Presumably the Blood Moon Tetrad phrophecy is upon us as well?
Learning Genesis
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Whoever brought that up is amiss that the Sun shall be as sackcloth and the moon as blood is an apocalyptic idiom not a prophecy...but you could not fit the sudden darkness over so large a geographical area into your categories above, not what happened Tyre...
The examples I gave do not fit any of your categories...some prophecies you indicate as failed are not prophecies at all (like your Joshua reference)....God says do this and it will be so, but if the people do not do it then obviously what He promised will not come to pass.
Fulfilled prophecies (and there are over 120) cannot be ignored as they are "outside the natural order" and not possibly explainable by the materialists understanding of reality nor proven/disproven by "scientific" (laboratory) testing...but they happened. You gave the criteria and the criteria was met but your pre-conceived conclusion cannot accept it (so you will not) but that does not mean it is not real...same with there being a God (true objectivity cannot deny the possibility...those who do are the ones in denial)
The examples I gave do not fit any of your categories...some prophecies you indicate as failed are not prophecies at all (like your Joshua reference)....God says do this and it will be so, but if the people do not do it then obviously what He promised will not come to pass.
Fulfilled prophecies (and there are over 120) cannot be ignored as they are "outside the natural order" and not possibly explainable by the materialists understanding of reality nor proven/disproven by "scientific" (laboratory) testing...but they happened. You gave the criteria and the criteria was met but your pre-conceived conclusion cannot accept it (so you will not) but that does not mean it is not real...same with there being a God (true objectivity cannot deny the possibility...those who do are the ones in denial)
"Amos predicts Israel would be restored as a nation and would never be uprooted again"
Lets look at this one then, it's only true because Israel still exists. I will make a prophecy right now that says Israel, one day, will not exist in its current form. It will become part of a bigger state eventually.
Lets look at this one then, it's only true because Israel still exists. I will make a prophecy right now that says Israel, one day, will not exist in its current form. It will become part of a bigger state eventually.
Good one...or maybe what we call Armageddon will happen first...but even if Israel becomes part of a greater state does not mean it ceases to be Israel...also note that on the Passover (32 A.D.) the evening of the sudden darkness (like the Sun being covered with Sackcloth) there was a blood moon (at least according to Astronomers calculating back)...not claiming it as a fulfillment of that which will occur at the 2nd coming but just point of interest...
I only ridiculed Darwin's view of evolution (you brought up these other guys, no doubt to start an argument), and not because his view disagrees with mine, but because it has been proven to be in error in many places and yet is still imposed on generations of innocent children as "established", therefore your point makes no sense whatsoever...
Paul
I only ridiculed Darwin's view of evolution (you brought up these other guys, no doubt to start an argument), and not because his view disagrees with mine, but because it has been proven to be in error in many places and yet is still imposed on generations of innocent children as "established", therefore your point makes no sense whatsoever...
Paul
I cannot believe you say Ezekiel 29 was not fulfilled...Egypt was this powerful huge Kingdom and after Nebi, who ever hears about them (40 being 40 but also a number symbolizing judgment) until after his fall....and they were DEFINITELY under Nebis heel...just google a map of "The Babylonian Empire" and you can see it contains Egypt (even secular historians know this is true)...so what are you talking about?
Evolution has been proven to a much greater certainty than God.
The teaching of Evolution doesn't carry with it the baggage of being submissive to it either, there is a big difference. Evolution does not bring forth a fundamentalist.
The teaching of Evolution doesn't carry with it the baggage of being submissive to it either, there is a big difference. Evolution does not bring forth a fundamentalist.
NOPE. Just some that I remembered. I had to look up the dates etc. But Mr. Tubby..........this is not my first rodeo my friend.
Just as most here, we have become used to the questions and operations of athesists. Yes there are some you will be able to fool but you must know or you should know I know the web site you are copy and pasting from.
"Talk Origins Archive . org." Your questions posted are exactly word for word which is why I posted those prophecies.
Now you see what I meant when I said I did not think you meant what you said about believing. Now you begin the process of trying to explain away HISTORY. These are not dreams, or visions or my opinions. THAY ARE HISTORICAL EVENTS that you are trying now to say did not happen by using the web site of skeptics as the basis for your questions. Do you not see then that this whole process has NOT been an attempt to learn truth but an exercise of pulling the strings of those who had a need they thought to lead you to Christ. YOU have been abusing the copywrite laws to make the people here think you were sincere!!!!!!!1
At the "Skeptics web site you have been using uses as one of their resources, the materials from a sourse which IS NOT EVEN A CHRISTIAN ORGANIZATION!! - The Jehovah's Witnesses propaganda.
Claim CH110:
The Bible contains many prophecies that have accurately been fulfilled, proving it is a divine source.
Source:
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. 1985. Life--How Did It Get Here? Brooklyn, NY, pp. 216-223.
ATTEMPT #1.
The skeptics web site said..........
Retrodiction. The "prophecy" can be written or modified after the events fulfilling it have already occurred.
Tubby.........this is the #1 attemp of all non-believers when trying to sweep away Bible prophecy. They are not coming up with a new way.....it has been around for thousands of years and it does not explain away REAL HISTOTICAL FACTS.
Now as I said, this is a well known way of explination thrown out there but notice, there is no proof to your comment. How do you prove "Retrodiction" of any of the listed examples????
ATTEMPT#2.
They said................
"Vagueness."
NOPE. That will not work either my friend. I gave you the exact dates just for that reason. You see, I was sure that was going to be their way of explaining this.
ATTEMPt #3.
You said............
Inevitability.
NOPE. Your web site advisors give us this exciting explination.....
"Since nothing lasts forever, the city is sure to fall someday."
I struggle to keep a straight face. I just can not believe anyone can buy this kind of nonsense.
Even in the face of exact times, places and people, you skeptics fall back on this kind of understanding.
ATTEMPT #4
They said...................
Denial. "One can claim that the fulfilling events occurred even if they have not.
In other words LIE about it hoping that no one will notice it!!!! RIGHT. Like there are not hundreds of no-believers who have been reading and working over the Bible to find JUST ONE of those kinds of things so that they can say.....SEE I TOLD YOU SO"!!!!!!! Excuse me while I try to get up off the floor. Come on Mr. Tubby, you can not possibly believe that.
ATTEMPT #5
They said........
Self-fulfillment. A person can act deliberately to satisfy a known prophecy. There are no prophecies in the Bible that cannot easily fit into one or more of those categories.
The problem with that of course is believing that the prophets of God were as depraved and dumb as are the ones who came up with this excuse.
The idea that all of these different men who wrote prophecies in the Bible over a span of 1500 years, would somehow figure out a way to manipulate the future events 100 to several thousand years apart, long after they would have died, would be for what reason??????
Well..............I think I am ptretty much done with this thread. I just can not believe it went on for as long as it has.
But ya know what Tubby? Your little exercise has in fact proven another prophecy given just about 200 years ago by the Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:when 4 when Jesus advised us all..................
"Take heed that no man deceive you"!
You have done just that and YOU are in fact part of the prophecies of God that have now once again been proven 100% correct.
I specifically stated "Darwin's theory" but I forgive you because many (especially evangelical Christians) equate the two but they do not equate (though there are some similar notions).
I don't see how "Take heed that no man deceive you" is a prophecy? That's more a statement that insists you re-inforce your faith by ignoring infidels. It's a way to ensure the faith gets passed from father to son, nothing more nothing less.
I'm sorry you're leaving my thread, I enjoy your input.
There's only one theory of Evolution as far as I'm aware.
As usual YOU missed the whole point. Had you read the whole thing you would have seen that what Jesus said WAS a prophecy. IN the last days" there will be men who will try to DECEIVE you".
Your deception of those here on the site actually fulfills that prophecy. Sorry you can not understand that.
Or maybe you missed the point? There's always two sides to an argument.
And I'm not here to deceive anyone. Healthy debate is good for all, it can either bring your belief closer or lead you to question it. Neither of those is a bad thing.
@TubbyTubby One fulfilled prophecy that even Christians argued about is the FACT that Israel was born in a day in 1948. Here's the scripture:
Isaiah 66:8-9 (KJV)
Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut [the womb]? saith thy God.
By declaration of the United Nations on 14 May 1948, Israel became a nation, at 6:00 pm Eastern Time, and at 6:11 pm, Harry S Truman recognized the State of Israel. Debate on the name raged on, Palestine?, Zion?, Judea?, until Pres. Truman scratched out the pseudo name and hand wrote State of Israel!
Ezekiel 37:21-23 (KJV)
And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
By the way... FDR said he'd never do this and wrote Emir Feisal stating as such, and 7 days later he was dead and a Christian VP was sworn in - Truman. There are a LOT of Cause & Effects, but I won't get into them here.
Here are five more modern prophecies:
ISRAEL WILL BE ONE NATION - NO LONGER TWO (ISRAEL AND JUDAH)
Remember they used to be Judah - 2 tribes and Israel - 10 tribes, and today it is just Israel. Ezekiel 37:22 .
LATTER DAYS THEY WILL HAVE NO KING
This was written after they had returned from Babylon - so return from where? After WWII they returned to Israel as promised. Today they have a president and a prime minister. They have no temple, so no sacrifice, nor an image of the temple, nor the tools used by the high priest. Soon they will thanks to the Temple Institute, Hosea 3:4-5 .
JERUSALEM SHALL NO LONGER BE DIVIDED
In 1967 Israel was attacked again by the Arabs and after six days Israel took the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank including the rest of Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. The east country and the west country became one just as prophesied, Zechariah 8:6-8 .
THE GATES WILL REMAIN OPEN
Since Israel took possession of Jerusalem, the gates will never shut, day nor night (save the Eastern Gate which was sealed by the Turks). Isaiah 60:11-12 .
LAST DAYS TWO SEAS
The Dead Sea has become two seas...in fulfillment of prophecy:
Ezekiel 47:8-11 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea:which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many. But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
In order for verse eight to be fulfilled, verse eleven needs to be in place. Over the last sixty years, this has been happening. Notice that by 2001 (even until today) the lower part of the Dead Sea has become a salt farm ... they shall be given to salt. Even some maps don't show the lower part as being part of the Dead Sea.
The top part has not yet been healed, but when the feet of Jesus touch the Mt. of Olives, it will split north and south creating an east-west valley. Perry Stone mentioned that a huge reservoir deep under Mt. Moria, Zechariah 14:4 , Joel 3:18 .
Joel speaks of Shittim which is in Moab, today, Jordan. The house of the Lord is on the temple mount and the Mt. of Olives is just east of it.
While I have more, this is one most irrefutable:
JERUSALEM WILL BECOME A CONTROVERSY
Zechariah 12:2-3 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
There is no denying the fact that the entire world is focusing on one city - Jerusalem! Of which there is NO logic whatsoever as to why, except that it is a spiritual battle. Though this verse was written over 2500 years ago, it is only NOW being fulfilled. Read the headlines of any newspaper today and you'll usually see something on Jerusalem.
Isaiah 66:8-9 (KJV)
Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut [the womb]? saith thy God.
Ezekiel 37:21-23 (KJV)
And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
By the way... FDR said he'd never do this and wrote Emir Feisal stating as such, and 7 days later he was dead and a Christian VP was sworn in - Truman. There are a LOT of Cause & Effects, but I won't get into them here.
Here are five more modern prophecies:
ISRAEL WILL BE ONE NATION - NO LONGER TWO (ISRAEL AND JUDAH)
Remember they used to be Judah - 2 tribes and Israel - 10 tribes, and today it is just Israel. Ezekiel 37:22 .
LATTER DAYS THEY WILL HAVE NO KING
This was written after they had returned from Babylon - so return from where? After WWII they returned to Israel as promised. Today they have a president and a prime minister. They have no temple, so no sacrifice, nor an image of the temple, nor the tools used by the high priest. Soon they will thanks to the Temple Institute, Hosea 3:4-5 .
JERUSALEM SHALL NO LONGER BE DIVIDED
In 1967 Israel was attacked again by the Arabs and after six days Israel took the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank including the rest of Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. The east country and the west country became one just as prophesied, Zechariah 8:6-8 .
THE GATES WILL REMAIN OPEN
Since Israel took possession of Jerusalem, the gates will never shut, day nor night (save the Eastern Gate which was sealed by the Turks). Isaiah 60:11-12 .
LAST DAYS TWO SEAS
The Dead Sea has become two seas...in fulfillment of prophecy:
Ezekiel 47:8-11 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea:which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many. But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
In order for verse eight to be fulfilled, verse eleven needs to be in place. Over the last sixty years, this has been happening. Notice that by 2001 (even until today) the lower part of the Dead Sea has become a salt farm ... they shall be given to salt. Even some maps don't show the lower part as being part of the Dead Sea.
Joel speaks of Shittim which is in Moab, today, Jordan. The house of the Lord is on the temple mount and the Mt. of Olives is just east of it.
While I have more, this is one most irrefutable:
JERUSALEM WILL BECOME A CONTROVERSY
Zechariah 12:2-3 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
There is no denying the fact that the entire world is focusing on one city - Jerusalem! Of which there is NO logic whatsoever as to why, except that it is a spiritual battle. Though this verse was written over 2500 years ago, it is only NOW being fulfilled. Read the headlines of any newspaper today and you'll usually see something on Jerusalem.
Well I can sort of see how it can be associated with Israel but it's rather vague isn't it?
I predict that in less than 300 years time Jerusalem will be treated as an important historical site along with the pyramids and stonehenge as we, as a race, become more aware of our origins and move forwards instead of looking backwards thousands of years for our knowledge.
The other possibility is that one of the two dominant religious movements becomes more powerful and removes the other, whichever one does that would not matter it would be hell on Earth either way. The only way that we can achieve anything resembling peace would be to send our Gods into part of our history. Respect that we worshipped them, but look to live with each other without them. That would be my idea of heaven.
Amen.
The other possibility is that one of the two dominant religious movements becomes more powerful and removes the other, whichever one does that would not matter it would be hell on Earth either way. The only way that we can achieve anything resembling peace would be to send our Gods into part of our history. Respect that we worshipped them, but look to live with each other without them. That would be my idea of heaven.
Amen.
No Jesus, No Peace
Know Jesus, Know Peace
Amen. (Which is Hebrew for "It is truth", btw)
The most amazing prophesy I have found is from Grant Jeffery's book "The Signature of God". In it he cites Ezekiel 4:3-6 which prophesies 390 years plus 40 years as punishment through the Babylonian exile. This totals 430 years of punishment. The Jews were in exile for 70 years, from 606 BC to 536 BC. Subtract the 70 years punishment from the 430 total which leaves you with 360 years more punishment. 536 BC minus 360 years gives you 176 BC. Nothing significant happened at that time. This puzzled scholars until another scripture was used to complete the puzzle. In Leviticus chapter 26, God lays out additional punishment for lack of repenting for the sins. Multiple times God says punishment will be increased 7 times what the original amount was.
So using this, the fact that many Jews did not return to Israel and those who did were unrepentant, the 360 years would be multiplied by 7. 360 x 7 = 2,520 years. Now you must account for the Jewish year of 360 days as opposed to our 365.25 day year. To convert to days, take 2520 x 360 (days per year)= 907,200 total days. Convert this to our years. 907,200 days / 365.25 (for our years) = 2483.7782. Subtract this from the year 536 BC, accounting for there being no year 0 since 1 BC became 1 AD. Start at 536 BC and go forward 2,483.78 years and you get, ready for this........, 1948, the year Israel became a nation again.
So using this, the fact that many Jews did not return to Israel and those who did were unrepentant, the 360 years would be multiplied by 7. 360 x 7 = 2,520 years. Now you must account for the Jewish year of 360 days as opposed to our 365.25 day year. To convert to days, take 2520 x 360 (days per year)= 907,200 total days. Convert this to our years. 907,200 days / 365.25 (for our years) = 2483.7782. Subtract this from the year 536 BC, accounting for there being no year 0 since 1 BC became 1 AD. Start at 536 BC and go forward 2,483.78 years and you get, ready for this........, 1948, the year Israel became a nation again.
These are really general but…
The Darwinian model – all different phyla evolve from earlier phyla (man and ape share a common ancestor) and includes a variety LaMark’s acquired characterisitics (thus Giraffes got longer necks by reaching over and over for 1000s of generations, Africans are black due to greater exposure to the Sun, finches grew longer beaks to adapt to the limited food sources, etc.,)
The neo-Darwinian model – (like the Leaky’s) - All creatures come from earlier forms (man therefore evolved from apes – australopithicus becomes our ancestor) and this happened by small changes in speciation
Punctuated Equilibrium – new creatures do not evolve over long periods of time by small changes but appear in the geological column as evolutionist Stephen J. Gould says, "all at once fully formed"
Catastrophe Theory – changes in creatures occur because of adaptation and assimilation forcing interbreeding and these blendings are largely due to the effects of catastrophe (like the comet model, the flood model, radiation patterns in history, sudden changes in food chemistry, and so on…)
Progressive Evolution – an information model - all creatures evolve in a uni-linear fashion by a pre-determined innate or inner forces
The Regional Continuity model - deals mostly with man and opposes the “out of Africa” theory demonstrating (see Mungo Man) that different lines emerge from Africa, Europe, and Asia and interbreeding and interaction produced the variations we now have
The Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium Model – a probability model – says evolution of a species within any given phyla is a matter of the frequency of alleles in the gene pool…evolution does not occur in creatures who meet most of these 7 criteria…no positive mutations, no natural selection, large populations mating and breeding regularly and randomly, similarity in the number of offspring, little migration to interact with other populations.
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