Liberal Christians?

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MMurphy said:
The APA and virtually all psychologists agree that a person has little control over his or her orientation and that there doesn't appear to be much correlation between environmental factors and the development of orientation. Though both homosexual and heterosexual orientations probably developed at puberty not birth.

Though to be fair tendencies being out of ones control does not necessarily permit the deed. Some people develope a high sexuality but that does not mean they can engage in promiscuity. Likewise some people are asexual.

What I most have a problem with is people refusing to actually learn the medical research and instead cosigning a behavior they don't understand to 'demon possession'.
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Well the homosexual agenda is in full force and at the end of it all these people are just trying to justify what God has condemned. If you have not noticed by now? I am not too concerned with the thoughts of man or what men may or may not think? "Let God be true and everyman a liar"...So that some group claims some chemical causes and justifies perversion is not acceptable to me.
 
Mitspa said:
Well the homosexual agenda is in full force and at the end of it all these people are just trying to justify what God has condemned. If you have not noticed by now? I am not too concerned with the thoughts of man or what men may or may not think? "Let God be true and everyman a liar"...So that some group claims some chemical causes and justifies perversion is not acceptable to me.
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Well I think it beseeches us to learn from others the mysteries God reveals to us. I admit I'm not an expert in human behavior so I listen to the people who are. I know I have an anxiety disorder which causes me to think I've done things I haven't or to imagine sacrilegious things that I don't necessarily have control over, and there are some who think that psychology is bogus because its not in the Bible and all I need in an exorcism. But I'll tell you the medicine helps and I'd like to not be exorcised.

Now days Catholic exorcists won't even attempt one if the individual hasn't been seen by a psychologist. Notice the synergy? That is far more beneficial to the flock of souls than the rivalry you propagate.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
I don't think there's anything wrong with conspiracy theories, but I understand that you want to go strictly by what we know as sound. But going off of that, I don't think there's anything wrong with recognizing agendas as existing. I agree with Mitspa that there is an agenda that the culture is pushing for. We see it everyday and we've seen it in history (though this is a new twist on it).

I don't mind looking toward what science suggests...I'm not a scientist, I'm a layman, but I'm also a Christian -- so no matter what science says, there is still an objective theological truth. I always back up science because science is a good, valid institution, but science can't measure certain things, including theology or morality. This is why no matter what science says, the moral truth is that the vocation of marriage is designed within God's blueprint alone, and we have to honor that. It's not a means of excluding people, but extending God's love.
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In terms of agendas then, in the spirit of coming to an understanding, can we agree that for some there might be some kind of agenda but for others there are not? What I'm seeing here are people who wish to take a stand and speak up about the unfair treatment they have received, and if that constitutes some sort of "agenda," then I won't argue. But for others, they have simply fallen in love, don't wish to wave any signs around about it, and would like to quietly coexist in this world without fanfare.

The problem with measuring the morality of homosexuality based strictly on the Bible is that we have obtained a tremendous amount of knowledge on the subject since the Bible was written. Many people are so quick to judge it as a wicked evil sin that they take no time to understand what's going on. Speaking to a homosexual is possibly the most enlightening thing of all. No one's set out to upset anyone at all, they just fell in love. And as Christians many of us are telling them that's the wrong kind of love, that they should only have this experience with someone of the opposite sex, and that simply is not possible.

And so what position do we leave homosexual people in? Just to live celibate lives? Is it our place to make that request of them? I really see that no one's being hurt here. We have one lifetime and to be asked to spend it alone without companionship strikes me as cold and cruel in the extreme.
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
In terms of agendas then, in the spirit of coming to an understanding, can we agree that for some there might be some kind of agenda but for others there are not? What I'm seeing here are people who wish to take a stand and speak up about the unfair treatment they have received, and if that constitutes some sort of "agenda," then I won't argue. But for others, they have simply fallen in love, don't wish to wave any signs around about it, and would like to quietly coexist in this world without fanfare.

The problem with measuring the morality of homosexuality based strictly on the Bible is that we have obtained a tremendous amount of knowledge on the subject since the Bible was written. Many people are so quick to judge it as a wicked evil sin that they take no time to understand what's going on. Speaking to a homosexual is possibly the most enlightening thing of all. No one's set out to upset anyone at all, they just fell in love. And as Christians many of us are telling them that's the wrong kind of love, that they should only have this experience with someone of the opposite sex, and that simply is not possible.

And so what position do we leave homosexual people in? Just to live celibate lives? Is it our place to make that request of them? I really see that no one's being hurt here. We have one lifetime and to be asked to spend it alone without companionship strikes me as cold and cruel in the extreme.
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There can easily be agendas on both sides, or even more than just two agendas, but there is definitely one truth.

The answer is that they must live celibate lives. The other option is they don't, but that is rejecting God's model of marriage.

Do I believe people have the right to choose sin or not? Of course they do -- but when anyone chooses sin, they are taking judgment into their own souls and have to take responsibility for it. We can pander and say it's not a big deal only to accommodate their feelings, but that's not charity. Charity would be telling the truth and looking out for them.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
The answer is that they must live celibate lives. The other option is they don't, but that is rejecting God's model of marriage.
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Would you agree that is a tall order? I am glad you didn't suggest conversion therapy which does not work, but - to put this as basically as we can, you are saying that to follow God's word to the letter, a full one-tenth of the human population must live a life without companionship? Friendships are certainly good things but the greater human need of a deep and intimate relationship should be denied them?

My take on this is that this is not what God intends for them.
 
To be sure, there isn't anything wrong with living celebrate. If I were to counsel someone I would recommend that as a starting point. If they didn't like it, well that's fine I'll still counsel them but I couldn't in good conscience recommend something I think is sinful.
 
MMurphy said:
To be sure, there isn't anything wrong with living celebrate. If I were to counsel someone I would recommend that as a starting point. If they didn't like it, well that's fine I'll still counsel them but I couldn't in good conscience recommend something I think is sinful.
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I don't think there's anything wrong with it either, but it's extraordinarily difficult and not a prescription I would give out quite so freely.

I mean think about it, you're essentially telling someone not to fall in love.
 
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PeaceLikeaRiver said:
Would you agree that is a tall order? I am glad you didn't suggest conversion therapy which does not work, but - to put this as basically as we can, you are saying that to follow God's word to the letter, a full one-tenth of the human population must live a life without companionship? Friendships are certainly good things but the greater human need of a deep and intimate relationship should be denied them?

My take on this is that this is not what God intends for them.
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Many people, not just homosexuals, are dealt struggles -- the handicap, the blind, those who have lost their entire families. This is why we must be sympathetic and caring for them...but yes, we should strive to be just like Christ -- which means to the letter, obedience to God. Many people devote themselves to celibacy

I'm no authority on conversion therapy.
 
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PeaceLikeaRiver said:
In terms of Christianity I think a liberal Christian is a little more lax with things such as rules and doesn't think of things as being quite so strict. I never set out to define myself as such but I found I could not get behind all the things that went against my human rights principles - it took having a conversation with a friend who confessed to me that he was gay before I properly understood what it all meant. He wasn't a wicked, perverted, filthy sinner as some Christians would believe, he was a kind, quiet, sensitive, lonely person who could only make that special bond with someone of the same sex. And he hated himself for it. That just tore my heart out, and I have tried very hard not to judge others ever since, and certainly not to beat them up with my Bible. I do NOT think that was what Christ wanted, nor to "educate" him or convert him or change him.
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Hmm, pretty difficult for me. I don't believe that one is created that way. I think one gradually believes they are through accepting suggestions from Satan (and his minions) although I think the process is rather subtle. I most certainly do not believe anyone is straightforwardly asked "which orientation do you choose" and (at worst) answer "I'll pick Gay to displease God". I'll also state that I've seen nothing amongst people I've known that would in anyway support a slide over time with the most debauched state possible being homosexual.

I need to move to some of your later questions in the thread on believing scientific questions now. Personally I do believe there is a spiritual battle going on and that we should not let Satan to be allowed the cover of mental health. I'd be reluctant to but I can post more on this but I ask you to believe me for now that I'm pretty sure that rather than scrapping it 20 odd years ago and after a couple of months of "compliance" , I'd still be on Sulpiride had I believed the medics (slightly aside but I will also add that the last psychiatrist I spoke to which was on an alcohol detox agreed with me at least in so far as schizophrenic was nonsense). I know that personally I'd not have got as far (still a way to go) on spiritual battle had I believed medicine.

Probably enough on that side. There's the how to deal with a gay person when you believe there is something wrong. I've varied on this but I'm back to leaving it to converastion or asking my views.

IMO (and something I've seen with my own struggles with drink) is partailly (I think) in line with some of your thoughts. I'll phrase it this way:

We have the Pharisee and the Tax collector praying (we know what they both said) but the Pharisee then goes a step further, feels commanded by God and walks up to the Tax Collector telling him how disgraceful he is and how God has told him to repent. I've seen a few Christians operate that way...
 
MMurphy said:
That's just absolutely ridiculous. The fundamentalists have always been far more pressuring to medicine and science than anyone in the gay community. For goodness sake, the fundamentalists threaten with hellfire, all the gays have is the withdraw of their considerable sense of fashion.

The video you posted was what prompted me to look into the issue.
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Sorry, I'm all out of hellfire. They stopped making it in WW2.
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
The only ones who are so certain of a gay agenda are the far right opponents of it. No one else has a clue what they're talking about.
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I wouldn't consider myself a far right opponent. To be honest, I don't think the government should be restricting marriage, but only because I don't think marriage should be a government institution in the first place. It would mean people have the free will to choose right or wrong.

I'm only expressing what I've observed. When I say agenda, I mean a rhetoric that welcomes only one opinion and unwelcomes anything even slightly different even if it's only in question. It's almost impossible to bring up a perspective from another angle without being branded bigoted and homophobic, even if it is done with love.
 
Leo_ACH said:
I dont agree.....I believe we were for quite of a long time.....but apostasy have to come...so let it come...
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Name one thing that the US as an entire nation of people did that is within the Two Great Commands.

I can only think of one. The Marshall Plan, and even then it was done with the intent of getting something in return.

The King said if we do works like that we have our reward. We will get none in The Kingdom.
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
I don't think there's anything wrong with it either, but it's extraordinarily difficult and not a prescription I would give out quite so freely.

I mean think about it, you're essentially telling someone not to fall in love.
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To begin, we don't have the authority to tell people what to do. We can't force theological virtues on anyone...all we can do is evangelize, defend, promote, and pray. To rest is really up to the individuals.

But we have to remember what does it mean to fall in love with someone? This isn't meant as being exclusive, but if falling in love with someone is directly surrounded by a greater love for God, then I think it's especially valid...but if we fall in love without someone more-so than we love God, is it a virtue or have we broken the number one commandment?

Again, I don't believe in force -- love can only be freely given, and Christian morality has to be voluntary. But there are groups of gay people who do their absolute best to live the Christian life by living chaste and devoted to God, divorcing themselves from homosexual activity -- they are called Side B Homosexuals. Side B homosexuals have some disagreements, and a few of them I don't entirely agree with, but these are people who are legitimately doing their best to honor God despite their hurtles.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
To begin, we don't have the authority to tell people what to do. We can't force theological virtues on anyone...all we can do is evangelize, defend, promote, and pray. To rest is really up to the individuals.

But we have to remember what does it mean to fall in love with someone? This isn't meant as being exclusive, but if falling in love with someone is directly surrounded by a greater love for God, then I think it's especially valid...but if we fall in love without someone more-so than we love God, is it a virtue or have we broken the number one commandment?

Again, I don't believe in force -- love can only be freely given, and Christian morality has to be voluntary. But there are groups of gay people who do their absolute best to live the Christian life by living chaste and devoted to God, divorcing themselves from homosexual activity -- they are called Side B Homosexuals. Side B homosexuals have some disagreements, and a few of them I don't entirely agree with, but these are people who are legitimately doing their best to honor God despite their hurtles.
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I'll tell you all what.

When us heterosexuals stop flaunting our romances, sex and public shows of affection all over the place in the street, on TV and in video; THEN we can ask gays to stop doing the same things, wanting marriage and equal representation.

Also, when we can stop the adulterous marriages in the Christian community, then we can say no no to them about marriage.

So all you out there that are remarried and your spouse is not dead, do what the King said. Stop it and sin no more.
 
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