Mark 16:9-20

[Euphemia]

I think one goes too far concerning words. Jesus gave His body and it was absolutely savagely beaten and torn up so as to be unrecognizable. If that isn't broken, and ripped apart like so much bread, despite the prophetic utterance that no actual bones were broken, what is?

 

[Grant Melville]

I think one goes too far concerning words. Jesus gave His body and it was absolutely savagely beaten and torn up so as to be unrecognizable,. If that isn't broken, and ripped apart like so much bread, despite the prophetic utterance that no actual bones were broken, what is?

Whatever words we use to describe the Lord's bodily sufferings, we have to recognise that those sufferings are represented in the breaking of the bread. We do have to maintain the truth that the Lord's body was never divided, however much it was beaten, bruised, and even His bones put out of joint (Psalm 22:14). We see the same truth reflected in His bodycoat - "the body-coat was seamless, woven through the whole from the top." (John 19:23).

 

[Euphemia]

I adhere to His words. He said His body was broken for us.

 

[Grant Melville]

Whatever words we use to describe the Lord's bodily sufferings, we have to recognise that those sufferings are represented in the breaking of the bread.

I've made a typo here: I meant to say that whatever words we use to describe the Lord's bodily sufferings, we have to recognise that those sufferings are not represented in the breaking of the bread.

 

[Abdicate]

Body broken, bones no, per prophecy...

*[[Psa 34:20]] ISV* God protects all his bones; not one of them will be broken.

*[[Joh 19:35-37/ISV]]* %v 35% The one who saw this has testified, and his testimony is true. He knows he is telling the truth so that you, too, may believe, %v 36% because these things happened so that the Scripture might be fulfilled: “None of his bones will be broken.” %v 37% In addition, another passage of Scripture says, “They will look on the one whom they pierced.”

 

[CCW95A]

"Without the "shedding" of "blood" there is no forgiveness of sin" (Hebrews 9:22)

Blood can not flow unless the "skin" (body) is "broken".

 

[Big Moose]

For our understanding, a better interpretation may be "torn" instead of "broken". This is what is meant by "broken", and when He brake or broke the bread symbolically of His body.

On 1 Corinthians 11:24-
John Gill Bible Commentary- "for though a bone of him was not broken, but inasmuch as his skin and flesh were torn and broken by blows with rods and fists, by whippings and scourgings, by thorns, nails, and spear; and body and soul were torn asunder, or divided from each other by death; and death in Scripture is expressed by (rbv) , "breaking"; see ( Jeremiah 19:11 ) his body might be truly said to be broken, and that for his people; not merely to confirm his doctrine, or set an example of patience, or only for their good; but in their room and stead, as their surety and substitute:"

 

[Euphemia]

I've made a typo here: I meant to say that whatever words we use to describe the Lord's bodily sufferings, we have to recognise that those sufferings are not represented in the breaking of the bread.

Yes they are! The unleavened bread of the Passover represents the body of Jesus, being pierced for us. The hidden bread---Afikomen---wrapped in white linen in the Passover traditional Seder is also representative of Jesus' body.

 

[CCW95A]

Would Jesus's beard be considered a part of his body? If so then this scripture tells us that during his "scourging" his beard was pulled off his face!!

Isa 50:5 The Lord GOD has opened my ear, and I was not rebellious; I turned not backward.
Isa 50:6 I gave my back to those who strike, and my cheeks to those who pull out the beard; I hid not my face from disgrace and spitting.

 

[Major]

Some scholars have raised doubts about the genuineness and inspiration of Mark 16:9-20. With regards to that, I found an address entitled 'Completing Matters' by Mr J. Taylor (Vol. 78, p 67) helpful. Here's an extract:

"I wish to speak at this time about the need for the completion of matters in the assembly. This thought has come to my mind in connection with the scriptures read, while in this meeting.

There are persons who question the authenticity of these verses, claiming that they have been added to the book by someone other than the writer of the gospel. But they really are necessary to bind up, or complete, the gospel, and there hardly can be any doubt but that they are a part of Mark's writing. Mark has his own particular way of expressing himself. One thing that characterises him is that he is very brief — more so than the other gospel writers. But he is most careful to carry matters through to completion. And this is very important, and especially so in assembly matters. The Scriptures tell us that the creation was finished: "And the heavens and the earth and all their host were finished", Genesis 2:1. And we are also told how the matter was completed. The heavens were garnished, we are told. That suggests adornment — not only that they were finished, but that they were made beauteous. And Noah finished the ark — it was completed. The word is, "And Noah did it", Genesis 6:22. And so throughout the Scriptures we find incidents in which matters are brought to completion. God would have it so."

I would highly recommend reading the full address, which can be found in full online.

Grant, this is not a new controversy. It has been debated for as long as I can remember. I recall it being discussed back in 1965 when I was in Greek Language classes so it is not a new debate.

What is factually know is that although the vast majority of later Greek manuscripts contain Mark 16:9-20, the Gospel of Mark ends at verse 8 in two of the oldest and most respected manuscripts, the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus.
These are the oldest manuscripts and are known to be the most accurate because there were fewer generations of copies from the original autographs (i.e., they are much closer in time to the originals), and the oldest manuscripts do not contain vv. 9-20. Now because of that actual fact, it has been concluded that these verses were added later by scribes.

Now having said that, please do not fall into the trap of saying........."The old Major said this and then he said that and he is totally wrong once again"!

The old Major is simply telling you what is taught out there in the land of professors and Dr.'s and scholars and so forth.
Anyone and everyone can reject them because I for do not care!!!
I did not say that I agree with them, only that it is a recorded factual thesis of Christian teaching. If anyone does not accept that, all you have to do is type in "Authenticity of Mark 16:9" and hit the search key and the whole world of information will open up.

What I am saying however is that in the Greek grammatical way of writing, the gifts that are recorded in those verses, IF you accept them as valid, are a set of gifts which come as a package! They are the so called "Sign Gifts" given to the apostles by the Lord Jesus Christ. The point is that IF you can do one of them you must be able to do all of them.
I and no one else can change that. It is what it is.

Now someone will no doubt challenge that because they want to be able to do this or that but if that is the case, then they must be able to drink bleach and handle rattle snacks and raise the dead.

 

[Major]

The five fold ministry has a time limit on it. It will only last, "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man". Once that comes about it is no longer needed for that person who has become perfect (mature). Every single person in the body of Christ does the "work of the ministry" not just only five people. What is the "work of the ministry"? For the "perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" Each and every Christian is called to this work! The five fold ministry is to "perfect" the saints so that they (the Saints) can do the work of the ministry, which is to build up the Body of Christ.

The Apostle Paul was trying to teach a group of people in the book of Hebrews, but could not because they were still babies in the Lord, yet they had been saved long enough to where they should have been "teachers" them-self's. How long does it take to become mature to where one can go about teaching others, thereby being able to edify the body of Christ, which is the work of the ministry?

Are we suppose to stay in a brick, and mortar building Church until we die, or are we to lean and become "mature" and then go out to teach others, so that they to can teach others?

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Just curious..........Where did you find that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. I am not debating the comment, just wanting to know where you got that from.

 

[Euphemia]

What I am saying however is that in the Greek grammatical way of writing, the gifts that are recorded in those verses, IF you accept them as valid, are a set of gifts which come as a package! They are the so called "Sign Gifts" given to the apostles by the Lord Jesus Christ. The point is that IF you can do one of them you must be able to do all of them.
I and no one else can change that. It is what it is.

Now someone will no doubt challenge that because they want to be able to do this or that but if that is the case, then they must be able to drink bleach and handle rattle snacks and raise the dead.

So it is to be challenged, for there is no reason to assume that anyone should receive ALL of the gifts, but everyone could very well experience the use of any and all of the gifts at any time during their lives...or just one, or two or more as the Lord anoints.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with what a person may desire. It has to do with what God desires. It is for His glory and for the Kingdom.

No one can change that. It is what God has ordained.

 

[Major]

Agreed and yet many of the so called great theologians truly believe they are guided by the Holy Spirit. I am not saying that none of them are but I would say that most are not. It is way to easy to see this when you read or hear their arguments on any given scripture and how they perceive what God is saying. They deny way to much and wont except anything other then what they think is Goldy wisdom.

1 Corinthians 1:27 says it well
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

God Bless
Jim

I am not debating your thinking Jim. I am only giving you some information of the subject. Whether you accept it or reject is totally your choice.

As concerning the theologians who interpret the Scriptures, the fourth-century church fathers Eusebius and Jerome noted that almost all Greek manuscripts available to them lacked vv. 9–20, although they doubtless knew those other endings existed.

In the second century, Justin Martyr and Tatian knew about other endings.

Irenaeus, also, in A.D. 150 to 200, must have known about this long ending because he quotes verse 19 from it. So, the early church fathers knew of the added verses, but even by the fourth century, Eusebius said the Greek manuscripts did not include these endings in the originals.

Then these same people (Scholars, theologians) say that the internal evidence from this passage also casts doubt on Mark as the author. For one thing, the transition between verses 8 and 9 is abrupt and awkward.

They say that the Greek word translated “now” that begins v. 9 should link it to what follows, as the use of the word “now” does in the other synoptic Gospels. However, what follows doesn’t continue the story of the women referred to in v. 8, describing instead Jesus’ appearing to Mary Magdalene. There’s no transition there, but rather an abrupt and bizarre change, lacking the continuity typical of Mark’s narrative. The author should be continuing the story of the women based on the word “now,” not jumping to the appearance to Mary Magdalene.

Further, for Mark to introduce Mary Magdalene here as though for the very first time (v. 9) is odd because she had already been introduced in Mark’s narrative in 15:40, 47 and 16:1 and is another evidence that this section was not written by Mark.

They say!!! I did not say that as I am only relaying the thesis of their teaching explaining the reasons wht the ending of Mark is questioned.

 

[Major]

So it is to be challenged, for there is no reason to assume that anyone should receive ALL of the gifts, but everyone could very well experience the use of any and all of the gifts at any time during their lives...or just one, or two or more as the Lord anoints.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with what a person may desire. It has to do with what God desires. It is for His glory and for the Kingdom.

No one can change that. It is what God has ordained.

You are welcome to your opinion my sister.

Dr. John Gill has stated that..........
Verses 17, 18. - Speaking of these "sign gifts", Such evidences were necessary in the first dawn of Christianity, to attract attention to the doctrine; but our Lord's words do not mean that they were to be in perpetuity, as a continually recurring evidence of the truth of Christianity.

Dr. Matthew Henry said.........
In verse 17 & 18, Observe what power the apostles should be endued with, for confirming the doctrine they were to preach. These were miracles to confirm the truth of the gospel.

Dr. J. Vernon MaGee said..........
"If you want to accept any one of these sign gifts, then you must accept all of them. They are given as a set and not individually so that anyone can pick and choose.

I am going to have to stick with their teaching.

 

[Euphemia]

You are welcome to your opinion my sister.

Dr. John Gill has stated that..........
Verses 17, 18. - Speaking of these "sign gifts", Such evidences were necessary in the first dawn of Christianity, to attract attention to the doctrine; but our Lord's words do not mean that they were to be in perpetuity, as a continually recurring evidence of the truth of Christianity.

Dr. Matthew Henry said.........
In verse 17 & 18, Observe what power the apostles should be endued with, for confirming the doctrine they were to preach. These were miracles to confirm the truth of the gospel.

Dr. J. Vernon MaGee said..........
"If you want to accept any one of these sign gifts, then you must accept all of them. They are given as a set and not individually so that anyone can pick and choose.

I am going to have to stick with their teaching.

I will do the same. Every believer has been given at least one or more of the many spiritual gifts God gives. As scripture says, this is the mark of us as believers...despite what any theologian claims. I stick with what God says.

 

[CCW95A]

Dr. J. Vernon MaGee said..........
"If you want to accept any one of these sign gifts, then you must accept all of them. They are given as a set and not individually so that anyone can pick and choose.

I respect "Dr" MaGee for his work, but just because he has a "Dr" in front of his name means nothing to me. This does not nor will it ever give anyone a head start on Christianity above anyone else, in fact "knowledge" "puff up" and it does not "build up"
I accept ALL the gifts of the Spirit in my life, not that I have them, but I do desire them as the Apostle Paul tells us to.(1 Cor 14:1)
If a Christian does not desire them, then they do not have worry, as they will never experience them in their life until they do.
The Lord will not give you something you don't believe in or want. Our "faith" is what limits what we experience.

 

[CCW95A]

Just curious..........Where did you find that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. I am not debating the comment, just wanting to know where you got that from.

There is no clear text that says Paul wrote the Book of Hebrews, but there are signs that he did. Paul ends all of his Epistles the phrase, "Grace be with you all" which is also done at the end of Hebrews. The mention of "Timothy" was also something Paul talked much about, and so to in Hebrews 13:23. There is a lot of quoting of the Old Testament in Hebrews which Paul would have known about sense he was a "Pharisee". Paul also wrote letters to the Jewish brethren which is confirmed by Peter in, 2 Peter 3:15 who talked about Paul writing to the Jews. These are just few reasons why I believe Paul is the Author of the Book. Who else would have extensive knowledge of the Old Covenant of all the other Apostles?

 

[Major]

There is no clear text that says Paul wrote the Book of Hebrews, but there are signs that he did. Paul ends all of his Epistles the phrase, "Grace be with you all" which is also done at the end of Hebrews. The mention of "Timothy" was also something Paul talked much about, and so to in Hebrews 13:23. There is a lot of quoting of the Old Testament in Hebrews which Paul would have known about sense he was a "Pharisee". Paul also wrote letters to the Jewish brethren which is confirmed by Peter in, 2 Peter 3:15 who talked about Paul writing to the Jews. These are just few reasons why I believe Paul is the Author of the Book. Who else would have extensive knowledge of the Old Covenant of all the other Apostles?

Luke, Barnabus, Apollos, Priscilla and Clemet of Rome have been suggested. Personally I have no clue.

Even early Church tradition teaches that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews, and until the 1800s, that issue was closed.

 

[Major]

I respect "Dr" MaGee for his work, but just because he has a "Dr" in front of his name means nothing to me. This does not nor will it ever give anyone a head start on Christianity above anyone else, in fact "knowledge" "puff up" and it does not "build up"
I accept ALL the gifts of the Spirit in my life, not that I have them, but I do desire them as the Apostle Paul tells us to.(1 Cor 14:1)
If a Christian does not desire them, then they do not have worry, as they will never experience them in their life until they do.
The Lord will not give you something you don't believe in or want. Our "faith" is what limits what we experience.

My use of the letters Dr. is a respectful way of acknowledging their efforts in learning the Word of God, no more and no less.

If you have worked to achieve such an honor I would do the same in respect for you. It does not make one higher or better than anyone else in God's eyes.

 

[Major]

I will do the same. Every believer has been given at least one or more of the many spiritual gifts God gives. As scripture says, this is the mark of us as believers...despite what any theologian claims. I stick with what God says.

Does everyone understand why Mark is the 2nd gospel even though it was the 1st one written?
Mark gives no accounts of anyone seeing Jesus as Matthew, Luke, and John later report. In fact, according to Mark, any future epiphanies or “sightings” of Jesus will be in the north, in Galilee, not in Jerusalem.

But anyway, You misunderstood my comment sister. It has nothing to do with what any theologian says although I do respect those who have worked so hard to be able to explain God's Word. This particular thing has to do with "grammar" and the way it is present in the Greek language.

It is not present as "pick the one you like" which would be a piece, but however it is presented as a "whole". Therefore there is no opportunity to choice the one or two we like and can do. IF they are accepted then they are ALL yours and you will be able to do ALL the sign gifts.