Isaac vs. Ishmael - Israel vs Arab nations ...?

[KingJ]

There is a scary verse in Proverbs 16: 4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

and again more verses about God working his purpose on Earth -
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Romans 9: 15-18

And that is exactly why we...as Christians... must not follow in the devils footsteps. The devil quotes half truths, we SHOULD NOT do likewise....

1. God made all things. Yes and He is a good God. Lets give thanks! Psalm 136:1.
2. Even the wicked for the day of evil. Yes, God knew there would be wicked. That is why Jesus was planned before the foundations of the earth. It was a NO brainer that weak flesh would fall into wickedness / sin. But to ASSUME this translates into God affecting the will to love sin and be condemned to hell for eternity is absolute heresy / assumption / on par with the devil telling Jesus to jump. YES well done, it is written angels will catch you. So why don't those who cannot read all of scripture jump more often....
3. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy. Thank you Lord. For you have made it clear to us in John 3:16 whom you choose to have mercy on.
4. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. We know that He has mercy on those that repent Psalm 51:17. He chooses to not have mercy on those that love the darkness John 3:19.
5. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. God has everything planned out. God also uses what is available. Abraham was not a perfect person by any means. But He was all / the best God had to work with. Abraham committed adultery for crying out aloud. Does this then translate into God condemning Pharoah and not Abraham to eternal fire....no...absolutely brain dead insinuation.

 

[Waggles]

Are all human being created equal ?

Yes. Salvation has gone out to the gentiles. Out to the nations. Every tongue. Every tribe. all peoples.
But when God looks down or examines human beings he does not see what we see.
We see other people on the outside. Their height. Their physical fitness or obesity. Their skin colour and race. Male or female. Tall or short.
We see people's actions and make judgments (with or without wisdom and discernment) as to the value of those actions from our perspective.
We live today and plan (mostly) for tomorrow. We respond to our needs.

The Spirit world of God and the Angels it is not like that. It is outside of time for starters. Jesus already is the beginning and the end.
God sees souls. He sees our hearts, our intents, our submission or disobedience, our rebellion, our love, our hypocrisy, our sincerity.
Jesus can already see our futures. He can see if we will be saved through faith and love and obedience. Jesus intervenes in history to preserve nations [e.g. Britain in the 2nd World War] so as to assist the purpose of the gospel being preached and christian missionary work to be maintained.
Imagine if the Nazis won, and they dismantled Christianity as they had planned to and replaced it with worship of the Fuhrer and the swastika.

God is dealing with our souls. He is dealing with our future destinies. To be with him forever, or not to be with him forever.
Some people/nations are blessed in that they serve his purpose for the gospel to be preached and upheld through Christian endevour.
Some people/nations do not appear to be blessed because they oppose and frustrate the purpose of God and the spread of the Gospel.
I guess the Arabs are sort of like the ancient Philistines. They know of Moses and the Prophets, even of Jesus.
But they choose to despise and attack and oppress Jews and Christians. Yes, individual Muslims can believe the gospel and receive salvation in Jesus.
But collectively as a people and as nations the Arabs are against giving honour and belief to the truth of the Bible, the Word of God.
God deals with them so that his will and purpose shall be fulfilled, just as he uses Israel similarly to bring about what he has already planned.

 

[KingJ]

the Angels it is not like that. It is outside of time for starters. Jesus already is the beginning and the end.
God sees souls. He sees our hearts, our intents, our submission or disobedience, our rebellion, our love, our hypocrisy, our sincerity.
Jesus can already see our futures. He can see if we will be saved through faith and love and obedience. Jesus intervenes in history to preserve nations [e.g. Britain in the 2nd World War] so as to assist the purpose of the gospel being preached and christian missionary work to be maintained.

I can agree with most of your post, but the underlined are simply assumptions. You are trying to grasp the mind of God with a human mind. You are stating your opinion of what an omniscient mind can do. Sure, it sounds logical. But you have not applied other factors of God to the equation. If God can limit His omnipotence on the cross to save us, you ASSUME He cannot limit His omniscience to preserve our free will? He can do anything but He can't do that? He is not an all consuming fire with no darkness?

We cannot grasp God Job 9:3. We can ONLY look at where the evidence points. Please do not make assumptions that imply God is evil. Granted you said 'God makes us all equal'. It seems like you are contradicting yourself to me.

 

[KingJ]

If God knows from our birth that we will love the darkness, how in the universe is making us, not evil. I challenge anyone who thinks they can wrap their minds around God's omniscience to also explain to me in just as much detail:

1. How did God come into existence?
2. How is God one, yet three?
3. How can God of the universe remove all His power and be a lamb to the slaughter? Consider Ex 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live''.

We cannot grasp God. We can only rejoice because all the evidence points heavily IN His favor for being a good God.

 

[calvin]

There are many question that puzzled me, let me start with this one.
Are all human being created equal ?
I do not understand why the Israelites is the chosen people. Are other people seem lesser in God's eye. My understanding is that from Ishmael (son of Hagar) came the Arab nations and from Isaac came Jacob the Israel. The animosity between the seeds of both have been from time immemorial up to now. Throughout history God stands on the side of the Israelites. And modern history from the 1948 establishment of the Israel state to now until eternity, Israelites are the favored son. Almost as if in this overall scheme there are those who are created as villains against God's chosen. I assume no one want to be Judas but someone has to take up this role otherwise the salvation would not happen the way it was. It is almost this is a big production directed by God and He has selected the role for each one of us. I heard different explanation but yet to fully satisfied with the answer.

I want to believe God as just and fair and a loving Father to all his creation. I try not to dwell on this too much for it can mess up my faith. But when I look all around the world to see living condition of the Palestinians, how they are treated ( regardless how politically they end up where they are), I just have to ask.

I believe that the idea that the Lord chose Israel as a privileged people to the detriment of others is not at all right.

For whatever reason, the Lord chose to develop the nation of Israel through Abraham and then through Isaac and so on, because He needed and wanted to establish a lineage through which the Saviour would come.
Exo 19:6. and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel."
Israel is chosen, but chosen to be a servant, not a king. It is only the arrogance and the envy of men that has brought about all the strife we see in the world. Consider the Lord's (not hidden) agenda
Isa 56:7. these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples."
Then Jesus reinforces the idea of what the purpose of the Israelites and also the Temple is intended to be and as we can see they are failing comprehensively.
Mar 11:17 And he was teaching them and saying to them, "Is it not written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations'? But you have made it a den of robbers."
I personally really like these above scriptures because the shout the Lord's concern for the whole world of people and reminds us today, that we need to be praying for the whole world, not each individual , but for the nations as our lord wants, for we too are to be a peculiar people, as Peter wrote,
1Pe 2:9. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
Proclaim to whom? To all people to the ends of the Earth.

So, I believe it is very unfair to condemn the Lord because of man's arrogance, his pride, his greed and selfishness, his unjustified envy.
Israel is the chosen servant, not really the favored ones at all, because the Lord is concerned for each and every human being that ever was, is now, and ever will be. We are all created in His image.
I would like to encourage you to read the passages in context, that is to say, read the verses either side of the ones I have posted to get a better feeling for what Scripture is telling us.

 

[Ph8th]

1. How did God come into existence?
2. How is God one, yet three?
3. How can God of the universe remove all His power and be a lamb to the slaughter? Consider Ex 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live''.

1. God did not come into existence He is, He was and always will be no beginning nor end
2. God is one in essence three, regardless of how all three are evident throughout scripture
3. He can because He is God

 

[KingJ]

1. God did not come into existence He is, He was and always will be no beginning nor end
2. God is one in essence three, regardless of how all three are evident throughout scripture
3. He can because He is God

Ph8th, I agree with you and don't want to bash you. I just want us to grasp that we can't grasp Him.

Example on your comment to #1...I want to propose that God told us 'He is' because that is all our tiny brains can grasp...the fact that He is there. Suggesting God knows the evil from birth is on par with suggesting God came from a big bang.

 

[Ph8th]

Ph8th, I agree with you and don't want to bash you. I just want us to grasp that we can't grasp Him.

Example on your comment to #1...I want to propose that God told us 'He is' because that is all our tiny brains can grasp...the fact that He is there. Suggesting God knows the evil from birth is on par with suggesting God came from a big bang.

Brother at no time did I suggest big bang .... God is infinite no beginning nor end He is. ...I did not say anything concerning being born evil .....Although all are born of Adam It is that very Adamic nature/flesh that is opposed to God. I do read the post here I find no value in most of them when they turn into jousting.

 

[wwjosh19]

There is a scary verse in Proverbs 16: 4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
and again more verses about God working his purpose on Earth -
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Romans 9:15-18

Add to these scriptures can be Isaiah 55:8 " my thought are not your thought" and the experience of Job. Job inquired why God did the things He did. God did not answered his questions but rather replied with more questions to convince Job of finite knowledge. May be the crux of the matter is, our human brain just can not comprehend the width and depth of the divine wisdom. What seem random events may be well connected, just like an analogy I read before that " when we look at the underside of a beautiful Persians rug, the stitches that make up the beautiful design seem chaotic and disconnected, we do not see the big picture until the master designer allow us to see the full design ".

Another thought of Pastor Rick Warren's best seller " purpose driven life" , the theme is " it is all about God and not about us". Once we accept this, we may start to accept life events as is. There are a wealth of good answers to my question. I do not expect I will ever fully understand. I believe one day I will as in Corinthians 13:12-13 said " For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

I concluded one thing - We do not need to know how a car work to drive it. Just trust your God and soldier on. Ecclesiastes 12 :13-14 is a good summary of what is expected of us. "Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil"

 

[KingJ]

I concluded one thing - We do not need to know how a car work to drive it. Just trust your God and soldier on. Ecclesiastes 12 :13-14 is a good summary of what is expected of us. "Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind. 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil"

What this implies is that we must soldier on and whether God is good or evil is irrelevant. These type of Calvinistic discussions always end up as such.

We fear God because we don't want to be without Him. Only the wise fear God. Because the wise know the difference between death and life. Life with God and life without God.

We can only soldier on / we must only soldier on...once we are fully convinced that God is good. Are you convinced of that?

 

[/]

Warning
Do not go down the avenue of Calvinistic discussions as these will be removed. We have exhausted all means on this subject and no further discussions on this are permitted.

 

[KingJ]

1. Brother at no time did I suggest big bang .... 2. God is infinite no beginning nor end He is. ...3. I did not say anything concerning being born evil .....4. Although all are born of Adam It is that very Adamic nature/flesh that is opposed to God. I do read the post here I find no value in most of them when they turn into jousting.

1. I did not say you did.
2. Amen, I agree. But can we just be honest and say that that answer flies over our head. We cannot spend a second thinking about it without getting a migraine .
3. Yes, but that is what my original post you commented on was for.
4. Amen. We all in the same boat.

 

[wwjosh19]

We can only soldier on / we must only soldier on...once we are fully convinced that God is good. Are you convinced of that?

There is no other option but to be convinced that God is good. Otherwise we have nothing. Other thing that I learned from this thread as we discussed the good and evil. For a long time I always wonder why God was so callous in the old testament in asking the Israelite to wipe out the whole village as they were taking over the promised land. If Israelite had been obedient, may be we do not have the middle east situation as today. Further more I understood there were people so evil that God just took them out in OT. The modern day equivalent may be the barbaric act committed by those in the name of faith in Syria we saw in the media lately

 

[KingJ]

Well yes, the nations that opposed Israel had to be very wicked. Here is a nation of people in desperate need of help + everyone knows God is with them + they live by the harshest laws ever seen by mankind / they were very 'good' people.

What is interesting is that Jews did not torture victims. God and prophets instructed quick deaths. Even punishment among themselves. Sorcerers burnt at stake with a proper fire. No brazen bulls.

That verse Rav gave of the Amorites sin not reaching full measure is definitely one to remember.

 

[KingJ]

There is no other option but to be convinced that God is good. Otherwise we have nothing.

I don't believe God expects us to blindly believe He is good. I firmly believe we can sanely and honestly defend God as good. It is those so easy to make assumptions on the unknown that trip us up.

Remember David said give thanks everyone!! because God is good Psalm 136:1. He did not say ''give thanks because only a mad man thinks God is good'' ''Give thanks because only the dumb think He is good''.''Give thanks because He is good some of the time but a mental case most of the time''. I gave you many scriptures showing how God wants us to grasp that He is good. He has got nothing to hide.

Not seeing through a glass darkly in heaven = He has nothing to hide. If He did, we would be seeing through a darker glass .

 

[KingJ]

The modern day equivalent may be the barbaric act committed by those in the name of faith in Syria we saw in the media lately

You got a link?

 

[Brother Paul]

Just thinking, .. which is heavier: a betrayal (Judas) or a denial (Peter)….?

And as I understand, both, Judas and Peter are both warned…

And I think both have the same rights to ask for forgiveness….

So one practicing one’s right, is a question of “Are all human being created equal”?

I don’t think so …

It is a matter of choice…. of freedom to choose....I think.

Yes but with God, it is a matter of the heart, not the mouth, not the genes...God did not "create" Ishmael's offspring (by the way, very few Muslims are Ishmaelites) to be "the villains" here, they chose to be the villains toward the Israelites over and over since shortly after the Moses events (and certainly not all, mainly the Midianites) their other enemies (Edomites, Jebusites, Ammonites, etc.,) were NOT the children of Ishmael....the Edomites for example were the children if Isaac/Egyptian (Esau's kids)

Next, when Israel received the okay from the UN Council to return to the land, they were given no special privilege. The area in Palestine they were given was about 1 1/2% of the land mass there. Many Muslim leaders thought it a curse on them. King Hussein of Jordan called the area "the toilet bowl of the earth". Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) described this area as “….. A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds… a silent mournful expanse…. a desolation…. we never saw a human being on the whole route…. hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.”

So you see, despite the propaganda,where they put the Jewish people was no choice prize place....NO ONE WANTED IT....save Jerusalem NO MUSLIMS WOULD LIVE THERE....

But the Palestinian Muslims have always been a deprived people. With all the wealth of all the surrounding Muslim nations NO ONE GAVE A DAMN...When the nations (even the USA) gave Yasar Arafat billions for humanitarian aid, he kept it for himself, the people saw very little...

It WAS NOT an occupation government of Jews over Arab people at that time at all....most of the attacks and killings were predominately against Jews by Muslims (for they had been supportive of the Nazis all through WWII). For an entire decade it was all the Jewish people could do to defend themselves.
I agree the false political entity called "Zionists" were racist political socialists and social Darwinians who took "chosen" to mean superior, better, more rightful, etc., but you must not throw the baby out with the bath water. The six-day war was not a response to Jewish oppression, it was an attempt at annihilation of all Jews (in their true Hitlerian nature)...they were pissed because the Jews had come in and turned the toilet bowl into a flourishing oasis and now they wanted the booty of that they had not worked for. Still to this day the surrounding nations contribute little to the Palestinian crisis and when the do groups like Hamas scoop it up and use it for assault.

After the 6 day war things changed but still even when Israel gave back the Gaza strip it was lush and productive and full of gardens, farms, houses, etc., same with the West Bank, but Hamas destroyed all that robbing their own people from benefiting by it.

 

[Major]

There are many question that puzzled me, let me start with this one.
Are all human being created equal ?
I do not understand why the Israelites is the chosen people. Are other people seem lesser in God's eye. My understanding is that from Ishmael (son of Hagar) came the Arab nations and from Isaac came Jacob the Israel. The animosity between the seeds of both have been from time immemorial up to now. Throughout history God stands on the side of the Israelites. And modern history from the 1948 establishment of the Israel state to now until eternity, Israelites are the favored son. Almost as if in this overall scheme there are those who are created as villains against God's chosen. I assume no one want to be Judas but someone has to take up this role otherwise the salvation would not happen the way it was. It is almost this is a big production directed by God and He has selected the role for each one of us. I heard different explanation but yet to fully satisfied with the answer.

I want to believe God as just and fair and a loving Father to all his creation. I try not to dwell on this too much for it can mess up my faith. But when I look all around the world to see living condition of the Palestinians, how they are treated ( regardless how politically they end up where they are), I just have to ask.

Speaking of the nation of Israel, Deut. 7:7-9,
“The LORD did not set His affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath He swore to your forefathers that He brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; He is the faithful God, keeping His covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love Him and keep His commands.”

God chose the nation of Israel to be the people through whom Jesus Christ would be born—the Savior from sin and death. God first promised the Messiah after Adam and Eve’s fall into sin (Genesis chapter 3). God later confirmed that the Messiah would come from the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus Christ is the ultimate reason why God chose Israel to be His special people. God did not need to have a chosen people, but He decided to do it that way. Jesus had to come from some nation of people, and God chose Israel.

However, God’s reason for choosing the nation of Israel was not solely for the purpose of producing the Messiah. God’s desire for Israel was that they would go and teach others about Him. Israel was to be a nation of priests, prophets, and missionaries to the world. God’s intent was for Israel to be a distinct people, a nation who pointed others towards God and His promised provision of a Redeemer, Messiah, and Savior. For the most part, Israel failed in this task. However, God’s ultimate purpose for Israel—that of bringing the Messiah into the world—was fulfilled perfectly in the Person of Jesus Christ.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/why-God-choose-Israel.html#ixzz3TcYsL5na

 

[wwjosh19]

You got a link?

I am referring to the ISIS what they did the hostages

 

[Lanolin]

Remember we worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (now Israel). We come into this relationship only through Jesus. Muslims have chosen to worship another god of their own making.
God does not like idolatry. He is almighty over creation.

I think you are starting to see the big picture. God is just and good. He will do what he promised, he is good and hates evil. At anytime, we humans can choose good over evil. God sent Jesus so that we can choose good, and Jesus is open to anyone who chooses to follow Him. If we preach the gospel, those that havent heard about Jesus can come to faith. Nothing is set in stone. Why hasnt Jesus returned already? Because God is patient. He is loving, he is merciful. he is not willing for anyone to perish.