JESUS - On earth in the Millennium? Questions to consider.

[Marilyn C]

What would you like me to address? Jesus isn't just first, but all.

Hi @Abdicate,

I think you are referring to me saying, `it strikes at the very heart of the pre-eminence of the Lord Jesus Christ.`

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven & that are on earth, visible & invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him & for Him. And He is before all things & in Him all things consist. And He.....is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the pre-eminence.` (Col. 1: 16 - 18)

Good to look at what it means.
Pre-eminence - Gk. `proteno` meaning to be first in rank, & from `protos,` foremost in time, place, order, importance, chiefest, first.

I think that gives us a bigger picture than just `first.` Over all those realms, visible & invisible, heaven & earth, & authorities, the Lord Jesus Christ is pre-eminent, in rank, in place, in time, in importance.

Would love to hear your thoughts also on this, Abdicate.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Thanks for your Questions Marilyn
It's clear you love our Lord and have His glory as your motivation. One thing I notice though Marilyn is that in all the verses you site you appear not to have taken the context into account. In q 1 that verse is of course true but His authority is (in this dispensation of grace) that of our Intercessor. Yes, He is and always will be our Lord and King but He is at present our High Priest. In q2 Isa speaks of a corrupt earth and not an earth where the curse has been removed. Q3 these are the words of Nebuchadnezzar and he spoke according to the revelation he had received. Q4 this "speck of dust" has great value in the site of its creator and as such is held in His hand and plays a vital part in His eternal plan and purpose. Q5 this earth will have the curse of sin removed during The Lord's millennium reign and so will not be faulty. Q6 yes, this is a question that has puzzled me too. However, sin will be punished instantly then. Q7 He will be there to personally punish the beast and false prophet even though He could speak but a word and all would be done. It seems to be that as a man He lived, died and rose again. As a (glorifie) man He intercedes for us and as a man He will confirm His final victory and as a man He judges all men.
Thanks Marilyn

Hi @Seedsower,

How kind of you to see my motive. And thank you for taking the time to discuss each point with me. You have raised some good points, & I hope to clear up any misunderstanding.

Q.1. I agree that the Lord is our intercessor in this dispensation, however you will note in that scripture, Eph. 1: 21 that is says - `far above all…..not only in this age but also in that which is to come.`

Q. 2. I agree also that the Holy Spirit through Isaiah speaks of a corrupt earth. And this is in the Millennium as the prophet Zechariah also shows –

`And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem….If the family of Egypt will not come up & enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up…` (Zech. 14: 16 – 18)

Q.3. Yes, I agree that King Neb. spoke the revelation that he received. And as the Holy Spirit wrote His word we can know that there is a King of heaven.

Q. 4. I agree that this `speck of dust` is very important to the Lord, but that does not therefore mean He will move His eternal throne here. It is His authority that will be through Israel, I believe.

Q. 5. The curse of sin is not removed during the millennium, as death is the final enemy after the 1,000 years. Also see Zech. 14 concerning the plague.

Also it is only on God`s ` holy mountain` that the `wolf & lamb` lie down together, not the whole world as is often thought. (Isa. 65: 24 & 25)


Q. 6. We know that the `rod of iron` brings about consequences however I see that it takes a while to come into full effect - `no rain….` (Zech. 14: 18) which then leads to plagues etc.

Q. 7. I believe as you do that the Lord – God/man will have the final victory over all. We just see it differently as the where He will do this from.


Blessings, bro. Marilyn.

 

[Euphemia]

Hi @Euphemia,

Thank you for discussing this important truth with me. So let`s look at some scriptures that the Lord Almighty says concerning `dwelling.`

`Go & tell my servant David, "Thus says the Lord: "You shall not build me a house to dwell in. For I have not dwelt in a house since the time that I brought up Israel, even to this day, but have gone from tent to tent, & from one tabernacle to another.` (1 Chron. 17: 4 & 5)

`Then Solomon said, "The Lord said he would dwell in the dark cloud. But I have built you an exalted house, & a place for you to dwell forever." (2 Chron. 6: 1 & 2)

Solomon prayed, `Lord God of Israel, there is no God in heaven or on earth like you.....will God indeed dwell with men on earth? Behold heaven & the heaven of heavens cannot contain you; how much less this temple which I have built!

Yet regard the prayer of your servant.....that your eyes may be open towards this temple day & night, towards the place where you said you would put your name..." (2 Chron. 6: 1 & 2, 18 & 19)



So it looks to me like God uses that word `dwell` to mean that His presence is there, His blessing. It seems to me He does not mean that He will move His eternal throne or Himself to the earth. `Behold heaven & the heaven of heavens cannot contain you.` This is written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit so it is true.



Hope that clears up `dwelling.` Marilyn.

Scripture says that the City of God, the New Jerusalem will come down to Earth, and that God will dwell with us FOREVER.

 

[Marilyn C]

Scripture says that the City of God, the New Jerusalem will come down to Earth, and that God will dwell with us FOREVER.

Hi @Euphemia,

Actually it says -
`Then I, John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven FROM God,...` (Rev. 21: 2)

So we see that God has not `moved` but of course His presence, His authority & His blessing will be in that city.

blessings, Marilyn.

 

[Abdicate]

Hi @Abdicate,

I think you are referring to me saying, `it strikes at the very heart of the pre-eminence of the Lord Jesus Christ.`

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven & that are on earth, visible & invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him & for Him. And He is before all things & in Him all things consist. And He.....is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the pre-eminence.` (Col. 1: 16 - 18)

Good to look at what it means.
Pre-eminence - Gk. `proteno` meaning to be first in rank, & from `protos,` foremost in time, place, order, importance, chiefest, first.

I think that gives us a bigger picture than just `first.` Over all those realms, visible & invisible, heaven & earth, & authorities, the Lord Jesus Christ is pre-eminent, in rank, in place, in time, in importance.

Would love to hear your thoughts also on this, Abdicate.

Marilyn.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you want me to say. He's above all things, visible and invisible. He's in all things. And by Him, all things are held together. He's everything. Can't much more pre-eminence than that. Omniscient, omnipresent, and another omni I can't remember.

 

[Marilyn C]

I'm sorry, I don't know what you want me to say. He's above all things, visible and invisible. He's in all things. And by Him, all things are held together. He's everything. Can't much more pre-eminence than that. Omniscient, omnipresent, and another omni I can't remember.

Hi @Abdicate,

That`s great bro. I was not wanting anything but to lift up the name of Jesus.

Blessings, Marilyn.

 

[Euphemia]

Hi @Euphemia,

Actually it says -
`Then I, John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven FROM God,...` (Rev. 21: 2)

So we see that God has not `moved` but of course His presence, His authority & His blessing will be in that city.

blessings, Marilyn.

Read the next few verses.

 

[Marilyn C]

Read the next few verses.

Hi @Euphemia ,

I like that - read the next few verses.

`And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, & He will dwell with them, & they shall be His people, & God Himself will be with them & be their God.` (Rev. 21: 3)


So it is this phrase `He will dwell with them,` that I think you are seeing as God in `person` actually moving to the New Jerusalem to `live.` Please correct me if I am not saying it right. So let`s look at what God means by `dwelling` with His people.


`Go & tell my servant David, "Thus says the Lord: "You shall not build me a house to dwell in. For I have not dwelt in a house since the time that I brought up Israel, even to this day, but have gone from tent to tent, & from one tabernacle to another.` (1 Chron. 17: 4 & 5)


So here we see that God is referring to His presence (the glory cloud & the fiery pillar in those days), His authority & His blessings. All these are in the New Jerusalem & also through Israel as they rule in the millennium.

Marilyn.

 

[Complete]

Hello @Marilyn C,

We are all agreed that the Messiah will reign during the millennium, but will he reign from Jerusalem, or from heaven?

‘Ask of me,
and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance,
and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.’
(Psa 2:8,9)

‘For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor,
The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end,
upon the throne of David, and upon His kingdom,
to order it, and to establish it
with judgment and with justice
from henceforth even for ever.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.’
(Isa 9:6,7)

‘For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.’
(Isa 33:22)

‘Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand,
and His arm shall rule for Him:
behold, His reward is with Him,
and His work before Him.
He shall feed His flock like a shepherd:
He shall gather the lambs with His arm,
and carry them in His bosom,
and shall gently lead those that are with young.’
(Isa 40:10,11)

-------------------------------

* Yet Jeremiah 30:9 says,

‘But they shall serve the LORD their God,
and David their king,
whom I will raise up unto them.’
(Jer 30:9)

*Does Jeremiah 30:9, refer to David or to Christ (the Son of David)?

Look also at:-

‘Therefore will I save my flock,
and they shall no more be a prey;
and I will judge between cattle and cattle.
And I will set up one shepherd over them,
and he shall feed them, even my servant David;
he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
And I the LORD will be their God,
and my servant David a prince among them;
I the LORD have spoken it.’
(Eze 34:22-24)

‘And David my servant shall be king over them;
and they all shall have one shepherd:
they shall also walk in my judgments,
and observe my statutes, and do them.
And they shall dwell in the land
that I have given unto Jacob my servant,
wherein your fathers have dwelt;
and they shall dwell therein,
even they, and their children,
and their children's children for ever:
and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.’
(Eze 37:24,25)

* Could it be that Christ will rule from heaven, and that David will be His ‘vice regent’ as it were?

There is so much that I do not understand about end time events, and the chronology of those events, that I am not in a position to make sound judgements upon them. These are just what I have found, and put forward to be considered.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Major]

Hi @Major,
Sorry that you think we are arguing. I believe we are discussing an important topic as I said in the OP whether Jesus is on earth in the Millennium. I said I wondered if people have really thought this through & thus I said I am putting forth these questions for people to consider. I then went on to say that my desire was to exalt the Lord to the highest place & not bring Him down to our level.

I hope that refreshes your memory. Marilyn.

As I said. It has confused me. It seems to me that no matter what is presented from the Scriptures you reject them.
That says to me that you are going to contest (argue) anything outside of your opinion.

 

[CCW95A]

So here we see that God is referring to His presence (the glory cloud & the fiery pillar in those days), His authority & His blessings. All these are in the New Jerusalem & also through Israel as they rule in the millennium.

Rev 22:3.. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4.. And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

You are not getting it. The Lord God is not subject to time, or space as his physical was during his time on earth. Jesus can rule anywhere he wants without ever leaving his throne. Jesus Christ is ruling from his throne right now, but he is also living inside his saints without leaving his throne.

2Co 13:5.. Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

 

[Euphemia]

Hello @Marilyn C,

We are all agreed that the Messiah will reign during the millennium, but will he reign from Jerusalem, or from heaven?

‘Ask of me,
and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance,
and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.’
(Psa 2:8,9)

‘For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor,
The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end,
upon the throne of David, and upon His kingdom,
to order it, and to establish it
with judgment and with justice
from henceforth even for ever.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.’
(Isa 9:6,7)

‘For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.’
(Isa 33:22)

‘Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand,
and His arm shall rule for Him:
behold, His reward is with Him,
and His work before Him.
He shall feed His flock like a shepherd:
He shall gather the lambs with His arm,
and carry them in His bosom,
and shall gently lead those that are with young.’
(Isa 40:10,11)

-------------------------------

* Yet Jeremiah 30:9 says,

‘But they shall serve the LORD their God,
and David their king,
whom I will raise up unto them.’
(Jer 30:9)

*Does Jeremiah 30:9, refer to David or to Christ (the Son of David)?

Look also at:-

‘Therefore will I save my flock,
and they shall no more be a prey;
and I will judge between cattle and cattle.
And I will set up one shepherd over them,
and he shall feed them, even my servant David;
he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
And I the LORD will be their God,
and my servant David a prince among them;
I the LORD have spoken it.’
(Eze 34:22-24)

‘And David my servant shall be king over them;
and they all shall have one shepherd:
they shall also walk in my judgments,
and observe my statutes, and do them.
And they shall dwell in the land
that I have given unto Jacob my servant,
wherein your fathers have dwelt;
and they shall dwell therein,
even they, and their children,
and their children's children for ever:
and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.’
(Eze 37:24,25)

* Could it be that Christ will rule from heaven, and that David will be His ‘vice regent’ as it were?

There is so much that I do not understand about end time events, and the chronology of those events, that I am not in a position to make sound judgements upon them. These are just what I have found, and put forward to be considered.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Jesus will reign here on Earth.

 

[ATP]

Yes, He will be here in the Millennium.

Prewrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin Rosenthal
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/proph/prewra01.JPG

1. Antichrist signs peace treaty with Israel to begin the 70th week Isa 28:15 NIV, Isa 28:18 NIV, Isa 57:8-9 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, Rev 6:2 NIV, Rev 6:8 NIV.
2. The third temple (the holy place) is built Exo 26:33 NIV, Ez 40-48 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV..http://thewordonpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Ezekiels-Temple-Logos.png
3. The first 3.5 years are birth pains, the first four seals are open along with apostasy of Jews Dan 11:36-45 NIV, Matt 24:4-7, 2 Thess 2:3 NIV, Rev 6:1-8 NIV.
4. At the middle of the 70th week the abomination of desolation takes place in the holy place Exo 26:33 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, Dan 11:31 NIV, Dan 12:11 NIV, Matt 24:15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV, Rev 13:14-15 NIV.
5. Michael the angel, the restrainer is removed here Dan 12:1 NIV, 2 Thess 2:6-12 NIV, Rev 12:6-12 NIV.
6. Immediately after the abomination of desolation the fifth seal is open and the Great Tribulation begins, man's rebellion against God Rev 6:9-11 NIV.
7. This is right around where the two witnesses make their appearance and prophesy for 1,260 days Mal 4:5 NIV, Rev 11:2-3 NIV.
8. The last 3.5 years of the 70th week now begins.
9. Then the Great Tribulation is cut short around the middle of the last 3.5 years Matt 24:22 NIV.
10. Immediately after the Great Tribulation ends cosmic disturbances occur before the Day of the Lord begins Isa 13:10 NIV, Isa 34:4 NIV, Joel 2:30-31 NIV, Joel 3:14-15 NIV, Matt 24:29 NIV, Mark 13:24 NIV, Luke 21:25-28 NIV, Acts 2:19-20 NIV, 2 Pet 3:10 NIV, Rev 6:12-14 NIV.
11. The 144,000 are then sealed before the rapture, so they can enter the Day of the Lord without harm Rev 7:2-4 NIV.
12. Rapture occurs at 7th seal, after the Great Tribulation and on the Day of the Lord Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rev 7:14 NIV, Rev 8:1-5 NIV.
13. The Bema Seat of Christ is here Matt 16:27 NIV, Luke 14:14-15 NIV, 2 Cor 5:10 NIV, Rev 19:8-9 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV.
14. The Feast/Marriage Supper of the Lamb is also here Luke 14:14-15 NIV, Rev 7:9 NIV, Rev 19:1 NIV, Rev 19:9 NIV.
15. Then begins the Day of the Lord, the start of God's wrath of trumpets. The 5th trumpet will also last five months Rev 9:5 NIV.
16. At the end of the 70th week the beast will kill the two witnesses, but after 3.5 days they will come alive Rev 11:7-12 NIV.
17. Very few people will be left after the 70th week is complete Zech 13:8-9 NIV.
18. Jesus landing on the Mount of Olives is here Zech 9:14-17 NIV, Zech 10:1-12 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV, Zech 14:4 NIV, Mal 3:2-4 NIV, Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rom 11:26-27 NIV, Jude 1:14-15 NIV, Rev 19:11-21 NIV.
19. After the 70th week is complete the bowl judgments begin for 30 days Dan 12:11 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV.
20. Then the 45 days begin for cleansing of the Temple Dan 12:12 NIV, Zech 13:1-6 NIV.
21. After the 45 days are finished the 1,000 year millennium begins Isa 11:6-9 NIV, Isa 65:20 NIV, Rev 20:4-6 NIV.
22. Nonbelievers will also be a part of the 1,000 year millennium Zech 14:16-19 NIV.
23. After the 1,000 years are finished, the dead believers and nonbelievers that are left over will be judged Rev 20:11-15 NIV.
24. Then a New Heaven and a New Earth will appear making everything new Isa 65:17-25 NIV, Rev 21:1-8 NIV.
25. Lastly, Eden is restored in which we now live with Jesus Christ forever and ever. Amen Rev 22:1-5 NIV.

Side Note 1: The full seven years are never called "the tribulation period", rather the 70th week is the proper name to describe the seven years.

Side Note 2: The Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord are not the same event. The GT is man's rebellion against God, and the Day of the Lord is God's wrath against man. These two events are split in half in the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. The church will have to go through the first five seals and also the GT, but they will be raptured before the Day of the Lord begins, God's wrath of trumpets and bowls. The church will witness the signing of the peace treaty, the third temple built, the first four seals opening, the abomination of desolation, the two witnesses, the fifth seal opening, the GT of man's rebellion and the sixth seal of cosmic disturbances in the sun, moon and stars before they are raptured.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi @ATP,

I see you have given your overall view of the end times, however we are specifically discussing `whether the Lord is physically ruling on earth or in heaven in the millennium. So...your scripture/s to show why you believe He will be on earth?

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

As I said. It has confused me. It seems to me that no matter what is presented from the Scriptures you reject them.
That says to me that you are going to contest (argue) anything outside of your opinion.

Hi @Major,

Now you have been taught that the Lord will rule on earth by teachers (I think) using scriptures, & I have also been taught by teachers using scriptures to show that the Lord will be ruling from heaven. Thus it is important, I believe to discuss this topic.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Rev 22:3.. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4.. And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

You are not getting it. The Lord God is not subject to time, or space as his physical was during his time on earth. Jesus can rule anywhere he wants without ever leaving his throne. Jesus Christ is ruling from his throne right now, but he is also living inside his saints without leaving his throne.

2Co 13:5.. Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Hi @CCW95A,

I agree that the Lord Jesus Christ is ruling from His throne right now, at the right hand of the Father, as God`s word tells us. He is also in us BY HIS HOLY SPIRIT. He is not physically in us. This is what we are discussing, whether the Lord will leave His throne in the highest heavens & physically rule on earth in the millennium.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi @Complete,

I very timely word there. I agree & will also share what I believe.


Yes, the Lord sits & rule from king David`s throne, as does His regent, a man called David.

`But they shall serve the Lord their God & David their king, whom I will raise up for them.` (Jer. 30: 9)

So we have an interesting `problem` here. There are two thrones -

1. The throne of David on earth &

2. The throne of the King of kings in heaven, in the centre of 24 thrones.

Can our Lord fill both of these thrones simultaneously? We, of course, are convinced of His Deity, & that He indeed possess the attribute of omnipresence, but we are speaking of the God-Man. Could such a body be in more than one place at a time? Our Lord was seen after the resurrection in a number of different places, but there is no record that He appeared in more than one place at a time.

I believe that when our Lord took a human body & was made like unto His brethren, He accepted the limitations that were imposed by His doing that. In other words, I do not believe that He could fill the throne on earth, where He would be visible, tangible etc., & at the same time fill the throne in heaven as the King of kings & Lord of lords, & also be visible & tangible, etc.

Thus when we read in Jeremiah that there is a man David who will be the king, regent in Israel in the Millennium, then it becomes quite clear.

Marilyn.

 

[ATP]

Hi @ATP,

I see you have given your overall view of the end times, however we are specifically discussing `whether the Lord is physically ruling on earth or in heaven in the millennium. So...your scripture/s to show why you believe He will be on earth?

Marilyn.

Well, if He's on earth why wouldn't He be ruling.

 

[CCW95A]

Hi @CCW95A,

I agree that the Lord Jesus Christ is ruling from His throne right now, at the right hand of the Father, as God`s word tells us. He is also in us BY HIS HOLY SPIRIT. He is not physically in us. This is what we are discussing, whether the Lord will leave His throne in the highest heavens & physically rule on earth in the millennium.

Marilyn.

You are still using wrong terminology as Jesus does not have a "physical" body. The last Adam (Jesus) was made a "life" giving Spirit. (1 Cor 15:45) and yes that Spirit lives in us, not a copy, but the real thing.

 

[ATP]

You are still using wrong terminology as Jesus does not have a "physical" body. The last Adam (Jesus) was made a "life" giving Spirit. (1 Cor 15:45) and yes that Spirit lives in us, not a copy, but the real thing.

Yes, His spirit lives in us but Jesus did have a body on earth. If He didn't He wouldn't have been able to be a carpenter.