It’s All About Faith

A thought occurred to me (I've never read anything written by Plato - sadly I guess) and what you said made me think. Paul says we're in the heavenlies already (Eph 2:6). We are in the Jesus' hand, and He in the Father's (John 10:29) therefore we're waiting for time to catch up with eternity where we reside already. I know it sounds odd, but I see it like this: remember when Moses went up the mount to speak to God face-to-face? (Exo 33:11) Then we jump ~1548 years, or so, to the mount of transfiguration where Jesus (God) is talking to Moses (Mat 17:3). Though we have a storyline from two vantage points on the timeline spanning ~1548 years, it's actually the same event in eternity :)
 
The Lord Jesus is always more concerned with what He can do for us, rather than what we can do for Him (Luke 10:40-42). The desire of worship and service to Him and the Father is sought and returned (John 4:23, 24), and if the intention is out of debt (which there is none), the full work and understanding of grace is incomplete where the conscience is concerned, producing an inferior liberation from guilt, which results in the “weighty” reasoning that you will always owe the Father for His grace in Christ. This will spawn a works-based concept by attempting repayment, which never truly satisfies, ending with an inevitable disappointment.

Nowhere is it said in “the word of truth” that the gift of grace, which is “the free gift” (Eph 2:8; Rom 5:15, 16, 18) incurs repayment. Though this gift was at cost, wherein we were “bought with a price,” our desire to “glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's” (1 Cor 6:20) must find its sole basis in gratitude and love for Them, not out of an owed unpayable debt. This would be a miscomprehension of the proper construct concerning the definition of “gift,”—and “free” at that, not to mention frustration to the overall entailment of God’s love.

I believe one of the primary goals of the Spirit of God is to teach us to focus our faith solely on Scriptural facts within the cannon of the Bible, and minimizing, as much as lies within us from being moved by sense and intemperate emotion. A simple truth to mind is that faith is maintained only through that from which it is formed (Rom 10:17).

Amen brother.

Bottom line is that......"faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (Rom. 10:17).
 
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Plato's cave is an [unnecessarily complex] allegory about perception.

The basic idea is that you've got some people (us) all sitting in a cave staring at the wall, unable to turn their heads. They've got a light source behind them, so they can see shadows on the wall, but they are unable to see what's causing the shadows. (There are quite a few more levels to the allegory; that's just your barebones rundown of it.)

So how do we turn around and see the real things? Plato says that education is the art of turning souls around.

Actually, he believed that we all, at some point, came from the realm of real things, which he called "forms." We could probably think of this "realm" he believed in as the "spiritual realm," and that would be a fairly similar concept. So to Plato, "education" was simply remembering what you already knew before your temporal existence began.

As Christians, we could probably respond by saying that only God can "turn souls around" and reveal Truth; we cannot discern Truth by our own power.

So, when you said that the word of God is a "shadow," I assumed you meant that the Bible is fully true, but it's not the full Truth, and that full Truth is known only by God, and He is capable of revealing any part of it to whomever He pleases, at His pleasure.

Agreed my brother.
 
[quote="Brother Paul, post: 304843, member: 13044"..as Paul says how can they believe what they have not heard, and how can they hear lest they be told and so God first gives us those who speak His words...so I agree the focus is Christ (the written word secondarily)...

I don't fully agree. The Word is alive and spirit.


If you disagree with St. Paul that is fine with me...now then, Jesus said His words are spirit and they are life...His words...the focus is on what He said...it does not say the Word with a capital W which is Christ (thought He certainly is the life of all who are saved)

Again you make the same mistake when you say "Faith comes by hearing something, and in several places by the anointing the Word is expounded in a more clear way. Jesus Christ or Jesus the anointed one and his anointing is to show us more clearly Himself as He said I can be found in the Word.

The Word of God is not the word of God...one is a person (the living Word) and the other the written word...just say'n

Now then after reading all you have said I see no difference...however we hear the word whether by His direct revelation, by a preacher or a teacher, or by reading or hearing the written word (small w) it is still by hearing...many though they have ears to hear can read the word (small w) over and over and get nothing...

All I was saying was that our being saved does not come from reading the written word (though that is certainly one of the ways the Spirit convicts some)...He says My sheep shall hear my voice, not my sheep shall read about what I said...St. Paul also elsewhere says (Ephesians 1:13) "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Most of the people Paul was addressing here could not read and the New Testament had not even been written...but many in that place were saved because after hearing the gospel of their salvation they trusted...whether they could read or nat had nothing to do with it...same with the 3,000 souls at Pentecost and more...

No Michael, your argument is not with me as I am not saying one cannot learn of GOd or find the path to salvation therein....this is the Theopneustos Graphae (God breathed writings) but most come to Christ by learning of Him or hearing of Him outside of having read the Bible (most Christians I know have never even read the whole Bible)...some terrible heretics and enemies of God have and use the ignorance of some against them to confuse them shaking their faith to the quik and causing great doubts...I love the word of God (my absolute favorite 66 books trough which the Lord speaks to me ever new and I have read them over and over) but it is by God's grace I have been saved, through faith in Christ.

In His love

brother Paul[/quote]

I do not think I can remember anyone who read the Bible and then made a decision to be saved. Everyone I know, the gospel was explained, they accepted it and then we encouraged them to read the Bible so that there faith would grow hence..........
Rom 10:17........"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God".
 
A thought occurred to me (I've never read anything written by Plato - sadly I guess) and what you said made me think. Paul says we're in the heavenlies already (Eph 2:6). We are in the Jesus' hand, and He in the Father's (John 10:29) therefore we're waiting for time to catch up with eternity where we reside already. I know it sounds odd, but I see it like this: remember when Moses went up the mount to speak to God face-to-face? (Exo 33:11) Then we jump ~1548 years, or so, to the mount of transfiguration where Jesus (God) is talking to Moses (Mat 17:3). Though we have a storyline from two vantage points on the timeline spanning ~1548 years, it's actually the same event in eternity :)

I am having trouble getting my head around your thought of......
"Though we have a storyline from two vantage points on the timeline spanning ~1548 years, it's actually the same event in eternity".

It is probably just me but I can not seem to make that work.
 
I am having trouble getting my head around your thought of......
"Though we have a storyline from two vantage points on the timeline spanning ~1548 years, it's actually the same event in eternity".

It is probably just me but I can not seem to make that work.

It doesn't surprise me.
 
Every comment I made resulted in an attack by you so call me Pavlov's dog...

I'm not sure how to reword it, so all I can suggest is meditate on it.
 
Every comment I made resulted in an attack by you so call me Pavlov's dog...

I'm not sure how to reword it, so all I can suggest is meditate on it.

Nope, That is incorrect.

Because someone disagrees with the comments you made, does not mean it is an insult.

I will leave it at that because I have no desire to argue with you. Life it too short for such things to me.
 
Yes, Hebrews 8 & 10.

Those are types from the OT to the NT. Healing for example they killed a bird and kept a live bird mixed blood and water. It was a type that is today, the shadow of what is now.

Not that the Word of God is a shadow or some how not first in all things. The Word is life and health to our flesh, it's not a shadow. The law is perfect, it's man who was not perfect and could not keep the law.

The Word must be first and only, no relationship with the Lord happens outside the Word, but inside. If you go outside then you start believing other things that are not the Word and then your in trouble because the devil will devour who is easy to devour. Someone that does not Hold the Word of God as all authority and no authority but the Word of God.
 
Be careful with your capitalizations. The word isn't life, the Word is Life. Big distinction. The lost cannot understand the word without the Word. Even with the Word we look into the glass darkly, ignorant of all Truth. The word of God is not all there is to God, but the Word of God is all there is!
 
Be careful with your capitalizations. The word isn't life, the Word is Life. Big distinction. The lost cannot understand the word without the Word. Even with the Word we look into the glass darkly, ignorant of all Truth. The word of God is not all there is to God, but the Word of God is all there is!

Don't take to much stock in my using Capitols. The Word is alive (quick) and is powerful. Faith comes by hearing, so it takes the Holy Spirit to teach the Word through those sent. There are a whole bunch of things we don't understand about the Word, and so we do see everything clearly. There is more than enough there though that we would not be able to understand all in our life time here.

The only issue I would take up with your statement is the possibility to believe things that are not in the Word, for the Word is vast enough than to say we know things never mentioned. Mormonism was created this way, The Catholic church was created this way, and many others who are in error was created this way.

Now if you say its not in the Word which House I should believe God for, then your next house is not mentioned in the Word, but Wisdom from God is mentioned and the promise to be led by the Spirit of God is there and the Sheep hear the Lords voice and won't follow a false voice is there. God will give me the desires of my heart is there and God will perfect those things that concern me is there.

So, your next house for example has plenty of backing by the Word to be led to the right one, for you and your family.

There would be nothing learned past the Word that would contradict any scripture though.

Blessings.
 
Don't take to much stock in my using Capitols. The Word is alive (quick) and is powerful. Faith comes by hearing, so it takes the Holy Spirit to teach the Word through those sent. There are a whole bunch of things we don't understand about the Word, and so we do see everything clearly. There is more than enough there though that we would not be able to understand all in our life time here.

The only issue I would take up with your statement is the possibility to believe things that are not in the Word, for the Word is vast enough than to say we know things never mentioned. Mormonism was created this way, The Catholic church was created this way, and many others who are in error was created this way.

Now if you say its not in the Word which House I should believe God for, then your next house is not mentioned in the Word, but Wisdom from God is mentioned and the promise to be led by the Spirit of God is there and the Sheep hear the Lords voice and won't follow a false voice is there. God will give me the desires of my heart is there and God will perfect those things that concern me is there.

So, your next house for example has plenty of backing by the Word to be led to the right one, for you and your family.

There would be nothing learned past the Word that would contradict any scripture though.

Blessings.

Clearly then, isn't that the reason why the Word of God must be protected and defended as it is without any errors or contradictions?
 
Clearly then, isn't that the reason why the Word of God must be protected and defended as it is without any errors or contradictions?

That would be correct sir. As Peter said, he heard the voice of God, Saw Elijah and Moses with God. He went on to say though that despite what He saw and experienced we have a MORE SURE WORD. Then He went to say no passage of scripture can be understood privately meaning that the Word confirms itself in more than one place and no one scripture is to be understood by itself.

There are no contradictions in God's Word. There is only our not understanding just how it does not fit. (Our lack of understanding does not cause a contradiction) For the Same Word said God caused David to number the Troops and the Same Word said it was Satan but they are both 100% correct and do not contradict at all.

There is ZERO revelation of God outside of the Word of God, For he magnified his Word above his name.

Blessings.
 
To me, Faith is quite simple and the only meritorious act given to us, human beings. That we know Christ, who was sinless, died in expiation for all mankinds sin. That He is the only way back to God. As has been said, already those that never read a bible, have been saved. Unfortunately, scripture can be twisted, sculpted - made to say anything. It is the heart of scripture and the "feel" of truth, that matters.
 
Amen Silk. Faith is the currency of heaven!

Others: If you don't follow proper English grammar, how can we communicate correctly? Don't make out the word of God to be God. Jesus is the Word, but the paper word of God is translated. Things are always lost in translation. e.g. "If you love Me, feed my sheep" conversation with Peter. With the Holy Spirit the word of God is still very powerful because it's not the words that matter but the Word (Jesus). I can teach a parrot to quote John 3:16 and put him on a mic and it'll have no more power over the hearers than a un-anointed preacher. But if the Holy Spirit moves through the people then the quoting parrot cannot be stopped. God doesn't need defending. He's been doing fine without you for thousands of years. What He needs are obedient people to His moving which will NEVER contradict the written word of God. Defend the Faith not the paper! ;)

MichaelH: I'm sorry to hear you say that because you're missing out on a LOT of awesome stuff. But then none of it contradicts the word of God :D

Just my 2 cents...
 
MichaelH: I'm sorry to hear you say that because you're missing out on a LOT of awesome stuff. But then none of it contradicts the word of God :D

Just my 2 cents...

Well, scripture only. For me to believe something I need something called a scripture and I don't need 5 others that contradict it. It means that one must line up with the 5 and we lack understanding of the 6.

If I think I hear the Lord tell me something that I can't reference scriptures to, then I ask him to confirm that in His Word. I don't need a scripture though if he says....... Go to Sams club. I would just go and find out why I had to when I get there.

I am not saying we don't respond to the Holy Spirit without 5 pages of scripture first. It might be to late at that point, and then God will just have to explain to us after we get killed for lack of responding, once in heaven.

for example I was just out of Parole, had a fight with my boss, then my wife so I thought it would be a good idea to grab a beer and just chill on the way back to the homeless shelter. Before I walked in the bar I heard very loud inside....."DON'T, Keep walking."

Now had I tried to reason that out, and waited on 10 scriptures I would have gone back to jail. I reluctantly obeyed and come to find out the police where at the Homeless shelter doing breath test. Had I failed I would have violated parole.
 
That would be correct sir. As Peter said, he heard the voice of God, Saw Elijah and Moses with God. He went on to say though that despite what He saw and experienced we have a MORE SURE WORD. Then He went to say no passage of scripture can be understood privately meaning that the Word confirms itself in more than one place and no one scripture is to be understood by itself.

There are no contradictions in God's Word. There is only our not understanding just how it does not fit. (Our lack of understanding does not cause a contradiction) For the Same Word said God caused David to number the Troops and the Same Word said it was Satan but they are both 100% correct and do not contradict at all.

There is ZERO revelation of God outside of the Word of God, For he magnified his Word above his name.

Blessings.

Amen brother.

Some question me on my literal understanding upon the Word of God and insisting that it is the complete and has not errors or mistakes. The reason is this. If the non-believers show us that it can be wrong in one part it is wrong in all parts. Then the next step would be to call God a liar and then claim that there is no God at all.

You hang in there brother and be strong for the Lord! I will pray for you.
 
Amen Silk. Faith is the currency of heaven!

Others: If you don't follow proper English grammar, how can we communicate correctly? Don't make out the word of God to be God. Jesus is the Word, but the paper word of God is translated. Things are always lost in translation. e.g. "If you love Me, feed my sheep" conversation with Peter. With the Holy Spirit the word of God is still very powerful because it's not the words that matter but the Word (Jesus). I can teach a parrot to quote John 3:16 and put him on a mic and it'll have no more power over the hearers than a un-anointed preacher. But if the Holy Spirit moves through the people then the quoting parrot cannot be stopped. God doesn't need defending. He's been doing fine without you for thousands of years. What He needs are obedient people to His moving which will NEVER contradict the written word of God. Defend the Faith not the paper! ;)

MichaelH: I'm sorry to hear you say that because you're missing out on a LOT of awesome stuff. But then none of it contradicts the word of God :D

Just my 2 cents...

Now this is a perfect example "Abdicate" where you are going out of your way to make a personal comment to Mike because he does not agree with you.

Do you not re-call telling us all how important it was to read and know about the Apocrypha which DOES CONTAIN NO-BIBLE INFORMATION WHICH TOTALLY CONTRADICTS THE BIBLE.

I am not attacking you neither am I Mike's defender as he is well able to do that himself. I am only pointing how you are using "selective" comments toward others who do not agree with you.

Abdicate, you are quick to point out the failures of Mike because he as well as me have rejected your comments about the Apocrypha.

Then you say this..........
" MichaelH: I'm sorry to hear you say that because you're missing out on a LOT of awesome stuff. But then none of it contradicts the word of God".

But that is not true now is it? The Apocrypha does contradict the written Word of God and that is why it is not in the Bible. It is a combination of works that are non-sense and in fact IMHO simply garbage and should never be used as any support of Biblical truth. These include the Pseudepigrapha which contains Enoch, Michael the Archangel, and Jannes and Jambres. Many spurious books falsely claim to have been written by various Old Testament patriarchs. They were composed between 200 B.C. and 100 A.D. There are lots of these spurious books like The Assumption of Moses, Apocalypse of Elijah, and Ascension of Isaiah.

Here below are just 3 of the contradictions that are stated in the Apocrypha:
The command to use magic (Tobit 6:5-7).
Forgiveness of sins by almsgiving (Tobit 4:11; 12:9).
Offering of money for the sins of the dead (2 Maccabees 12:43-45).
 
(How to say this and not sound argumentative?) We all come to reading the Bible/scripture with our own level of understanding, which hopefully grows. In saying this I am somewhat in agreement with MichaelH that it is our perception of what is being said. It is people's interpetation of scripture that can often lead to trouble. In my heart, my faith? there is no mistake/error/contradiction that anyone - believer or no - can point to dissolve my knowledge of God. They can point to seeming contradictions in the Bible and not destabilize my faith, because I go for the heart of scripture - not a verse quoted out of context or a seeming contradictory statement/interpetation that may be out of the level of my current understanding. Petty, seeming contradictions in the bible, do not sway me from the overall truth that is there. Think I'm being muddled in expressing this. Scripture is a guideline.
 
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