Learning Genesis

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TubbyTubby said:
I was asked what my faith system is, and I don't have one. If you have evidence, you don't need faith to allow you to believe that evidence.
Or, in other words, faith substitutes emotion for evidence.

I don't need faith to know that there are at least 67 moons orbiting Jupiter because there is evidence for that, and I look at the larger ones quite often with my own eyes.

If there is something that I don't have evidence for (what caused the big bang for instance) then I have to admit to myself that I don't know what caused the big bang. What I don't do is put an answer there purely based on faith and say it is true. My mind simply doesn't work that way.

Clearly, this is where you and I differ. I understand that you use faith to give you answers where you have no evidence or tangible proof, no matter how I try to think about it I can't allow my brain to deceive itself (or my brain won't allow it I suppose).
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BUT...........you still have not addressed the question posted in comment #141!!!

All of this food talk, and other stuff has once again clouded the bottom line.

WHOM do YOU say the Jesus is?????
 
Major said:
BUT...........you still have not addressed the question posted in comment #141!!!

All of this food talk, and other stuff has once again clouded the bottom line.

WHOM do YOU say the Jesus is?????
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I thought I had answered it, at least in terms that I can comprehend. We clearly operate at different states of understanding (not better or worse, just different).

You will need to try and imagine yourself in my position and word the question differently for me to try and answer it in a way that you are looking for.
 
TubbyTubby said:
I was asked what my faith system is, and I don't have one. If you have evidence, you don't need faith to allow you to believe that evidence.
Or, in other words, faith substitutes emotion for evidence.

I don't need faith to know that there are at least 67 moons orbiting Jupiter because there is evidence for that, and I look at the larger ones quite often with my own eyes.

If there is something that I don't have evidence for (what caused the big bang for instance) then I have to admit to myself that I don't know what caused the big bang. What I don't do is put an answer there purely based on faith and say it is true. My mind simply doesn't work that way.

Clearly, this is where you and I differ. I understand that you use faith to give you answers where you have no evidence or tangible proof, no matter how I try to think about it I can't allow my brain to deceive itself (or my brain won't allow it I suppose).
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I suspect that faith plays some part in everyone's beliefs. For example, science cannot yet explain everything, but a person can have faith that there is a measurable explanation for everything, even in the current absence of evidence.

For example, I took a class called The Philosophy of Religion when I was in university, and the professor was an atheist who was married to a Christian. He told us a story of a time when he suffered from a reoccurring back injury. One evening while brushing his teeth, he leaned over the sink and his back seized up completely. He was in terrible pain, and could not move. His wife suggested that he pray about it, and in desperation, he did. When he'd finished praying, he was able to stand up straight without pain. His wife, of course, tried to convince him that this experience was evidence of God's healing, but he told us that even though he couldn't explain how he was healed, he managed to hold onto his pride, because he had faith (he used the word "faith") that if enough study was committed to understanding what happened, a rational explanation could be found. To him, it's not a matter of whether or not one has faith, but where you choose to place it, and for what reasons. He was proud of his faith and believed it was well-placed. As a Christian, so do I.

I can't say whether or not he actually experienced a miracle, but I will submit to you that his faith, in that instance where he felt on the cusp of being proven wrong, substituted emotion for evidence.

Can anyone be entirely without faith, or only have reasons (good or bad) for where they place their faith? Just something to think about.
 
Roads said:
I suspect that faith plays some part in everyone's beliefs. For example, science cannot yet explain everything, but a person can have faith that there is a measurable explanation for everything, even in the current absence of evidence.

For example, I took a class called The Philosophy of Religion when I was in university, and the professor was an atheist who was married to a Christian. He told us a story of a time when he suffered from a reoccurring back injury. One evening while brushing his teeth, he leaned over the sink and his back seized up completely. He was in terrible pain, and could not move. His wife suggested that he pray about it, and in desperation, he did. When he'd finished praying, he was able to stand up straight without pain. His wife, of course, tried to convince him that this experience was evidence of God's healing, but he told us that even though he couldn't explain how he was healed, he managed to hold onto his pride, because he had faith (he used the word "faith") that if enough study was committed to understanding what happened, a rational explanation could be found. To him, it's not a matter of whether or not one has faith, but where you choose to place it, and for what reasons. He was proud of his faith and believed it was well-placed. As a Christian, so do I.

I can't say whether or not he actually experienced a miracle, but I will submit to you that his faith, in that instance where he felt on the cusp of being proven wrong, substituted emotion for evidence.

Can anyone be entirely without faith, or only have reasons (good or bad) for where they place their faith? Just something to think about.
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How refreshing, an honest atheist! The truth is that some will not believe no matter what, and had rather die in pride than to be alive in Christ. This is why the element of fear is needed for some to be saved. The pride of man, demands fear as its only solution. The humble and weak walk into the Kingdom without effort, but for a person of pride its like a camel going through the eye of a needle.
 
TubbyTubby said:
I thought I had answered it, at least in terms that I can comprehend. We clearly operate at different states of understanding (not better or worse, just different).

You will need to try and imagine yourself in my position and word the question differently for me to try and answer it in a way that you are looking for.
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Either you think that Jesus was a lunatic,
a Liar, or the Lord.

Why is that such a hard decision for you to make?

You have made yourself come across as an "intellectual" and that you have intellectual concerns with the Bible and with God.

I say NO!

You have a SIN problem my friend.

I do not know what it is, but there it is....SIN.
 
Major said:
Either you think that Jesus was a lunatic,
a Liar, or the Lord.

Why is that such a hard decision for you to make?

You have made yourself come across as an "intellectual" and that you have intellectual concerns with the Bible and with God.

I say NO!

You have a SIN problem my friend.

I do not know what it is, but there it is....SIN.
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Ah, I didn't realise it was a choice of those 3 options. Can I ask why does it have to be one of those? Why not add Plumber, nobody or preacher to the options?

"You have made yourself come across as an "intellectual"

And what exactly do you mean by that statement? I'm just here asking questions, I never announced to anyone that I was of superior intelligence. I really don't understand why you would say such a thing. This is how I normally write in forums or emails, is there a problem with my writing?
 
TubbyTubby said:
Ah, I didn't realise it was a choice of those 3 options. Can I ask why does it have to be one of those? Why not add Plumber, nobody or preacher to the options?

"You have made yourself come across as an "intellectual"

And what exactly do you mean by that statement? I'm just here asking questions, I never announced to anyone that I was of superior intelligence. I really don't understand why you would say such a thing. This is how I normally write in forums or emails, is there a problem with my writing?
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Well He did not claim to be a "plumber" He claimed He was The Very Son of God and Savior of the world.
 
TubbyTubby said:
He didn't claim to be a lunatic or a liar either as far as I know. Just wondering why there are only those 3 choices?
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You know its ok to say you don't know something Tubby? A lot of things I don't know, but some things I know beyond what is logical and reasonable to men. Jesus Christ is the Lord, He is the very God that made all things.
 
Mitspa said:
You know its ok to say you don't know something Tubby? A lot of things I don't know, but some things I know beyond what is logical and reasonable to men. Jesus Christ is the Lord, He is the very God that made all things.
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I often say it Mitspa, more than you can possibly imagine. Why can't someone tell me why the only choices for Jesus are Lord, Lunatic or Liar? I just don't get the point of the question and nobody seems able to answer it.
 
TubbyTubby said:
I often say it Mitspa, more than you can possibly imagine. Why can't someone tell me why the only choices for Jesus are Lord, Lunatic or Liar? I just don't get the point of the question and nobody seems able to answer it.
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Ill let Major respond, but I understand the point he is making and you do.
 
TubbyTubby said:
I often say it Mitspa, more than you can possibly imagine. Why can't someone tell me why the only choices for Jesus are Lord, Lunatic or Liar? I just don't get the point of the question and nobody seems able to answer it.
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If He's Lord: then you need to obey and accept Him as God
If He's a lunatic: then you can dismiss Him as crazy and you don't have to listen to your conscience
If He's a liar: again, you can dismiss Him, and you don't have to listen to your conscience
 
Abdicate said:
If He's Lord: then you need to obey and accept Him as God
If He's a lunatic: then you can dismiss Him as crazy and you don't have to listen to your conscience
If He's a liar: again, you can dismiss Him, and you don't have to listen to your conscience
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Ok, I see the point of it. I still don't think it covers all options of who he might have been as you have to declare him as one of two extremes (and incredible extremes at that).

I obviously, wouldn't say he was the lord and considering I never met him it would be a massively unfair assumption for me to class him as a lunatic or liar. I can only truthfully say he was probably a deeply religious Jewish son of a carpenter.
 
TubbyTubby said:
Ok, I see the point of it. I still don't think it covers all options of who he might have been as you have to declare him as one of two extremes (and incredible extremes at that).

I obviously, wouldn't say he was the lord and considering I never met him it would be a massively unfair assumption for me to class him as a lunatic or liar. I can only truthfully say he was probably a deeply religious Jewish son of a carpenter.
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So how did you come to the conclusion that He a son of a carpenter?
 
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