Mark 16:9-20

[Major]

I am really starting to wonder why some people even bother to debate things on here. It doesn't seem like most of the participants are willing to even consider changing their opinions/beliefs, much less actually change them.

Shouldn't we be seekers and accepters of the truth regardless of what that costs us? How can one accept a new truth when it is presented if they are closed off from it from the beginning?

Absolutly true! I feel lead to tell you that I’ve spent time with Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, Methodists, and lots more than I could even name here and now. What is important is that the core of the Christian faith has never changed. The "essentials" are the same and that is what makes the difference.

All true believers hold certain convictions in common and are un-wavering in their faith. Real believers are scattered all over, it seems from one corner of the world to another.

What makes us the same is that we all believe in one God. Every single person I know on this site believes in the Lord Jesus Christ as God's only begotten and eternal Son. We all believe that the Spirit of God is God Himself, moving and working in many ways here on earth, from the beginning of creation to this very day. We believe that Jesus lived a sinless life, that He died willingly for the sins of the whole world, that He arose again from the dead, that He is now at the Father's right hand, and that He is coming again. We believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the very power of God to salvation for all who believe.

It is my personal conviction that the people on this web site would give their lives for that belief because they know that those beliefs are ESSENTIAL to the Christian faith.

But when it comes to "non-essential" belief's we see many different theologies come out. Some are "Cessationists", some are believers in Signs & Wonders, some are convinced that we must keep the Law and some believe we must attend church on Saturday instead of Sunday. Those non-essentials things will never ever be reconciled until Jesus comes again to take us home with Him. THEN we will realize how unimportant RELIGION really was.

My encouragement to you would be for you to understand that we debate and argue back and forth because we are sinners, because we are fleshly, because we are often stupid (Especially ME). Being a Christian does not make us fully mature and wise, it just saves us and places us in God’s kingdom but still leaves us here in these flesh bodies.

The good news is that as we walk with God and grow up into the knowledge of Christ, we have the opportunity each day to become more like Jesus Christ and less like the people we used to be. Some days we may not make much progress. But every day is a new opportunity to grow in God’s grace and to be closer to those who have accepted Him as their Lord and Saviour.

The bottom line is really simple. Our church affiliation means nothing at all to God. Only the affiliation we have with Jesus Himself really matters. If we know and love Jesus, if we trust only in Him for eternal life and for the forgiveness of sin, then we are on the right path. But if we trust too much in our religion (no matter what religion that may be) we may still be very lost.

As Dr. Billy Graham once said.................
“Lots of really good Baptists and Catholics and Pentecostals and other religious people are going to die and go straight to hell.” Why? Because religion can't save you.

 

[Major]

Sorry...Who?

Euphemia who stated........."That two in agreement stuff doesn't hold water here."

 

[Major]

There is faith in every instance.



That Jesus healed the bind man in stages is a demonstration for us to hold on to that hope that our healing is on its way. His healing power in us is not always instantaneous. That is why we need to exercise our faith in His word and in who He is and in the authority we have been given over disease.

I do not mean to be argumnitive with you my sister, but it is simply not true that ........"There is faith in every instance of healing".

Acts 3:1-10 gives us the example of a lame man. When we read the example we have to ask, what faith did the lame man have??? He didn't know who Peter and John were. He wasn't asking for healing, he was looking for money. Yet without asking and without faith, he was healed.

In Luke 7:11-16 is another example of Jesus healing where NO faith was involved.
Jesus and his disciples are just passing through. They are strangers here and happen to come upon a funeral procession. No one asked Jesus to do anything. No one was expecting him to do anything. He simply goes up to the widow to offer comfort and then tells the young man to get up. There was no requirement for faith asked for or recorded.

And again I mention the man who died in 1 Kings 13:2-21. A man dies and as his friends take him to be buried, they see raiders approaching. Quickly they stuff the body in a nearby tomb, which just happens to be Elisha's. And when the body touched Elisha's bones, he was restored to life. No one was asking for a miracle. No one was looking for a miracle. Everyone's focus was on Moabites and their need to defend themselves. There was no faith involved by anyone in this situation.

I just encourage you to be careful of blanket statements which can be misunderstood.

 

[Abdicate]

Ah, exactly. Literally, as well as spiritually. I think we get something of the spiritual side of that in our brother @netchaplain's post: http://www.christianforumsite.com/index.php?threads/43678/

Thanks. I'll read it. I rarely read blogs.

 

[Major]

Notice that Jesus did not physically heal EVERYONE...crowds would throng Him...some touching Him...some beging for Mercy, some for healing but he healed some here and some there (mostly for the glory of God). Likewise we see the Father heals some and does not heal all. And stranger still, even in the Bible God brings healing trough us sometimes medicinally....Timothy's gut virus is ministered to by a little red wine (which in fact effects the intestinal flora)....God tells Isaiah to minister to Hezekiah's boils by having him make and apply "plasters" (poultices)....Jesus heals one kind of blindness by making an ointment out of Saliva and a particular type of clay....Paul is left with his thorn in the flesh....and so on...

Some illnesses were caused by beings invisible to the eye (some of the devils and some maybe not) today we have proved most illnesses ARE caused by life forms invisible to the eye (we call them bacteria)....

Just some thoughts to add....

Absolutely agreed. What is interesting is that Jesus talked and walked and met people, healed more that we can know, did miracle after miracle and fed maybe 20,000 in one of the greatest miracles in the Bible, BUT when He was dying on the cross, only FOUR came to give Him support. FOUR!!!

 

[Major]

That which has been revealed to our sister may be very similar to the Charismatic Pentacostal teaching, yet she does not belong to that denomination. I have probably a very similar revelation to that of the Baptist denomination. I am not a Baptist, however, I would not be offended if someone pointed that out. In fact, I would agree with them that I hold similar views. They are my brothers and sisters also, cause we belong to the same church.

Well said and thank you for the insight!

 

[Euphemia]

I do not mean to be argumnitive with you my sister, but it is simply not true that ........"There is faith in every instance of healing".

Acts 3:1-10 gives us the example of a lame man. When we read the example we have to ask, what faith did the lame man have??? He didn't know who Peter and John were. He wasn't asking for healing, he was looking for money. Yet without asking and without faith, he was healed.

In Luke 7:11-16 is another example of Jesus healing where NO faith was involved.
Jesus and his disciples are just passing through. They are strangers here and happen to come upon a funeral procession. No one asked Jesus to do anything. No one was expecting him to do anything. He simply goes up to the widow to offer comfort and then tells the young man to get up. There was no requirement for faith asked for or recorded.

And again I mention the man who died in 1 Kings 13:2-21. A man dies and as his friends take him to be buried, they see raiders approaching. Quickly they stuff the body in a nearby tomb, which just happens to be Elisha's. And when the body touched Elisha's bones, he was restored to life. No one was asking for a miracle. No one was looking for a miracle. Everyone's focus was on Moabites and their need to defend themselves. There was no faith involved by anyone in this situation.

I just encourage you to be careful of blanket statements which can be misunderstood.

The power of God is so strong that healing and new life to the dead can certainly occur without one having faith for it. It's a miracle. However, if one WANTS healing, he needs to have faith for it, otherwise he will remain in his condition. This is vital, and what Jesus teaches us about healing, and in His words in several instances, He declares, "Your faith has healed you!" THAT is important for us to know and to believe!

 

[Big Moose]

Why on earth would you state that faith is a game for some? Who would that be? Pushes pride? Are we not promised wonderful things by God?

Have you not met anyone who holds to views of faith which are not Biblical? I have come across more than a few in this forum over the past couple years. Just go to Yahoo Religion and Spirituality forum and you will see a plethora.

These are people who take what they want out of the Bible and develop their own religious views based on their worldview. We hear it all the time. “My God is a God of love and acceptance, and any adults who love each other should be able to be married.” Another: “God makes marijuana grow naturally, so it should be legal.” Mormons were pro-polygamy many years ago. The RCC had many problems in the Middle Ages, not to mention recently.

It is a game of faith if you are promising a guaranteed healing every time you have sickness or disease. If this were the case, there would be many immortal people running around, since they get healed of every physical ailment.

 

[Big Moose]

..some beging for Mercy, some for healing but he healed some here and some there (mostly for the glory of God).

You mention what was in my head.
I think many are missing this point, that healings are done for the glory of God. One can claim all the promises they want, but if it does not bring glory to God, it won’t happen. If it is not part of God’s plan, then it is just your own desire. Are we so smart? Glory for God may come with the ailment. Those who go thru trials make for great testimonies.

Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

James says you can’t say what is in store for tomorrow. All you can do is claim it Lord willing.

James 4:13-16
Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

 

[Euphemia]

Have you not met anyone who holds to views of faith which are not Biblical? I have come across more than a few in this forum over the past couple years. Just go to Yahoo Religion and Spirituality forum and you will see a plethora.

These are people who take what they want out of the Bible and develop their own religious views based on their worldview. We hear it all the time. “My God is a God of love and acceptance, and any adults who love each other should be able to be married.” Another: “God makes marijuana grow naturally, so it should be legal.” Mormons were pro-polygamy many years ago. The RCC had many problems in the Middle Ages, not to mention recently.

It is a game of faith if you are promising a guaranteed healing every time you have sickness or disease. If this were the case, there would be many immortal people running around, since they get healed of every physical ailment.

Ah, but we do have the precious promise of healing. We have our healing already. We simply have to appropriate it in the physical.

1 Peter 2:24
He personally carried our sins in His body on the cross [willingly offering Himself on it, as on an altar of sacrifice], so that we might die to sin [becoming immune from the penalty and power of sin] and live for righteousness; for by His wounds you [who believe] have been healed.

 

[Abdicate]

*[[Pro 22:6]] KJV* Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.​

This holds true for both the physical and spiritual children. This is why there are 41,000 Christian denominations. They stop growing. They let others do their own homework and they're left babies ignorant of the truth. Not much anyone can do. Everyone MUST have a teachable humble heart to grow. And growth takes time.

And some have to repeat the class... Love hides a multitude of sins, but we each must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Euphemia]

You mention what was in my head.
I think many are missing this point, that healings are done for the glory of God. One can claim all the promises they want, but if it does not bring glory to God, it won’t happen. If it is not part of God’s plan, then it is just your own desire. Are we so smart? Glory for God may come with the ailment. Those who go thru trials make for great testimonies.

Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

James says you can’t say what is in store for tomorrow. All you can do is claim it Lord willing.

James 4:13-16
Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

Healing is part of God's plan for His children.

 

[Abdicate]

After 18 pages of discussion, nothing has changed. Those that don't want to believe won't ever believe until they have proof. Those that believe beat our heads against brick walls rather than leave then alone. Those that want to learn will learn, God will see to it, those that don't want to are still loved by God and are His and He will judge us all. Say your last because I think it's time to close the thread. Staff and members have hashed this to death. Time to move on.

 

[Euphemia]

Makes me wonder if regular people who are not theologians don't trust in themselves to hear what God is saying correctly or they are just plain to busy or lazy to dig into the Word of God for themselves. Why would anyone put all their trust lock stock and barrel into any man who has studied everything, but has no claims of receiving from the Holy Spirit, what he has written to define the written Word of God? The Bible says in 1 Corinthians 2:14 that the things of the Spirit (which in my opinion one is the Word of God) are spiritually discerned.

I just think this comment of Cturtle bears repeating, God bless her!

 

[Abdicate]

I just think this comment of Cturtle bears repeating, God bless her!

Amen!!

 

[Major]

Have you not met anyone who holds to views of faith which are not Biblical? I have come across more than a few in this forum over the past couple years. Just go to Yahoo Religion and Spirituality forum and you will see a plethora.

These are people who take what they want out of the Bible and develop their own religious views based on their worldview. We hear it all the time. “My God is a God of love and acceptance, and any adults who love each other should be able to be married.” Another: “God makes marijuana grow naturally, so it should be legal.” Mormons were pro-polygamy many years ago. The RCC had many problems in the Middle Ages, not to mention recently.

It is a game of faith if you are promising a guaranteed healing every time you have sickness or disease. If this were the case, there would be many immortal people running around, since they get healed of every physical ailment.

My point as well!

 

[Euphemia]

My final comment would be that if one thinks for one minute that it is not God's will that we be healed, then you will believe that it is God's will that we suffer sickness. In that case, don't sin against God and take medication or see a doctor.

"Those who are not healed" are simply not healed...yet. We are to hold on! It's not a crap shoot, with God. He honours our living faith. We already have our healing.

 

[Major]

After 18 pages of discussion, nothing has changed. Those that don't want to believe won't ever believe until they have proof. Those that believe beat our heads against brick walls rather than leave then alone. Those that want to learn will learn, God will see to it, those that don't want to are still loved by God and are His and He will judge us all. Say your last because I think it's time to close the thread. Staff and members have hashed this to death. Time to move on.

I agree with this. It is way past moving on. Since we are told to make our last I will do just that.

Those who believe that God will heal everyone who has faith and obeys him imply that those who are not healed are faithless and disobedient. But the Bible shows that everyone who has God’s Spirit has at least some faith. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:22). If a person has God’s Spirit, then he or she must be obeying God to some degree. Hence we cannot conclude that those Christians not healed are altogether faithless and disobedient.

It is also true that while all Christians share in faith and obedience, these attributes are possessed and exercised by Christians to differing extents or to different degrees. But even this does not necessarily mean that those who have faith and/or obedience in greater degree are always more likely to be healed than someone else. It may be in the best interest of even the most faithful to suffer with illness.

We have previously seen cases where God did not heal even faith-filled people like Elisha. We have also seen cases where God healed some with little or no faith. And it appears that God sometimes heals regardless of faith simply to extend his mercy to a suffering person. As we have seen from the previous chapters, God has not bound himself to heal every faithful and obedient Christian every time.

Neither does Matthew 9:29 ("According to your faith be it to you") prove that those with more faith are always more likely to be healed. The considerations just cited about God’s will are not contradicted by this verse, no matter how one reads it. The blind men received healing not in proportion to their faith, but rather as the goal of their faith. They had faith that Jesus could heal them, and he did. The Goodspeed translation says it this way: "Have what your faith expects."

The equation drawn by some that those who are healed always have greater faith than those who are not is false. The biblical facts, and common sense, tell us that faith and obedience are not the total explanation — rather, God’s will for the person takes precedence.

Another belief held by many people is that God will heal you if you believe he will. But this reasoning is often based on an assumed definition of faith — namely, that faith is the confidence that God will always heal you. But this is wrong! This is not the correct definition of faith! Faith is not the belief that God will heal you every time you are sick! And all who labor under this notion — as many do — will continue to be confused by the subject of faith and healing.

May God bless us all as we seek to know His will in our lives.

 

[CCW95A]

Heb 11:6.. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Romans 14:23.............whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[Brother Paul]

Ah, but we do have the precious promise of healing. We have our healing already. We simply have to appropriate it in the physical.

1 Peter 2:24
He personally carried our sins in His body on the cross [willingly offering Himself on it, as on an altar of sacrifice], so that we might die to sin [becoming immune from the penalty and power of sin] and live for righteousness; for by His wounds you [who believe] have been healed.

An interesting application comes out of this passage in Isaiah 53 which Peter quotes here...Isaiah says

He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement (disturbance) of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Look closely at what is being promised here....healing from transgression, iniquity, and that which disturbs our Shalom...it really does not address physical illness but spiritual...and that is what we ALL receive IN CHRIST