Is The Holy Spirit Or The Church The Restrainer Of 2 Thess.?
- Thread starter Phoneman777
- Start date
Isn't that the stance of the RCC today as well????
Just recently, in 2004, Bishop Patrick Dunn of Auckland said this:
"It seems that Pope John Paul II now presides over the universal Church from his place upon Christ's cross."
The Gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII says this:
"But to believe that our Lord God the Pope the establisher of said decretal, and of this, could not decree, as he did decree, should be accounted heretical".
Yes, time is the culprit. Futurism was struck a death blow by the Reformation as soon as it was sent out into the world by the RCC in the 16th century and wasn't heard from until its resurrection in the 19th century, as the persecutions by the Roman Church for the past 14 centuries began to wind down and the Protestant Reformation began to lose steam as a result (for there is nothing like ease to make us complacent in our faith). Samuel Maitland, Librarian to the Archbishop of Cantebury, likely discovered an old, dust covered copy of Jesuit Ribera's Futurism writings and began spreading them around England and Europe, which was followed by John Nelson Darby's 6 voyages to America bringing with him the same, but expanded ideas such as the secret rapture, to the now complacent Protestants of the New World. Further dissemination and popularizing of these ideas here in America through Scofield's Reference Bible, Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth, the Left Behind books and movies, and an explosion of Futurism-based end time prophecy media have left Historicism as an all but forgotten foe to what Protestants now consider to be sound Bible doctrine.
Yes, many people have claimed that "Vatican II" of the 1960s altered the RCC's stance on things, but Pope Benedict, who was previously head of The Congregation For Doctrine And Faith (which was previously known as the Office of the Inquisition and even convened in the same ancient building where so many forfeited their lives for their faith) affirmed every single previously held doctrine of the RCC, including all writings that bear the stamp of the Imprimatur which means "absolutely no heresy to be found therein". My aforementioned quotes all come from such RCC sources.
You'd see that Jesus died in 27AD if you bother to take into account everything, not just one piece of the puzzle.
We agree that the phrase "unto Messiah the Prince" is an event that concludes the 69 week segment of prophetic time. How can His death be that conclusion of the 69 week segment of time if it is clearly spoken of as happening after that 69 week segment of time? The conclusion of a thing can only exist as part of the thing which it concludes and not after the thing has expired. There has not been a movie filmed yet where the conclusion of it takes place 5 minutes after the lights go out and everyone has left the theater. Yet, Futurism somehow demands that the conclusion of the 69 weeks is Jesus' death and that it takes place after the 69 weeks concludes.
Even if your assertion was correct, it would STILL prove that the last week began ticking off the clock 13 days prior to His death. How can the 70th week be ripped up and sent down to the end of time when part of that week is firmly rooted in history? Should we stop referring to the "7 years of tribulation" as such and start referring to it as the "6 years, 11 months, and 17 days of tribulation"? Besides, only Luke's reckoning matters and he used the Syro-Macedonian calendar which would make Tiberius' 15th year reign and the year of Jesus' baptism 27 AD, and not the year of His death. You seem to be refusing Luke's likely method of reckoning and allowing some other uninspired writer's method to provide occasion to make 27 AD the year of Jesus' death.I don't know how many times you want me to repeat it... 483 years 13 days after the decree Jesus died... that's after 69 weeks... don't know what more to say but if we get into the meaning of what is is I'm out of here
See now you're picking and choosing verses instead of allowing them all to be placed in order... I didn't discard Luke's account, I included it, but you're using ONLY his account which is why you're wrong. I don't care it's the 70th week happened 2000 years ago or is next year, the last seven years of history are spelled out - whether they're connected to the 69 weeks or not doesn't really matter now does it? No. I'm not the one preaching they're connected, but you're preaching they are not connected. The problem I see with you is you're fixed on altering the prophecy, for whatever reason, so the clock ends at Jesus' baptism and not His death, which is what the prophecy is about. There is so much about the timing of Jesus death that is could ONLY have happened in 27AD, all you have to do is study the Jewish calendar to see that. I had to write a book to show all the nuances in order to show why. Now you can either take the time and read it or just move on because I'm not going to paste 206 pages... people don't even read 2 paragraphs for the most part on this site.
Dear brother, I'm not trying to show that the clock stopped with His baptism, I'm trying to show that the clock didn't stop at all! The 69 weeks ended with His baptism (...unto Messiah the prince) and the 70th week began ticking off the clock immediately afterward when His public ministry began and continued ticking off the clock until it was over. The plot has certainly thickened here LOL.
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BUT......if that is the case, then we will have to tear out of the Bible Daniels' words in 9:26...."Shall Messiah be cut off".
The terminus of the 1st 69 weeks was unto the Messiah the Prince in verse 25 indicating some point in His life, NOT His birth because of the chronology involved. This is usually seen as a reference to His entry to Jerusalem. Sometime after the fulfillment of the 483 year period shall Messiah be cut off and "have nothing".
The crucifixion of Christ is what coincides with Daniel's prediction as nearly all Bible scholars agree on. In other word......
the clock did stop with the crucifixion and the 7 years left will be the Tribulation Period.
Hello again, bro! I agree that His birth is not the event which concludes the 69 weeks. And scholars who claim His death is that event ignore simple logic in order to advance Futurism. Why? His death occurs after the conclusion of the 69 weeks (after [7weeks and] threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off). If His death concluded the 69 weeks, then His death would have taken place during the 69 weeks and be the conclusion of the 69 weeks, just as the conclusion of a book, play, or movie is understood to be a part of these, as well. Think about it. If Jesus' death is the conclusion of the 69 weeks, then how is it that Daniel says He is cut off after the 69 weeks has concluded?
The event that concludes the 69 weeks is His baptism, according to Luke 3. Why? We know Luke appealed to the Syro-Macedonian calendar for his reckoning of other chronological events, so we have no reason to believe that Luke would have not done so regarding his reckoning of Tiberius' 15th year reign. And, what year would that be? 27 AD, which is the end of the 69 weeks! After his baptism, His 3 1/2 year ministry commenced as the 70th week commenced, leaving no clock stoppage and no occasion to allow Daniel 9 to be the subject of Futurism's antichrist.
Hello again, bro! I agree that His birth is not the event which concludes the 69 weeks. And scholars who claim His death is that event ignore simple logic in order to advance Futurism. Why? His death occurs after the conclusion of the 69 weeks (after [7weeks and] threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off). If His death concluded the 69 weeks, then His death would have taken place during the 69 weeks and be the conclusion of the 69 weeks, just as the conclusion of a book, play, or movie is understood to be a part of these, as well. Think about it. If Jesus' death is the conclusion of the 69 weeks, then how is it that Daniel says He is cut off after the 69 weeks has concluded?
The event that concludes the 69 weeks is His baptism, according to Luke 3. Why? We know Luke appealed to the Syro-Macedonian calendar for his reckoning of other chronological events, so we have no reason to believe that Luke would have not done so regarding his reckoning of Tiberius' 15th year reign. And, what year would that be? 27 AD, which is the end of the 69 weeks! After his baptism, His 3 1/2 year ministry commenced as the 70th week commenced, leaving no clock stoppage and no occasion to allow Daniel 9 to be the subject of Futurism's antichrist.
Well, I can not agree with that my brother.
Christ's Triumphal entry into Jerusalem was followed 7 days later with His crucifixion. It is clear to me that Messiah was "cut off" or crucified which began the church age which we live in today. Christ died FOR the church so it stands to reason and logic in addition to the written Word that the Crucifixion of Christ for the sins of man would then begin the Church.
Then to put a lid on this, historical calculations by several well know establishments date Daniel's prophesy of 70 weeks to the exact DAY of Christ's crucifixion.
1. From 3-14-445 B.C. (Decree from Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem). to.....
A. Luke 19:28-44 says that Jesus came to Jerusalem and presented Himself as their Messiah.
B. Verse 37 says that His disciples recognized Him as Messiah but the people refused Him (vs. 39-40).
C. Verses 41-44 tells us that Jesus wept over the city and Israel ignored its time of visitation.
D. As a nation they choose to "CUT OFF their Messiah". This cutting off was the rejection and death of Christ.
2. That death has been given and accepted by scholars as April 6, 33 A.D. which is exactly 173,880 days or 483 years exactly as Daniel said!
3. When Israel rejected Christ as their Messiah, one part of God's prophetic clock stopped and He postponed their Kingdom where Messiah would rule and reign.
4. During that time, between the 69th and 70th week God created the Church. It would be made up of Jews and Gentiles to witness and spread the Gospel to the whole world.
~464 BC Artaxerxes ruled 39 years (~464 BC - ~425 BC) (3297/3298 Jewish Year - we don't know the month)
Year 3297 was from Sep 12, 465 BC to Sep 1, 464 BC
457 BC (3304 Jewish Year) (7th year Ezra 7:7)
Ezra 7:8 (KJV)
And he came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which [was] in the seventh year of the king.
The order is given to Ezra (Ezra 7:9) to rebuild the city and establish a government (Ezra 7:25) (which is different from that of Cyrus which was to rebuild only the temple), this is the year of the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy and the start of that same prophecy concerning the Messiah, Daniel 9:25-27.
This happened 1 Nisan 3304 (Mar 26, 457 BC) (Ezra 7:9) (3304+483=3787 Jewish Year)
Daniel 9:25-27 “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”
Ezra 7:9 “For upon the first day of the first month began he to go up from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him.”
Ezra 7:25 “And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not.”
In 483 years and 13 days, Jesus is "cut off" (Daniel 9:26) in the Jewish date of 14 Nisan 3787 (9 Apr 27AD). This is the only date that fits.
444 BC (3317 Jewish Calendar) (20th year) (3317+483=3800=40 AD too far)
Nehemiah is free to go back to Jerusalem to continue the rebuilding of the city and government.
Nehemiah 2:1 “And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king. Now I had not been beforetime sad in his presence.”
Nehemiah 5:14 “Moreover from the time that I was appointed to be their governor in the land of Judah, from the twentieth year even unto the two and thirtieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that is, twelve years, I and my brethren have not eaten the bread of the governor.”
Finally, for those that say that Ezra and Nehemiah's time was the same, I remind them of Nehemiah 13:6 when it shows that Nehemiah had returned to Persia, nothing says that he didn't do this several times. Therefore, he could have gone with Ezra the first time, and returned. We don't know, but since he was the King's cup bearer, it may have been a condition of the continued work that Ezra was doing. Finally, if you were to count this year as Daniel's prophecy fulfillment, Jesus would have died then in 40 AD! Never does scripture hint at a 30-34AD death of Jesus.
432 BC (3329 Jewish Calendar) (3329+483=3812=52 AD too far) (32nd year)
Nehemiah asks to take leave of the king,
Nehemiah 13:6 “But in all this time was not I at Jerusalem: for in the two and thirtieth year of Artaxerxes king of Babylon came I unto the king, and after certain days obtained I leave of the king:”
Jesus died on Passover, so here are the dates for Passover from 25AD (3785 Jewish Year) to 35AD (3795 Jewish Year)
All dates 14 Nisan
25 AD = Monday, Mar 31
26 AD = Friday, Mar 20
27 AD = Wednesday, Apr 7
28 AD = Monday, Mar 27
29 AD = Saturday, Apr 14
30 AD = Wednesday, Apr 3
31 AD = Monday, Mar 24
32 AD = Monday, Apr 12
33 AD = Friday, Apr 1
34 AD = Monday, Mar 20
35 AD = Monday, Apr 9
So with the command to rebuild the city of Jerusalem as 1 Nisan 3304 (Mar 26, 457 BC) + 483 years = 1 Nisan 3787 (Mar 25, 27AD) and 13 days later Jesus dies. The math doesn't lie on either calendar, 457 BC+483 = 26AD + 1 (no year zero) = 27 AD.
This also settles the day of the week in which Jesus died, the exact same day of the week of the first Passover.
Year 3297 was from Sep 12, 465 BC to Sep 1, 464 BC
457 BC (3304 Jewish Year) (7th year Ezra 7:7)
Ezra 7:8 (KJV)
And he came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which [was] in the seventh year of the king.
The order is given to Ezra (Ezra 7:9) to rebuild the city and establish a government (Ezra 7:25) (which is different from that of Cyrus which was to rebuild only the temple), this is the year of the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy and the start of that same prophecy concerning the Messiah, Daniel 9:25-27.
This happened 1 Nisan 3304 (Mar 26, 457 BC) (Ezra 7:9) (3304+483=3787 Jewish Year)
Daniel 9:25-27 “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”
Ezra 7:9 “For upon the first day of the first month began he to go up from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him.”
Ezra 7:25 “And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not.”
In 483 years and 13 days, Jesus is "cut off" (Daniel 9:26) in the Jewish date of 14 Nisan 3787 (9 Apr 27AD). This is the only date that fits.
444 BC (3317 Jewish Calendar) (20th year) (3317+483=3800=40 AD too far)
Nehemiah is free to go back to Jerusalem to continue the rebuilding of the city and government.
Nehemiah 2:1 “And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king. Now I had not been beforetime sad in his presence.”
Nehemiah 5:14 “Moreover from the time that I was appointed to be their governor in the land of Judah, from the twentieth year even unto the two and thirtieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that is, twelve years, I and my brethren have not eaten the bread of the governor.”
Finally, for those that say that Ezra and Nehemiah's time was the same, I remind them of Nehemiah 13:6 when it shows that Nehemiah had returned to Persia, nothing says that he didn't do this several times. Therefore, he could have gone with Ezra the first time, and returned. We don't know, but since he was the King's cup bearer, it may have been a condition of the continued work that Ezra was doing. Finally, if you were to count this year as Daniel's prophecy fulfillment, Jesus would have died then in 40 AD! Never does scripture hint at a 30-34AD death of Jesus.
432 BC (3329 Jewish Calendar) (3329+483=3812=52 AD too far) (32nd year)
Nehemiah asks to take leave of the king,
Nehemiah 13:6 “But in all this time was not I at Jerusalem: for in the two and thirtieth year of Artaxerxes king of Babylon came I unto the king, and after certain days obtained I leave of the king:”
Jesus died on Passover, so here are the dates for Passover from 25AD (3785 Jewish Year) to 35AD (3795 Jewish Year)
All dates 14 Nisan
25 AD = Monday, Mar 31
26 AD = Friday, Mar 20
27 AD = Wednesday, Apr 7
28 AD = Monday, Mar 27
29 AD = Saturday, Apr 14
30 AD = Wednesday, Apr 3
31 AD = Monday, Mar 24
32 AD = Monday, Apr 12
33 AD = Friday, Apr 1
34 AD = Monday, Mar 20
35 AD = Monday, Apr 9
So with the command to rebuild the city of Jerusalem as 1 Nisan 3304 (Mar 26, 457 BC) + 483 years = 1 Nisan 3787 (Mar 25, 27AD) and 13 days later Jesus dies. The math doesn't lie on either calendar, 457 BC+483 = 26AD + 1 (no year zero) = 27 AD.
This also settles the day of the week in which Jesus died, the exact same day of the week of the first Passover.
Bro, how can you calculate 483 years from 445 BC and arrive at 33 AD? Are you using Common Core math?
Here's how I see it:
- Artaxerxes' decree: 457 BC
- Add 483 years: 27 AD
- 27 AD: The year of "unto Messiah the prince" of Daniel 9, when Jesus was "anointed" by the Holy Spirit in dove form in the Jordan River, according to Luke 3 and the use of his favorite calendar, the Syro-Macedonian.
- "Unto Messiah the prince", the event in which our Lord is anointed in the Jordan, is the conclusion of the 69 weeks.
- The 70th week commenced with Jesus coming up out of the water and beginning His public ministry by calling His disciples.
- "After threescore and two (and the seven) weeks, or the 69 weeks, "Messiah (was) cut off but not for Himself" which was during the 70th week, and specifically, was in the midst of the 70th week after 3 1/2 years of ministry.
- "In the midst of the week, He (caused) the sacrifices and oblations to cease" to have any value in the eyes of God when He was crucified.
- No clock stoppage
Bro, how can you calculate 483 years from 445 BC and arrive at 33 AD? Are you using Common Core math?
Here's how I see it:
(Futurist scholars admit to Luke's affinity for this calendar, but choose to set it aside when reckoning Luke 3 because Futurism cannot possibly survive when this calendar chronicles the 15th year of Tiberius, which is the year of Jesus' baptism, as being 27 AD.)
- Artaxerxes' decree: 457 BC
- Add 483 years: 27 AD
- 27 AD: The year of "unto Messiah the prince" of Daniel 9, when Jesus was "anointed" by the Holy Spirit in dove form in the Jordan River, according to Luke 3 and the use of his favorite calendar, the Syro-Macedonian.
- "Unto Messiah the prince", the event in which our Lord is anointed in the Jordan, is the conclusion of the 69 weeks.
- The 70th week commenced with Jesus coming up out of the water and beginning His public ministry by calling His disciples.
- "After threescore and two (and the seven) weeks, or the 69 weeks, "Messiah (was) cut off but not for Himself" which was during the 70th week, and specifically, was in the midst of the 70th week after 3 1/2 years of ministry.
- "In the midst of the week, He (caused) the sacrifices and oblations to cease" to have any value in the eyes of God when He was crucified.
- No clock stoppage
360 days per year.
7 weeks (49 years) and 62 weeks (62 x 7 = 434 years) which total 69 weeks of years. 69 x 7 = 483 Bible years. That is a period of 173,880 days.
Daniel said that after 483 years or 173,880 days, the Messiah would be cut off.
That was fulfilled exactly as Daniel stated when caculated as stated from 3/14/445 BC to 4/6/33 AD.
That is when Jesus entered Jerusalem as their King and was rejected.
The prophecy of Daniel states that the Anointed One (or, in his reference, "Messiah the Prince") would come at the end of 69 (i.e., 7 + 62) weeks of years.
When Jesus came to the city, He wept as he approached it. WHY???? Because most of the people had failed to understand the timing of His coming (Luke 19:41-44), which they should have recognized from Daniel 9:25.
According to the prophecy, after 69 weeks of years (which was on Palm Sunday of Holy Week), the Anointed One would come. Soon after that (a few days later), He would be cut off (crucified).
CLOCK stops!
"In the midst of the week he causes the sacrifices to and oblations to cease."
IMO you have made a grave error. The "he" you keep referring to in Daniel 9:27 as the Messiah IS NOT THE MESSIAH my brother.
The "he" there is a pronoun in the Hebrew and therefore it must refer to its nearest antecedent......"the prince that shall come" which is the Antichrist in verse #26.
Therefore, IMO the correct interpretation is that the beginning of the 70th week happens when the Antichrist makes a peace covenant with the Jews for a seven period .
It is then that the "he", the Antichrist will stand in the temple at the 3 1/2 year mark and break that agreement and "he" causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease., that is put and end to the Jewish worship and declare himself as God!
I know you do not agree with that but I do! That is why I said we are not going to agree because you have some serious interpretational problems in your understanding. I realize that you will say the say thing about my understanding. So there you have it. we will be in disagreement !
My brother, please get out your calculator and type in -445 + 483 and tell me what you get. It is NOT 33! Besides, 445 is NOT the year of Artaxerxes' decree, it is 457 BC, which 69 weeks later brings us to 27 AD, the year of His baptism.
The fact that the Early Church Fathers thought Rome was the restrainer is fine historical fact and all.... but what are the consequences of that being the case?
Let's walk through it....
SO.... Question 1....
Which Rome is Rome?
Was it the physical CITY of Rome ....
Was it the Formal Roman Empire... If so, which half... The Byzantine empire lasted a LONG time....
Did it continue with the European Papacy and Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Church?
Or... do you consider the Turkish empire which went to 1918 to be the continuation of the Byzantine empire and thus Rome?
Please be specific.... Nail it down without any hand waving.....
So... Second question... If Rome is the Restrainer.... HAS Rome fallen or not?
Once again - please be specific...... Nail this down
Third question......
What are the Consequences of Rome and NOT the Holy Spirit being the Restrainer?
In contrast....
What are the consequences of the Holy Spirit and NOT Rome being the Restrainer?
Fourth question......
My opinion.... The events of the Jewish War from 66 to 71 AD are very instructive......
Do you see any parallels between the "Removal of the Restrainer" from Judea to the events in the Jewish War?
If not - fine...
If so.... WHAT was the Restrainer - whose removal precipitated the madness?
Thanks
Let's walk through it....
SO.... Question 1....
Which Rome is Rome?
Was it the physical CITY of Rome ....
Was it the Formal Roman Empire... If so, which half... The Byzantine empire lasted a LONG time....
Did it continue with the European Papacy and Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Church?
Or... do you consider the Turkish empire which went to 1918 to be the continuation of the Byzantine empire and thus Rome?
Please be specific.... Nail it down without any hand waving.....
So... Second question... If Rome is the Restrainer.... HAS Rome fallen or not?
Once again - please be specific...... Nail this down
Third question......
What are the Consequences of Rome and NOT the Holy Spirit being the Restrainer?
In contrast....
What are the consequences of the Holy Spirit and NOT Rome being the Restrainer?
Fourth question......
My opinion.... The events of the Jewish War from 66 to 71 AD are very instructive......
Do you see any parallels between the "Removal of the Restrainer" from Judea to the events in the Jewish War?
If not - fine...
If so.... WHAT was the Restrainer - whose removal precipitated the madness?
Thanks