Jutta From Berlin, Germany

[KingJ]

I have read many books next to the Bible. Under this also books which consider Jesus Christ a Christen differently. For me a certain picture has developed from this.
Historical Jesus has to be affirmed and honored absolutely, he was far ahead of his time anyway. I have, however, problems with Jesus as a son of God. And why want I to say to you also.
Where a man was everywhere in history of religion, described as Erlöser etc.; he always had the same qualities and historical backgrounds:
Born by a Virgin
Baptized
Had Disciples
Taught revolutionary doctrines in his time
Died a violent death at the cross or something else.
Identical, on Horus, Mithras, Krishna; or as all of them were called.
For me Jesus Christ is an outstanding person but not the son of God.
I know that many cannot understand this here in the forum. They could because of my statement verbally attack and sentence me because of this perhaps; but this is the result of my researches.

I said the same thing about Jesus before I got saved. That is why scripture says 1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. and Peter's account in Matt 16, 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

As you mentioned Jesus has had a tremendous impact. Have you read 'Napoleons' explanation of Jesus being divine? (well worth the read) http://www.thesacredpage.com/2008/04/napoleons-proof-for-divinity-of-jesus.html.

I have great respect for all who ''approve'' of the teachings of Jesus. Love neighbour, turn left cheek and feeding your enemy are no easy feats. Since you approve of them, do you practice them? I respect many 'God fearing' people. But I believe James 4:8 completely. A truly God fearing person will have an encounter with God and get the same revelation Peter did. If you don't then the question I pose to you is what Paul says in Phil 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Do you do that? Do you get on your knees in fear and trembling before God and justify yourself to Him? I did that and my life changed. We ''think'' we are ok. But we are not.

Then on sacrifice for sins for those sessions of self judgement, have you read Heb 10? Jesus causes offence with all religions when He says, John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Either Jesus was mad or He was the Son of God. He never gained anything for His teaching (no reason to lie) and no person will die selflessly for people who hate him.

As for the Jesus vs Horus myth http://www.jonsorensen.net/2012/10/25/horus-manure-debunking-the-jesushorus-connection/.

You see Jutta, you, having been in church KNOW what scripture says. There are many teachings by Jesus, Paul and the prophets that you simply cannot ignore having read them. Anyone who has heard the truth of scripture is in a corner. They either accept it completely or reject it completely. Nobody having heard the gospel can sit on the fence. We can say we do, but we know our heart. Many 'ex-Christians' avoid Phil 2:12.

Many of us have been guilty of backsliding in some way, fortunately for us all...as long as we are alive there is hope to come back to Him. Nobody living is beyond hope! and if you don't think you need to repent, get on your knees in fear and trembling before a loving and holy God and tell Him that.

 

[Brother_Mike_V]

Everybody is worshiping / being indoctrinated / has faith in something....

Typically I find that there are two kinds of people-people that wish to rely on / believe in / worship themselves-or- people looking to latch onto something / someone else to make themselves feel better. Are there "Christians" that fall into both of those categories? Absolutely.

But then there are the "saved"-those who have truly accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and allowed the Holy Spirit to guide them at least partially towards God. These folks are separated from the world-like it or not. Some still try to fit in and become awkward, some still get it all wrong and others continue to allow God to ripen / mature their spirit with the Spirit.

Saved folks are still human-and unsaved folks think they are supposed to be not human somehow. In my short experience as a Christian having met all kinds of folks-there's something sweet about a person who is truly walking toward God.

 

[Jutta H.]

can you give an example why he was far ahead of his time?

why i ask, am interested in your point of view.....
given that i am biased, i continue to be overwhelmed with his teachings....

A topic would be the non-violence. In Europe gets tempted; preaching a Christian body of thought by non-violence; some Christian groups are radicalized in the USA. They blow up abortion clinical complexes into the air, kill abortion doctors and homosexuals; and think, that they did, "God work".
This is sick!
You do not believe me?
Here reconciles examples a Protestant clergyman told this once in a pamphlet:

Ronald E. Gay, a 55-year-old man, angry for being teased about his last name, entered the Back Street Café in Roanoke, Virginia, a
local gathering place for lesbians and gays just a few miles from Lynchburg. Confident that God’s Word supported his tragic plan of
action, Mr. Gay shouted, “I am a Christian soldier, working for my Lord.” Claiming that “Jesus does not want these people in his heaven,” he shot seven innocent gay and lesbian people. One of them, Danny Overstreet, died instantly. Two years later, others still suffer from their physical and psychological wounds.
Three years ago in the Shasta County jail, Matthew Williams explained to his mother why he and his brother, Tyler, murdered a gay couple, Gary Matson and Winfield Mowder, in their home near Sacramento, California. “I had to obey God’s law rather than man’s law,” he said. “I didn’t want to do this. I felt I was supposed to. I have followed a higher law… I just plan to defend myself from the
Scriptures.”
When Matthew Shepard was killed, a pastor in North Carolina published an open letter regarding the trial of Aaron McKinney
that read: “Gays are under the death penalty. His blood is guilty before God (Lev. 20:13). If a Person kills a gay, the gay’s blood is upon the gay and not upon the hands of the person doing the killing.

Source: http://www.psa91.com/pdf/whatthebiblesays.pdf


The parish priest quoted Leviticus; to prove that homosexuals stand under the death penalty. Strange that he has forgotten to mention that also disobedient children were punished with the death in the OT. Or eat pork as well as wear clothes from mixed fibers. And this does not apply to Christians either any more as a law!

 

[Jutta H.]

I would like to tell you a story. It is a true story. The story which I experienced with my sister Gina.
Gina emigrated to the USA, married an American. Live in Oklahoma. A BA Christian (BA stands for BORN AGAIN). When I had my transsexual CO, she called me, threw me Bible quotations to the head which had to do something with homosexuality. She refused to have contact further to me; unless, I would become normal (a man) again.
The contact was ended in 1992 and is not since then any more.
My sister has five children of four different fathers to which she also has no more contact. Because:
The oldest son Michael is addicted to drugs and no Christian.
Her daughter Diana,is bisexual and cohabits with a woman (for 10 years); and is no Christian.
Second eldest son, Thomas, she was not anyway loving him and he is not a Christian.
Her third oldest son Christian sat as a teenager because of murder in prison (Gay bashing) and he is not a Christian.
She exhausted only her youngest son, Steve, to the USA because he always did what she wanted. He is a Christian and marries the daughter of a parish priest.
Would Jesus describe anybody as a Christian so?

 

[KingJ]

If she turns the left cheek, feeds her enemies, looks after the elderly and widows...she is a Christian James 1:27. The state of her children is sad, but I am sure you know that everyone beyond the age of understanding stands alone before God on judgement day...as they chose to rebel against God.

Saved folks are still human-and unsaved folks think they are supposed to be not human somehow. In my short experience as a Christian having met all kinds of folks-there's something sweet about a person who is truly walking toward God.

Mike, I had a dream this morning about walking through a park and spotting all the sweet Christains amongst the unsaved. You hit the nail on the head here. Christians are full of honey no matter how deep you scratch them.

 

[aha]

A topic would be the non-violence.

Sorry, but I did not expected that, or maybe I expected too much, that is: for saying someone is "he was far ahead of his time"

Non-violence, non-retaliation is a usual theme of ancient teachers, philosophers, nothing new…. Buddha, etc… they are teaching being PASSIVE...

imo:
Love is always ACTIVE…. It is never passive…..

 

[Jutta H.]

Sorry, but I did not expected that, or maybe I expected too much, that is: for saying someone is "he was far ahead of his time"

Non-violence, non-retaliation is a usual theme of ancient teachers, philosophers, nothing new…. Buddha, etc… they are teaching being PASSIVE...

imo:
Love is always ACTIVE…. It is never passive…..

I was questioned about the differences between European and American Christians. And this is the answer. I also could have taken another topic: Intolerance and arrogance.
European Christians are never so arrogant like many American Christians whom I know. The latter ones think always to be in the possession of the only and perfect truth. And speaking often garbage, like Pat Robertson, Doctor Dobson or Jerry Falwell do.

 

[KingJ]

The parish priest quoted Leviticus; to prove that homosexuals stand under the death penalty. Strange that he has forgotten to mention that also disobedient children were punished with the death in the OT. Or eat pork as well as wear clothes from mixed fibers. And this does not apply to Christians either any more as a law!

A council of elders would judge an action before sentence was carried out. A disobedient kid had to be disrespectful / rebellious to the extreme and after warnings before he came close to ex-communication or death. Homosexuality on the other hand was rather simple to judge for the panel of elders.

If you are confused on OT scripture just read the NT. Rom 1:26, 27 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 1 Cor 6:9-10 / 1 Tim 1:9-10 and Jude 1:7. As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

 

[Jutta H.]

If you are confused on OT scripture just read the NT. Rom 1:26, 27 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 1 Cor 6:9-10 / 1 Tim 1:9-10 and Jude 1:7. As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

You make the mistake; which many religious people do in all religions. You pick something and do not care about the language, textual and historical background.
At first once: What is the topic of roman chapter 1? Are these the homosexuals? No! The topic of romans chapter 1 is; that Paul complains about it; that the Roman Christians have left the God of the Christians and had turned to heathen gods. Yes, that they made themselves to Gods. This already gets alone clear if you read the WHOLE 1st chapter.
What then was it looking like of Paul at the moment? What was regarded as "normal" in the world? What did Paul fight? And primarily why?
And we come to the last point now. Paul says something of "natural" and "unnatural" here. Do you know what the greek words are for this? How they were understood at that time? How they were translated?
Here reconciles links to it:

http://www.gaychristian101.com/Romans-1.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joel-l-watts/bible-homosexuality_b_3612634.html
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs...-bible-really-still-says-about-homosexuality/
In it (last link) you can found this Statement:

The longest biblical passage on male-male sex is Romans 1:26-27: “Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another.”
The Greek term para physin has been translated unnatural; it should read atypical or unusual. In the technical sense, yes, the Stoic philosophers did use para physin to mean unnatural, but this term also had a widespread popular meaning. It is this latter meaning that informs Paul’s writing. It carries no ethical condemnation.
Compare the passage on male-male sex to Romans 11:24. There, Paul applies the term para physin to God. God grafted the Gentiles into the Jewish people, a wild branch into a cultivated vine. Not your standard practice! An unusual thing to do — atypical, nothing more. The anti-gay “unnatural” hullabaloo rests on a mistranslation.
Besides, Paul used two other words to describe male-male sex: dishonorable (1:24, 26) and unseemly (1:27). But for Paul, neither carried ethical weight. In 2 Corinthians 6:8 and 11:21, Paul says that even he was held in dishonor — for preaching Christ. Clearly, these words merely indicate social disrepute, not truly unethical behavior.

 

[KingJ]

You make the mistake; which many religious people do in all religions. You pick something and do not care about the language, textual and historical background.

You don't need to convince me. Get on your knees in fear and trembling before God and tell Him that Greek texts, context and historical background make the OT and NT verses irrelevant. Did you miss me quoting Phil 2:12?

I was in sexual sin before I got saved. You will never convince me that it did not upset God. It is an extreme lust of the flesh and you know that. Something else is motivating you to visit here. I have picked up the same spirit with atheists. Something that comes from a psychopathic desire to spew tripe amongst God fearing people with no fear of Mark 9:42

I am done. Goodbye.

 

[aha]

I was questioned about the differences between European and American Christians. And this is the answer. I also could have taken another topic: Intolerance and arrogance.
European Christians are never so arrogant like many American Christians whom I know. The latter ones think always to be in the possession of the only and perfect truth. And speaking often garbage, like Pat Robertson, Doctor Dobson or Jerry Falwell do.

Am not sure if we understand each other??
..... to repeat as i see it:

Jutta: Historical Jesus has to be affirmed and honored absolutely, he was far ahead of his time anyway.

Aha: can you give an example why he was far ahead of his time?

Jutta: A topic would be the non-violence.

Aha: Non-violence, non-retaliation is a usual theme of ancient teachers, philosophers, nothing new

Jutta: I was questioned about the differences between European and American Christians. And this is the answer. I also could have taken another topic: Intolerance and arrogance.

Note:
What I meant by “nothing new” is that teaching non-violence is not something that is worthy for someone to be called “far ahead of his time”.

Thanks for the answer... although if you like to continue discussion, am fine with it.....
...although not it the direction you seem want to drive the discussion with, complaint with arrogant Christians?

there are arrogant people: Christians, Moslems, Buddhists... and most likely, there are arrogant people who happen to be a Wicca as well.

 

[HisWinterRose]

 

[Jutta H.]

I was in sexual sin before I got saved. You will never convince me that it did not upset God. It is an extreme lust of the flesh and you know that. Something else is motivating you to visit here. I have picked up the same spirit with atheists. Something that comes from a psychopathic desire to spew tripe amongst God fearing people with no fear of Mark 9:42

It is not a sin to be transsexual. Be homosexual, also! Who does not take into account the textual and historical background, does not understand the text of Bible, Thora or Koran. And be caught in his prejudices.

 

[Jutta H.]

Thanks for the answer... although if you like to continue discussion, am fine with it.....
...although not it the direction you seem want to drive the discussion with, complaint with arrogant Christians?

there are arrogant people: Christians, Moslems, Buddhists... and most likely, there are arrogant people who happen to be a Wicca as well.

Aha,
I am not arrogant but know only more as the average person because knowledge is enormously important to me. And you are right: there are arrogant people everywhere; even in the tea party movement!

 

[Jutta H.]

Rose, I love this pic! Because the rose is the flower of the Goddess.

 

[aha]

because knowledge is enormously important to me.

That is good.

Although i likely to conlclude that then that it was a borrowed phrase you said "far ahead of his time”.
That is, it does not come from your own personal observation, learning… but from other people.

Be careful then, we are all student of life, we choose our teacher well.

I enjoy reading eastern philosophy, how ancient people on their own try to seek the way, the truth, the life.
I realize ancient (even modern) teachers, philosophers, they are not sure of themselves as well.
They always have a disclaimer of what they teach.

The Buddha said he does not have the answer, seek the truth yourself.
Confucius acknowledge that the uneducated man does have wisdom that the educated man does not realize.

What am trying to say : we are all student of life, we choose our teacher well.

The truth will set us free.
Free from doubt, free from insecurity to ask if one is fine, socially acceptable.

Nothing to offer, nothing to hide,,, just being thankful of the grace, of the blessings.

I wish you well then... copy paste from google translate : )

i wünsche Ihnen alles Gute

 

[Panda]

Unless something has changed, the rule for this site has always been a "Christian only" place. There are other places where Christians and non-Christians can mix and debate, but this was always intended to be a place of solitude for Christians to support each other ("A Quiet Place to Rest"). I'm sure you have a place that is "Wiccan Only" or even "LGBT Only", so you should understand. As such, it is likely that your account will be disabled sooner or later. If that does happen, please understand that it is not meant to be a persecution, it would just mean that this isn't the place for you. Since I'm mostly in and out lately, it is possible that this rule has changed, so I'm not going to end this right now.

However, I do ask that you be respectful to those here and do not attack what we believe for however long you are here. By coming here, you already know there are going to be some that basically hate how you are living your life and will not appreciate that you are coming here to flaunt it. While I respect that you want to learn, I also ask for your respect of our beliefs.

And yes...yes there are many, many arrogant Wiccans, just as there are many, many friendly ones. The same seems to be true of all people, and as far as I can tell is generally unconnected to any particular religious belief.

 

[Jeffin]

What @Banarenth is saying is that we love you but we cannot allow unBiblical discussions especially those that intend to promote sins. We were all once sinners but now we are saved by the blood of Jesus. As sons and also as servants of God, we stand together for holiness and against impurity of all nature.

You are always welcome to continue the discussion with us privately. Thank you.

 

[Jutta H.]

Unless something has changed, the rule for this site has always been a "Christian only" place. There are other places where Christians and non-Christians can mix and debate, but this was always intended to be a place of solitude for Christians to support each other ("A Quiet Place to Rest"). I'm sure you have a place that is "Wiccan Only" or even "LGBT Only", so you should understand. As such, it is likely that your account will be disabled sooner or later.

I only had talked about my background because this is a thread where everyone shall introduce himself. Everybody is not a Christian here. Not everybody is of the same opinion. All of us have a background, a history which had formed us. And I am not a Christia but a Wicca. And as well I am not heterosexual but lesbian and was transsexual.
To be able to understand people, one must know their background first; and collecting them there where they are.

If that does happen, please understand that it is not meant to be a persecution, it would just mean that this isn't the place for you. Since I'm mostly in and out lately, it is possible that this rule has changed, so I'm not going to end this right now.

I came into this forum to talk with Christians. I have questions due to the knowledge I have what acquired. I would like to understand, not to condemn or to take conflicts to the forum.

However, I do ask that you be respectful to those here and do not attack what we believe for however long you are here. By coming here, you already know there are going to be some that basically hate how you are living your life and will not appreciate that you are coming here to flaunt it. While I respect that you want to learn, I also ask for your respect of our beliefs.

I do not attack any faith I would have neither the right nor the knowledge to this. But I try considerably to make, that there is not only a Bible interpretation. That one shall not read the Bible like a normal book. This one the historical background; and must take a textual connection into account. Some Bible translations are good, others rather not (e.g. the New World Translation of the JW, or the German Elberfelder Bible).

And yes...yes there are many, many arrogant Wiccans, just as there are many, many friendly ones. The same seems to be true of all people, and as far as I can tell is generally unconnected to any particular religious belief.

A friendly parish priest, by the way a former JW, said once:
Where people are, there is humanize and we can be glad if it does not get fiendish!".
He was right.

 

[Jutta H.]

What @Banarenth is saying is that we love you but we cannot allow unBiblical discussions especially those that intend to promote sins. We were all once sinners but now we are saved by the blood of Jesus. As sons and also as servants of God, we stand together for holiness and against impurity of all nature.

You are always welcome to continue the discussion with us privately. Thank you.

I have already understood him correctly. Don't worry!
But I do not open advertising here for sins I only show; that there are also other interpretations of the Bible. And this telling something else to facts (original language) as some translations.
Has somebody of yours the excellent collected books published by Kittel?
The "theological dictionary of the new testament"? If yes, hee should look up once; what there is to read about romans 1:25, 26; and all the other verses, which allegedly describes homosexuality.He will be astonished. Kittel's dictionary is the standard work for clergymen in the USA.
If somebody would read what stands there, his viewpoint would possibly change regarding homosexuality.