute beyond the river, forthwith expences be given unto these men, that they be not hindered. And that which they have need of, both young bullocks, and rams, and lambs, for the burnt offerings of the God of heaven, wheat, salt, wine, and oil, according to the appointment of the priests which are at Jerusalem, let it be given them day by day without fail: That they may offer sacrifices of sweet savours unto the God of heaven, and pray for the life of the king, and of his sons. Also I have made a decree, that whosoever shall alter this word, let timber be pulled down from his house, and being set up, let him be hanged thereon; and let his house be made a dunghill for this. And the God that hath caused his name to dwell there destroy all kings and people, that shall put to their hand to alter and to destroy this house of God which is at Jerusalem. I Darius have made a decree; let it be done with speed.”


Ezra 6:15 “And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.”


Ezra 6:19 “And the children of the captivity kept the passover upon the fourteenth day of the first month.”


King Artaxerxes, in the seventh year of his reign (457 B.C.), authorized Ezra the priest and scribe, and all who wished to join him, to go to Jerusalem. It was Ezra's desire to instruct the Jews in the laws of God. Artaxerxes granted him large amounts of silver and gold to furnish the temple, and gave instruction that his treasurers on that side of the river should provide whatever was needed to beautify the Lord's house. In the decree, Artaxerxes commanded Ezra to "set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not. And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment." Ezra 7:25-26. Ezra left on 1 Nisan 3304 (26 March 457 B.C.) to go to Jerusalem. This is the decree of Daniel's prophecy. Why? Because the next decree for Nehemiah is also to rebuild Jerusalem, but Ezra was told to set up the city and the government. The letter of Ezra's decree was not preserved, but we can see by the rulers of the area complained again and the work was stopped, Ezra 4:17-22.

Ezra 4:17-22 “Then sent the king an answer unto Rehum the chancellor, and to Shimshai the scribe, and to the rest of their companions that dwell in Samaria, and unto the rest beyond the river, Peace, and at such a time. The letter which ye sent unto us hath been plainly read before me. And I commanded, and search hath been made, and it is found that this city of old time hath made insurrection against kings, and that rebellion and sedition have been made therein. There have been mighty kings also over Jerusalem, which have ruled over all countries beyond the river; and toll, tribute, and custom, was paid unto them. Give ye now commandment to cause these men to cease, and that this city be not builded, until another commandment shall be given from me. Take heed now that ye fail not to do this: why should damage grow to the hurt of the kings?”


Nehemiah's story begins in the 20th year of Artaxerxes' reign. Nehemiah was praying that the Lord would give Nehemiah favor in the King's eyes so that Jerusalem would be restored. God granted his desire and Artaxerxes gave Nehemiah leave to go and build Jerusalem. Although the text wording would make this decree the decree of Daniel, this one really was just a reaffirmation of the one given to Ezra, which we do not have the wording to, but we know it was to not only beautify the Temple, but to build the city. This was clearly understood to be an authorization for the full reestablishment of Jerusalem and the Jewish nation. Shortly after this the enemies of the Jews wrote to the king complaining that "the Jews which came up from thee to us are come unto Jerusalem, building the rebellious and the bad city, and have set up the walls thereof, and joined the foundations", Ezra 4:12. That the walls had been completely set up was obviously an exaggeration, as verse 13 reveals. Yet this incident shows that for the first time there was actual work being done to rebuild the city. This had not been the case under the previous decrees.

King's years

Something that must be understood in understanding a statement like "in the seventh year of his reign" is that to the Jews, the first year of a king's rule isn't the completion of 12 months, but in the completion of the first calendar year. That is, if a non-Jewish king took office in April, the completion of his first year wouldn't be until 20 months later. This is why, if you decide, and you should, to verify my dates with encyclopedias and history books, you'll find that some say that Artaxerxes' reign started in 465 B.C. and others will say 464 B.C. - it depends on how the "year" was counted. Accordingly, the first year of Artaxerxes' reign is both 465 B.C. AND 464 B.C. as his accession year. That means that some books are counting from the calendar year (from April to April in our example, 12 months) and others count as the Jews and Babylonian's did (from April to the second December – 20 months).

From our decree time of 1 Nisan 3304 + 483 years = 3787, exactly 483 years, 13 days later, Jesus died on the cross for His people.

Daniel 9:26 , "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off..." When you look at all the precedence and the facts, it is so awesome to make such a discovery like this. I am so very grateful to the Lord for this. All glory and honor are His!!!!

Either way, there's still an appointed week to be had, whether it's part of the 69th or the 71st, it's still going to happen. The antichrist will confirm a week of 7 years with the Jews, then that day the Two Witnesses will arrive and preach for 1260 days. At the completion they will be killed by the AC and lie dead for 3.5 days. After that they will be raptured to heaven. The day they die to the return of Jesus to start His 1000-year reign on earth will be exactly 1260 days (the time Israel is to flee to Jordan). 1260 + 1260 = 2520 (or two sets of 42 months, or 7 years). Time, Times and Half a time twice...
 
I guess we can, in part... I did this study over 10 years ago... But He wasn't baptized, but died 483 years, 13 days later!

Artaxerxes' order... Daniel's Prophecy - CY 3520

Creation Year: 3520 Western Year: 457 BC At least we agree when it started :D

The order is given to Ezra (Ezra 7:9) to rebuild the city and establish a government (Ezra 7:25) (which is different from that of Cyrus which was to rebuild only the temple), this is the year of the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy and the start of that same prophecy concerning the Messiah, Daniel 9:25-27.

This happened 1 Nisan 3304 (Mar 26, 457 BC) (Ezra 7:9)

Daniel 9:25-27Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Ezra 7:9For upon the first day of the first month began he to go up from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him.

Ezra 7:25And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not.

In 483 years and 13 days, Jesus is "cut off" (Daniel 9:26) in the Jewish date of 14 Nisan 3787 (9 Apr 27AD).

Daniel's Prophecy
Ok, so you're still not convinced, that's fine. Remember, I mentioned that I went through the whole Bible to find any reference to a date. Well that study, completed after this one, gave me another confirmation of Jesus' date of His death. It comes from Daniel:


Daniel 9:25-26 "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."


Ezra is the source to finding this date. In Daniel's 70 weeks of 7 years (490 years), the Messiah would die 69 weeks of 7 years or 483 years later, that is clearly in scripture, as you can see. The understanding of when this series of years starts is "... going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem..." When did this occur? Well let's start with when the first Jews from Babylon returned to Israel to "rebuild the temple". Cyrus gave a decree for the Jews to return to Jerusalem to rebuild their temple. Josephus says that Cyrus read the book of Isaiah and saw that he was mentioned as the chosen one to rebuild God's house.


Isaiah 44:28 “That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.”


Cyrus was so moved that he made the decree in 538 B.C. [year 3223 in Jewish calendar], which was his first year of reign as King of Babylon.


Ezra 1:1 “Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,”


He was already King of Persia from 559 B.C. Ezra and Nehemiah counted the people, which came to 42,360 Jews, 7337 servants, and 245 singers, totaling 49,942 souls left Babylon


Ezra 2:64-65 “The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore, Beside their servants and their maids, of whom there were seven thousand three hundred thirty and seven: and there were among them two hundred singing men and singing women.”


Nehemiah 7:66-67 “The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore, Beside their manservants and their maidservants, of whom there were seven thousand three hundred thirty and seven: and they had two hundred forty and five singing men and singing women.”


Very few considering the number that went into captivity. So with the decree they went back to Jerusalem to start building the House of God - not the city, so this decree isn't the one from Daniel.


Ezra 1:3 “Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.”


The adversaries of Benjamin and Judah hindered the Jews until the second year of the reign of Darius I, 519 B.C. At this time all work ceased, Ezra 4:24 . By the leadership of Haggai and Zechariah, the work resumed and the rulers of the area wrote letters to King Darius to make them stop and to verify their claim to build the House of God by Cyrus' decree. Well it was found to be true and Darius made a decree not to hinder the work, Ezra 6:1-12. Again, this decree is for the House of God alone, so this too isn't the decree of Daniel prophecy. Finally, the temple was completed in the sixth year of Darius (515 B.C. [3246]) on the third day of the twelfth month, and in the following month they kept the Passover. Ezra 6:15 , Ezra 6:19 .


Ezra 4:24 “Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia.”


Ezra 6:1-12 “Then Darius the king made a decree, and search was made in the house of the rolls, where the treasures were laid up in Babylon. And there was found at Achmetha, in the palace that is in the province of the Medes, a roll, and therein was a record thus written: In the first year of Cyrus the king the same Cyrus the king made a decree concerning the house of God at Jerusalem, Let the house be builded, the place where they offered sacrifices, and let the foundations thereof be strongly laid; the height thereof threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof threescore cubits; With three rows of great stones, and a row of new timber: and let the expences be given out of the king's house: And also let the golden and silver vessels of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took forth out of the temple which is at Jerusalem, and brought unto Babylon, be restored, and brought again unto the temple which is at Jerusalem, every one to his place, and place them in the house of God. Now therefore, Tatnai, governor beyond the river, Shetharboznai, and your companions the Apharsachites, which are beyond the river, be ye far from thence: Let the work of this house of God alone; let the governor of the Jews and the elders of the Jews build this house of God in his place. Moreover I make a decree what ye shall do to the elders of these Jews for the building of this house of God: that of the king's goods, even of the tribute beyond the river, forthwith expences be given unto these men, that they be not hindered. And that which they have need of, both young bullocks, and rams, and lambs, for the burnt offerings of the God of heaven, wheat, salt, wine, and oil, according to the appointment of the priests which are at Jerusalem, let it be given them day by day without fail: That they may offer sacrifices of sweet savours unto the God of heaven, and pray for the life of the king, and of his sons. Also I have made a decree, that whosoever shall alter this word, let timber be pulled down from his house, and being set up, let him be hanged thereon; and let his house be made a dunghill for this. And the God that hath caused his name to dwell there destroy all kings and people, that shall put to their hand to alter and to destroy this house of God which is at Jerusalem. I Darius have made a decree; let it be done with speed.”


Ezra 6:15 “And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.”


Ezra 6:19 “And the children of the captivity kept the passover upon the fourteenth day of the first month.”


King Artaxerxes, in the seventh year of his reign (457 B.C.), authorized Ezra the priest and scribe, and all who wished to join him, to go to Jerusalem. It was Ezra's desire to instruct the Jews in the laws of God. Artaxerxes granted him large amounts of silver and gold to furnish the temple, and gave instruction that his treasurers on that side of the river should provide whatever was needed to beautify the Lord's house. In the decree, Artaxerxes commanded Ezra to "set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not. And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment." Ezra 7:25-26. Ezra left on 1 Nisan 3304 (26 March 457 B.C.) to go to Jerusalem. This is the decree of Daniel's prophecy. Why? Because the next decree for Nehemiah is also to rebuild Jerusalem, but Ezra was told to set up the city and the government. The letter of Ezra's decree was not preserved, but we can see by the rulers of the area complained again and the work was stopped, Ezra 4:17-22.

Ezra 4:17-22 “Then sent the king an answer unto Rehum the chancellor, and to Shimshai the scribe, and to the rest of their companions that dwell in Samaria, and unto the rest beyond the river, Peace, and at such a time. The letter which ye sent unto us hath been plainly read before me. And I commanded, and search hath been made, and it is found that this city of old time hath made insurrection against kings, and that rebellion and sedition have been made therein. There have been mighty kings also over Jerusalem, which have ruled over all countries beyond the river; and toll, tribute, and custom, was paid unto them. Give ye now commandment to cause these men to cease, and that this city be not builded, until another commandment shall be given from me. Take heed now that ye fail not to do this: why should damage grow to the hurt of the kings?”


Nehemiah's story begins in the 20th year of Artaxerxes' reign. Nehemiah was praying that the Lord would give Nehemiah favor in the King's eyes so that Jerusalem would be restored. God granted his desire and Artaxerxes gave Nehemiah leave to go and build Jerusalem. Although the text wording would make this decree the decree of Daniel, this one really was just a reaffirmation of the one given to Ezra, which we do not have the wording to, but we know it was to not only beautify the Temple, but to build the city. This was clearly understood to be an authorization for the full reestablishment of Jerusalem and the Jewish nation. Shortly after this the enemies of the Jews wrote to the king complaining that "the Jews which came up from thee to us are come unto Jerusalem, building the rebellious and the bad city, and have set up the walls thereof, and joined the foundations", Ezra 4:12. That the walls had been completely set up was obviously an exaggeration, as verse 13 reveals. Yet this incident shows that for the first time there was actual work being done to rebuild the city. This had not been the case under the previous decrees.

King's years

Something that must be understood in understanding a statement like "in the seventh year of his reign" is that to the Jews, the first year of a king's rule isn't the completion of 12 months, but in the completion of the first calendar year. That is, if a non-Jewish king took office in April, the completion of his first year wouldn't be until 20 months later. This is why, if you decide, and you should, to verify my dates with encyclopedias and history books, you'll find that some say that Artaxerxes' reign started in 465 B.C. and others will say 464 B.C. - it depends on how the "year" was counted. Accordingly, the first year of Artaxerxes' reign is both 465 B.C. AND 464 B.C. as his accession year. That means that some books are counting from the calendar year (from April to April in our example, 12 months) and others count as the Jews and Babylonian's did (from April to the second December – 20 months).

From our decree time of 1 Nisan 3304 + 483 years = 3787, exactly 483 years, 13 days later, Jesus died on the cross for His people.

Daniel 9:26 , "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off..." When you look at all the precedence and the facts, it is so awesome to make such a discovery like this. I am so very grateful to the Lord for this. All glory and honor are His!!!!

Either way, there's still an appointed week to be had, whether it's part of the 69th or the 71st, it's still going to happen. The antichrist will confirm a week of 7 years with the Jews, then that day the Two Witnesses will arrive and preach for 1260 days. At the completion they will be killed by the AC and lie dead for 3.5 days. After that they will be raptured to heaven. The day they die to the return of Jesus to start His 1000-year reign on earth will be exactly 1260 days (the time Israel is to flee to Jordan). 1260 + 1260 = 2520 (or two sets of 42 months, or 7 years). Time, Times and Half a time twice...

Great, we agree that the decree spoken of in Daniel is that of Artaxerxes, which was 457 B.C.
Now, if we set aside your last paragraph for a moment and simply calculate 69 weeks (483 years) from that decree in 457 B.C., it takes us to 27 A.D., which history records as the very year and only year that Herod, Pilate, and Tiberius Caesar simultaneously reigned. Luke specifically says it was this year of the simultaneous reign of these three rulers (Luke 3:1) that John the Baptist came baptizing the people including Jesus (Luke 3:3,21) and the year the 69 weeks came to an end. Jesus still had 3 1/2 years of ministry to perform after His baptism which marked the end of the 69 weeks, so His ministry could have only taken place during the 70th week, which came immediately after the completion of the 69 weeks. It is for these reasons that it is believed that Messiah the prince came at the end of the 69 weeks, confirmed the covenant during the 70th for 3 1/2 years in Person and then the remaining time through His disciples after He was cut off in the midst of it, and caused the sacrifice and oblations to cease in the midst of it by rendering all such from the time of His death onward as meaningless before the eyes of God.
 
Great, we agree that the decree spoken of in Daniel is that of Artaxerxes, which was 457 B.C.
Now, if we set aside your last paragraph for a moment and simply calculate 69 weeks (483 years) from that decree in 457 B.C., it takes us to 27 A.D., which history records as the very year and only year that Herod, Pilate, and Tiberius Caesar simultaneously reigned. Luke specifically says it was this year of the simultaneous reign of these three rulers (Luke 3:1) that John the Baptist came baptizing the people including Jesus (Luke 3:3,21) and the year the 69 weeks came to an end. Jesus still had 3 1/2 years of ministry to perform after His baptism which marked the end of the 69 weeks, so His ministry could have only taken place during the 70th week, which came immediately after the completion of the 69 weeks. It is for these reasons that it is believed that Messiah the prince came at the end of the 69 weeks, confirmed the covenant during the 70th for 3 1/2 years in Person and then the remaining time through His disciples after He was cut off in the midst of it, and caused the sacrifice and oblations to cease in the midst of it by rendering all such from the time of His death onward as meaningless before the eyes of God.
Sorry... 483 years was to His death, not baptism... that's what the prophecy is about, Him dying. 27AD is when Jesus died. The last paragraph was the bridge between us and I guess that's blown up now... it doesn't matter to ME nor should it YOU if the week Jesus died was the 70th or 103rd, but you either accept that there is yet a week to be fulfilled or not, connected to the 69 or not, it really does NOT matter. If you do not believe that there is a period of 7 years to be fulfilled, that makes you a preterist which I've already addressed and I shan't continue.
 
Sorry... 483 years was to His death, not baptism... that's what the prophecy is about, Him dying. 27AD is when Jesus died. The last paragraph was the bridge between us and I guess that's blown up now... it doesn't matter to ME nor should it YOU if the week Jesus died was the 70th or 103rd, but you either accept that there is yet a week to be fulfilled or not, connected to the 69 or not, it really does NOT matter. If you do not believe that there is a period of 7 years to be fulfilled, that makes you a preterist which I've already addressed and I shan't continue.
I thought for sure that you'd see that 27 AD was the year of His baptism, seeing that there is much evidence to suggest that Tiberius' 15th year was indeed 27 AD. If not, we'll agree to disagree, but I must say that Jesuit Preterism claims Antichrist came in the first century, an idea which we both reject. I believe in Historicism which, in like manner of the ECF, says that the Restrainer was the Roman Empire and that upon the fall of it in the 6th century, Antichrist arose from within the church in Rome as the Papal power, the union of church and state.
 
I thought for sure that you'd see that 27 AD was the year of His baptism, seeing that there is much evidence to suggest that Tiberius' 15th year was indeed 27 AD. If not, we'll agree to disagree, but I must say that Jesuit Preterism claims Antichrist came in the first century, an idea which we both reject. I believe in Historicism which, in like manner of the ECF, says that the Restrainer was the Roman Empire and that upon the fall of it in the 6th century, Antichrist arose from within the church in Rome as the Papal power, the union of church and state.
Yea, we're going to agree to disagree...
 
I don't believe the reformers... John Calvin was wrong in his understandings of the scriptures because he thought everything was from the Catholic church and rejected sound doctrine just to be different. I stand by what I've stated. I stand by the word of God, every verse.

Amen!
 
I don't believe the reformers... John Calvin was wrong in his understandings of the scriptures because he thought everything was from the Catholic church and rejected sound doctrine just to be different. I stand by what I've stated. I stand by the word of God, every verse.
I'll admit that some of the thinking of the Reformers may have been flawed, but please consider that the author of Jesuit Futurism, Francisco Ribera, believed that the Pope "is God on Earth"; "is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of human flesh"; "holds upon this Earth the place of God Almighty"; "has the power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ"; "is King of heaven, of Earth, and of Purgatory", just to name a few. He also believed that if the Pope and the Holy Scriptures were to contradict one another, "the Holy Scriptures must be thrown aside." He believed in the Transubstantiation and sanctioned the penalty of death to those who denied it (which was the most common reason for the 75 -150 million executions ordered by the church); that forgiveness is imparted not by Christ, but by the Church; that no one can ever be saved unless they fully submit to the supreme authority of the Pope and participate in Confession and the Sacraments. One cannot hope that such a mind so filled with active, compounded delusion could have ever simultaneously achieved spiritual enlightenment. Nevertheless, as it is said, "only time will tell."
 
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I'll admit that some of the thinking of the Reformers may have been flawed, but please consider that the author of Jesuit Futurism, Francisco Ribera, believed that the Pope "is God on Earth"; "is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of human flesh"; "holds upon this Earth the place of God Almighty"; "has the power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ"; "is King of heaven, of Earth, and of Purgatory", just to name a few. He also believed that if the Pope and the Holy Scriptures were to contradict one another, "the Holy Scriptures must be thrown aside." He believed in the Transubstantiation and sanctioned the penalty of death to those who denied it (which was the most common reason for the 75 -150 million executions ordered by the church); that forgiveness is imparted not by Christ, but by the Church; that no one can ever be saved unless they fully submit to the supreme authority of the Pope and participate in Confession and the Sacraments. One cannot hope that such a mind so filled with active, compounded delusion could have ever simultaneously achieved spiritual enlightenment. Nevertheless, as it is said, "only time will tell."

It seems to me that you have a problem with the RCC more than you do with people here who debate with you over Bible exergesis.
That is just an opinion, nothing more, and in fact in many of the ways which you have stated I agree with you.
 
Sorry... 483 years was to His death, not baptism... that's what the prophecy is about, Him dying. 27AD is when Jesus died. The last paragraph was the bridge between us and I guess that's blown up now... it doesn't matter to ME nor should it YOU if the week Jesus died was the 70th or 103rd, but you either accept that there is yet a week to be fulfilled or not, connected to the 69 or not, it really does NOT matter. If you do not believe that there is a period of 7 years to be fulfilled, that makes you a preterist which I've already addressed and I shan't continue.
We know is that Jesus was baptized in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar (Luke 3:1). We also know historically that the earliest date possible for that 15th year is 25/26 AD. Please forgive me for asking for this clarification, but I would very much like to know how it is that you conclude that 27 AD is the year of Jesus' death when such a conclusion leaves no room for His full 3 1/2 year ministry to take place between His baptism and death? This is a critical question for if 27 AD is not the year of His death, but the year of His baptism, then the 70th week is firmly established as having been nailed down in history and is the death knell of Jesuit Futurism.
 
It seems to me that you have a problem with the RCC more than you do with people here who debate with you over Bible exergesis.
That is just an opinion, nothing more, and in fact in many of the ways which you have stated I agree with you.
My problem is with false teaching alone seeing that we all lack the ability to discern whether sincerity or malice dwells in the heart of those teaching it, however evident one or the other may be. BTW, I was simply pointing out that if other objectionable teachings are to be a basis for a no vote against Historicism, then Futurism should have long since died in committee.
 
My problem is with false teaching alone seeing that we all lack the ability to discern whether sincerity or malice dwells in the heart of those teaching it, however evident one or the other may be. BTW, I was simply pointing out that if other objectionable teachings are to be a basis for a no vote against Historicism, then Futurism should have long since died in committee.

Don't you think that Time has had a lot to do with changing the view?

The Futurists believe that the Historical/Preterist is false and of course the opposite is the case with the Historical view.

Personally....It seems to me that the teaching of Preterism or the Historical view of Escotology destroys the stated plan of God for the times in which we now live by teaching that the Bible’s prophecies have nothing to do with us today. Consequently, Preterism runs counter to God’s expressed intention for endtime revival. Therefore, it should not be believed or taught.
 
We know is that Jesus was baptized in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar (Luke 3:1). We also know historically that the earliest date possible for that 15th year is 25/26 AD. Please forgive me for asking for this clarification, but I would very much like to know how it is that you conclude that 27 AD is the year of Jesus' death when such a conclusion leaves no room for His full 3 1/2 year ministry to take place between His baptism and death? This is a critical question for if 27 AD is not the year of His death, but the year of His baptism, then the 70th week is firmly established as having been nailed down in history and is the death knell of Jesuit Futurism.
He was co-regent as of 9AD...
 
Don't you think that Time has had a lot to do with changing the view?

The Futurists believe that the Historical/Preterist is false and of course the opposite is the case with the Historical view.

Personally....It seems to me that the teaching of Preterism or the Historical view of Escotology destroys the stated plan of God for the times in which we now live by teaching that the Bible’s prophecies have nothing to do with us today. Consequently, Preterism runs counter to God’s expressed intention for endtime revival. Therefore, it should not be believed or taught.
Yes, Preterism demands that a Roman Emperor fulfill all of the Biblical criteria of Antichrist, which is not possible.
 
He was co-regent as of 9AD...
What matters is what Luke considered to be his 15th year reign, and not what even Tiberius or any others consider it to be. Overwhelming historical/Biblical chronological evidence points to the likelihood that Luke used of the Syro-Macedonian calendar, including his use of it in other places where he reckoned time. Such use would place his 15th year/start of John's ministry at about 27 AD, with Jesus' death 3 1/2 years later.
 
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