So when did John the Baptist die (according to you?)
John The Baptist And The Harlot Of Revelation...
- Thread starter The Town Crier
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Mr. Crier believes that the Revelation of Jesus Christ was given to John the Baptist while he was in the wilderness before he started his own ministry. He was never in Patmos, or Greece, nor had any reason to be! There was no gospel message at that point--nor ministry!
So, Revelation 1:9 is a problem for the OP. We can drive a transport through that big hole!
So, Revelation 1:9 is a problem for the OP. We can drive a transport through that big hole!
Ah ok. That doesn't even make sense. So once again someone picks and chooses what part of the bible they believe and don't believe.
Hey Euph- where did you find John the Baptists travel log or itinerary? How do you know where he was or wasnt? The gospel message was prophesied all through the Old Testament so yes there was an expectation of both John and Jesus coming on the scene...and it happened exactly as the Old Testament said it would. There is only one person that scripture says was given the purpose of revealing Jesus- John the Baptist. Again, Revelation is what...the Revelation of Jesus Christ. If you quit using the world's teachings and compare scripture with scripture everything lines up perfect. I don't know why that is such a struggle for you to understand...
TC
ummm- if you read the PDF, you will see that I didn't 'pick a certain part' I compared what John and Jesus both said...and they line up with each other, so I trust what the Lord says over what any man thinks he knows. If you don't read the PDF why waste your time posting since you haven't a clue what scripture proof I am referring to( Euphemia doesn't either because he didn't read it) so don't base your posts on what he thinks is right or wrong. Go read it and judge for yourself - don't just assume that I cherry picked a scripture to use. There is so much evidence that John the Baptist is the prophet sent from God to bare record of Jesus, that it cannot be disputed. Scripture lines up perfect when put together correctly...
TC
He died just when scripture says he did- in prison beheaded. He received Revelation before then. How do you think he knew who Jesus before hand and that the wrath of God was coming soon? See when you understand John the baptists purpose, and compare with what Jesus said of him, it all clicks and Revelation lines up with what John and Jesus both said was about to take place...
The PDF explains all this. You could save us both a lot of back and forth by reading it first...
TC
You're own conclusions are based on no proof. What you present are useless wranglings.
1 Timothy 6:4-5; 20-21 (NLT)
4 Anyone who teaches something different is arrogant and lacks understanding. Such a person has an unhealthy desire to quibble over the meaning of words. This stirs up arguments ending in jealousy, division, slander, and evil suspicions. 5 These people always cause trouble. Their minds are corrupt, and they have turned their backs on the truth. To them, a show of godliness is just a way to become wealthy.
20 Timothy, guard what God has entrusted to you. Avoid godless, foolish discussions with those who oppose you with their so-called knowledge. 21 Some people have wandered from the faith by following such foolishness.
Yes SHE did.
It makes no difference who wrote Revelation. You want to attach some spiritual importance to it. Revelation is unchanged in its content and meaning.
Too much seeking for esoterica makes a person strange and puffed up with arrogance, offering pdf's for all and sundry to read and go, "Ooh" and, "Aah". That's not for me.
You say that yet you didn't even read the PDF so how would you know what I 'presented'...? I certainly don't desire to 'qibble over ' scripture as that leads to ungodliness. I simply presented a small writing for people to read and give feedback on but you chose not to even read it...so why waste your time posting? Anyway, I want to have a real dialogue about the PDF so unless you read it , I am not going to converse with you anymore...it isn't fruitful.
Sincerely
TC
my apologies...I did not realize the 'she' part. There is much spiritual importance to it because it completely affects the outcome and timing of Revelation depending on who wrote it and when it was written. If it was written before 70 A.D. it changes EVERYTHING! It also makes scripture much more consistent. Anyway, I have said all I am going to say to you unless you read the PDF. I would have just posted it but it was too many words to fit in a post so I put it in a PDF form to make it able to be read. Please read it or refrain from posting...thank you in advance.
Sincerely,
TC
John the Baptist was beheaded in Matt 14. The first time the word "church" is used is in Matt 16. So how could John the Baptist write Revelation when the concept hadn't yet been established yet? And how could John the Baptist write to churches that didn't exist yet - by name? I'm guessing the ultimate agenda of this thread is a preterist's end.
John the Baptist was killed by Herod
John the Apostle was taken prisoner and sent to the isle of Patmos:
Revelation 1:9 (KJV)
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
So if I were to believe anything other than the stated tradition, I'd more likely believe that this was written by another man also named John. But it certainly was not John the Baptist. In the end, what difference does it make other than to push a preterist's theology?
Now this brings up another point I've brought up in the past: the 66 books we call the word of God was decided upon by debate, just like this forum debates everything. There is information that would fill the Library of Congress on information about who/how/why we have these 66 books. In fact John, hehehe, says that the world couldn't contain the books that could be written just about what Jesus did. So what is one to do? Well, study these verses and decide for themselves.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Peter 1:19-21 (KJV)
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
What do these say to us as followers of Christ? We MUST use the Holy Spirit to determine the truth. But I find so many that claim themselves to be "christians" don't have a clue Who He is or what His job is. Sure they can quote scriptures but do they really know Him and obey Him? The evidence is clearly no.
John the Baptist was killed by Herod
John the Apostle was taken prisoner and sent to the isle of Patmos:
Revelation 1:9 (KJV)
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
So if I were to believe anything other than the stated tradition, I'd more likely believe that this was written by another man also named John. But it certainly was not John the Baptist. In the end, what difference does it make other than to push a preterist's theology?
Now this brings up another point I've brought up in the past: the 66 books we call the word of God was decided upon by debate, just like this forum debates everything. There is information that would fill the Library of Congress on information about who/how/why we have these 66 books. In fact John, hehehe, says that the world couldn't contain the books that could be written just about what Jesus did. So what is one to do? Well, study these verses and decide for themselves.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Peter 1:19-21 (KJV)
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
What do these say to us as followers of Christ? We MUST use the Holy Spirit to determine the truth. But I find so many that claim themselves to be "christians" don't have a clue Who He is or what His job is. Sure they can quote scriptures but do they really know Him and obey Him? The evidence is clearly no.
Me thinks you guys are just going round and round and getting nowhere.
TC, I have not and will not read 18 pages of a pdf.....................not going to happen.
It is not sound exegesis or exposition or anything else to build a doctrinal stance on the repetition of phrases alone.........not good.
Euphemia, You make a little too much on the idea that John 'X' was exiled on patmos. There exists only extra Biblical material that suggest this contrary to the Greek of the Text. You see John was on Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
He was not there 'because of'..... but rather on behalf of.....That is what the Greek actually says, that is how the various translators have rendered the Greek.
Had he been on Patmos 'because of'..that would strongly suggest exile or imprisonment. However 'for'.... strongly suggests representing/presenting etc. Patmos of the day was indeed a place of exile, however even the exilees there needed to have the gospel preached to them.
Just something to think about
TC, I have not and will not read 18 pages of a pdf.....................not going to happen.
It is not sound exegesis or exposition or anything else to build a doctrinal stance on the repetition of phrases alone.........not good.
Euphemia, You make a little too much on the idea that John 'X' was exiled on patmos. There exists only extra Biblical material that suggest this contrary to the Greek of the Text. You see John was on Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
He was not there 'because of'..... but rather on behalf of.....That is what the Greek actually says, that is how the various translators have rendered the Greek.
Had he been on Patmos 'because of'..that would strongly suggest exile or imprisonment. However 'for'.... strongly suggests representing/presenting etc. Patmos of the day was indeed a place of exile, however even the exilees there needed to have the gospel preached to them.
Just something to think about
I chose to read it.
If that's what you think, then I reject it even more.
Give us a break, here. "For"---the GREEK, "dia"---means "because of" also, and we know from those reliable extra-biblical sources, that John was exiled to Patmos because of his testimony of Jesus Christ.
You are only regarding the English. Think about that.
Rev 1:9 (ESV 2011)
I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 1:9 (KJV)
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
- Original: διά
- Transliteration: Dia
- Phonetic: dee-ah'
- Definition:
1. through
a. of place
2. through 1. with
2. in
b. of time 2. in
1. throughout
2. during
c. of means 2. during
1. by
2. by the means of
2. by the means of
a. the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
- Origin: a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act1. by reason of
2. on account of
3. because of for this reason
4. therefore
5. on this account
2. on account of
3. because of for this reason
4. therefore
5. on this account
- TDNT entry: 03:05,1
- Part(s) of speech: Preposition
Pick your truth...
Calvin I agree with you ...I already said I was not interested in conversing anymore with Euph because she had not read the PDF Having said that-Obviously you judged the PDF without reading as well ( its only 8 pages not 18) Nonetheless We are to compare scripture to scripture to see what God's word says. And I do just that...comparing all the text about John the Baptist with what Jesus said...it becomes perfectly clear who John was and what he was sent to Patmos to do...For instance- How is it that John the baptist knew to call the Pharisees a 'generation of vipers' BEFORE Jesus ever started his ministry:
Johns words:
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Later Jesus calls them the same thing:
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Again, John knew they were a generation of vipers before Jesus began to preach-
How is it possible that john knew they were a 'generation of vipers' before Jesus called them that? Because he was given this information beforehand...He was already given the testimony of Jesus at Patmos and was sent to prepare the way! John was prophesying what God had told him to.That is the only way he would have known the words of the Lord ahead of time.
Here is another example...John the 'apostle' did not write in the same style/words like what is written in Revelation, but John 'the Baptist' did;
Luk 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
Luk 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Luk 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Read Revelation(and many Old Testament places) and you can see John the Baptists speech is all about the coming of Jesus and His wrath. If you compare the writing of Revelation with what John the Baptist taught and with what Jesus and Gabriel the angel both said of John, things begin to add up rather quickly and accurately when looking at the history of Israel..There is much more evidence...but chew on that for awhile.
TC
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Jesus knew what language was spoken before by John, His cousin, and He continued it. He is God, remember? Do you forget that John the Baptist was empowered by the heavy anointing of the Holy Spirit?
What difference does it make? The message of Revelation is not altered one iota.
What difference does it make? The message of Revelation is not altered one iota.
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