Mark 16:9-20

[Waggles]

Some scholars have raised doubts about the genuineness and inspiration of Mark 16:9-20.

1. Anti-Christ the work of...
2. Whilst many hundreds of original ancient texts were deliberately mutilated by Rome and the Byzantine Church, thousands were not.
Some 85% of the original Greek manuscripts were not - thus we have available to us thousands of complete copies of the gospel of Mark,
all including the so-called controversial endings.
3. The last 12 verses of Mark are consistent in their teachings with Acts and with the Epistles; there are no contradictions.
4. When the Church and Christianity no longer resembled the original Apostolic Church and the gospel of the Pentecost -
believers would speak in tongues as the only sign given in the Scriptures - then the last verses of Mark were a problem.
The Roman and ( later Byzantine Church) were shown up as NOT fulfilling the standard of proof given by Jesus himself.
Hence the verses had to be expunged.
5. Modern scholarship (equates to unbelief) is just again another means by which unbelievers promulgate their own gospels rather than
to submit to the word of God. People argue over these scriptures because they do not want to be obedient to the Word of God.
Populism is rife throughout what passes for christianity these days. (Bible prophecy by Paul to Timothy)
6. The scriptures are true because today throughout the world people are still experiencing the exact same gospel of salvation as began in Acts:
http://miracles.areonthe.net/TESTIMONY Collection/TESTIMONY POSTERS/TESTIMONY Posters/Ben, Adelaide, Australia.pdf
http://miracles.areonthe.net/TESTIMONY Collection/TESTIMONY POSTERS/TESTIMONY Posters/Ame Nyeadeh Zee, Liberia.pdf
7. Bible Numerics (the pattern of arithmetic values given to letters of the Hebrew and Greek alphabets) also completely exonerates and demonstrates the truth and validity of the last 12 versus of Mark.
8. These verses are too challenging for most people - very little wriggle room. You either have these signs following or you don't.
And if you don't, what does that say about your standing with Christ Jesus and his Church??

 

[Waggles]

It appears that all the gospel writers shared with each other their accounts of what Jesus said and did while being among him. It is for sure they copied from each other, and then added other things as the Holy Spirit came upon them.

NO. All Scripture is inspired by God through the Holy Spirit.
The Apostles were not writing a novel or a biography.
The Word of God is given directly by Jesus through the Holy Spirit and every word is inspired, and has value and meaning in its inclusion by Christ.
People wrestle with the Scriptures and argue over the truth or otherwise of words or verses, because of our unbelief and self will.
Disobedience rules. People would rather construct the scriptures to fit their gospels than the other way around.
BIBLE NUMERICS - look up Ivan Panin and Bible Numerics - the arithmetical values given to letters of the original Hebrew and Greek
alphabets seals the Word of God precisely without errors and protects the Scriptures from false entries and the work of Satan.

Textus Receptus (Latin: "received text") is the name given to the succession of printed Greek texts of the New Testament which constituted
the translation base for the original German Luther Bible, the translation of the New Testament into English by William Tyndale,
the King James Version, and most other Reformation- ... (Wikipeadia)

GOD / Jesus has given his Word: first, that by the Word all might come to salvation and live righteously;
second, that we all shall be judged against the Word. For all shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give account.
Therefore the Word cannot contain errors and omissions as some would claim [such as the last 12 verses of Mark] otherwise we can not be held
accountable against the Word. And we could argue that any and every gospel preached is valid and equal.

God's Word is like unto God - perfect and without error. Only Satan and sinful humankind have a problem with the Truth of the Scriptures.

 

[CCW95A]

NO. All Scripture is inspired by God through the Holy Spirit.
The Apostles were not writing a novel or a biography.
The Word of God is given directly by Jesus through the Holy Spirit and every word is inspired, and has value and meaning in its inclusion by Christ.
People wrestle with the Scriptures and argue over the truth or otherwise of words or verses, because of our unbelief and self will.
Disobedience rules. People would rather construct the scriptures to fit their gospels than the other way around.
BIBLE NUMERICS - look up Ivan Panin and Bible Numerics - the arithmetical values given to letters of the original Hebrew and Greek
alphabets seals the Word of God precisely without errors and protects the Scriptures from false entries and the work of Satan.

Textus Receptus (Latin: "received text") is the name given to the succession of printed Greek texts of the New Testament which constituted
the translation base for the original German Luther Bible, the translation of the New Testament into English by William Tyndale,
the King James Version, and most other Reformation- ... (Wikipeadia)

GOD / Jesus has given his Word: first, that by the Word all might come to salvation and live righteously;
second, that we all shall be judged against the Word. For all shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give account.
Therefore the Word cannot contain errors and omissions as some would claim [such as the last 12 verses of Mark] otherwise we can not be held
accountable against the Word. And we could argue that any and every gospel preached is valid and equal.

God's Word is like unto God - perfect and without error. Only Satan and sinful humankind have a problem with the Truth of the Scriptures.

True, all scripture is God breathed, yet God breathed upon men who was the instrument in which he brought forth his Word. Man is still connected to this process in which there is a component of man which shows up in the writing styles that can easily be detected. We all are anointed, but each person in the body of Christ differs in Glory from one another even though it is the same Spirit, and same anointing. The way it comes out of me would be different from how it comes out of anyone else.

 

[Euphemia]

It is not present as "pick the one you like" which would be a piece, but however it is presented as a "whole". Therefore there is no opportunity to choice the one or two we like and can do. IF they are accepted then they are ALL yours and you will be able to do ALL the sign gifts.

Sorry, Major, but your understanding about spiritual gifts is rather impoverished and reeks of denominational influence. You really need to go through the New Testament and discard your denominational flavouring, and allow Holy Spirit to teach you HIS truth about the anointing.

Of course anyone who has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit can expect to be anointed with any or all of the spiritual gifts at any time needed, but we do have one or more already.

 

[Major]

Sorry, Major, but your understanding about spiritual gifts is rather impoverished and reeks of denominational influence. You really need to go through the New Testament and discard your denominational flavouring, and allow Holy Spirit to teach you HIS truth about the anointing.

Of course anyone who has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit can expect to be anointed with any or all of the spiritual gifts at any time needed, but we do have one or more already.

ROFL!!! As a "helper/moderator" I am appalled that you would make such a statement of me. IF I had said anything like that to you I am sure that there would be some kind of warning issued and points given to me. Simply because I disagree with your teachings you seek to lower the bar of communication by making a claim of me not being able to know the difference between the Bible and denominational doctrine.

"My" understanding is impoverished and reeks of denominational influence????? Really???? Because you can not accept the Bible teachings I have presented to you, you choose instead to counter them with a personal attack on my integrity and knowledge and even my faith. I am very disappointed by your comments.

My dear sister, You are a self proclaimed Word of Faith follower which is an off shoot of the Charismatic Pentecostal denomination and you have the nerve to say that I am denominational????

My understanding reeks from the Bible my sister and unlike yourself I do not alter it or change it meet what my denominational teachers require me to do.

 

[Major]

True, all scripture is God breathed, yet God breathed upon men who was the instrument in which he brought forth his Word. Man is still connected to this process in which there is a component of man which shows up in the writing styles that can easily be detected. We all are anointed, but each person in the body of Christ differs in Glory from one another even though it is the same Spirit, and same anointing. The way it comes out of me would be different from how it comes out of anyone else.

That is true my brother. The Bible was written by God "through" men using their personalities and quirks.

 

[Euphemia]

ROFL!!! As a "helper/moderator" I am appalled that you would make such a statement of me. IF I had said anything like that to you I am sure that there would be some kind of warning issued and points given to me. Simply because I disagree with your teachings you seek to lower the bar of communication by making a claim of me not being able to know the difference between the Bible and denominational doctrine.

"My" understanding is impoverished and reeks of denominational influence????? Really???? Because you can not accept the Bible teachings I have presented to you, you choose instead to counter them with a personal attack on my integrity and knowledge and even my faith. I am very disappointed by your comments.

My dear sister, You are a self proclaimed Word of Faith follower which is an off shoot of the Charismatic Pentecostal denomination and you have the nerve to say that I am denominational????

My understanding reeks from the Bible my sister and unlike yourself I do not alter it or change it meet what my denominational teachers require me to do.

I have never said I am WOF. Please forgive me any offense. It"s just that you are in error about the spiritual gifts. Unbelief concerning their open availability to the entire Body of Christ is what is going on here, and to pass on unbelief unchallenged would be a sin for me.

 

[Big Moose]

They say that the Greek word translated “now” that begins v. 9 should link it to what follows, as the use of the word “now” does in the other synoptic Gospels. However, what follows doesn’t continue the story of the women referred to in v. 8, describing instead Jesus’ appearing to Mary Magdalene. There’s no transition there, but rather an abrupt and bizarre change, lacking the continuity typical of Mark’s narrative. The author should be continuing the story of the women based on the word “now,” not jumping to the appearance to Mary Magdalene.

I find the device of using "Now" to move to the next part of the of the storyline, for lack of a better term, not to be out of the style of the rest of Mark. In Mark 15:6, "Now" is used to jump from the interrogation of Jesus to Pilate's tradition of releasing a prisoner to the people. To me, this is just as abrupt.
What some say as the re-introduction of Mary Magdalene, reiterating that Jesus had cast 7 devils or demons from her, could easily be interpreted that this is a reminder to the reader, that this is a teaching moment, something to be learned here. For us, we would have said, "Mary Magdalene, who you may remember had seven demons cast out by Jesus, ....". But for Mark, who is obviously abrupt in his style, "Just the facts, Ma'am" is how he was inspired to write his account. So this is to remind us that, of all the people who would lose faith or be depressed, she had reason to give up and not show up. But just as Jesus taught, those forgiven of more sin, the more love they have.
Luke 7: 47"For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little."

 

[Major]

I have never said I am WOF. Please forgive me any offense. It"s just that you are in error about the spiritual gifts. Unbelief concerning their open availability to the entire Body of Christ is what is going on here, and to pass on unbelief unchallenged would be a sin for me.

No I am not in error. I am in disagreement with your opinion, but that does not make in error to the Word of God.
You have what you think is true but that does not diminish what others believe that is not in line with what you believe.
What is going here is that I would never and have never challenged your knowledge, and or your faith as you did me.
That was just plain wrong and was not done in Christian love or understanding. Because you are a "helper" you have placed yourself in a position where that should not happen........ever!

As for this disagreement being sin. The same would apply to me as well. If someone did not challenge your opinions of Spiritual gifts then it would be the same sin for me as it would be for you. The difference here is that I would not and have never called your opinion or thoughts SIN as you have done to me!!! You have in fact broken the rules of this site!

I have the same right as does everyone else to understand what God has blessed us with in understanding and knowledge that we can make the proper and prayerful choices of what God has given to us in His precious Word. The Bible is clear in Romans 14:5.....
"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth everyday alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind".

That means we are all at different stages of growth and understanding but sin is never in question as you said it was to me because we have different thoughts on a non-essential of the faith.

And YES (Yelling) you have on several occasions aligned yourself with the WoF movement. There is no need to deny this fact as everyone knows it so there is no reason to make such a claim. You bought it so you now own it.

Now then, why would you think that your thinking is any more Biblical than anyone else's. That my sister is "Elitism".

 

[Major]

I find the device of using "Now" to move to the next part of the of the storyline, for lack of a better term, not to be out of the style of the rest of Mark. In Mark 15:6, "Now" is used to jump from the interrogation of Jesus to Pilate's tradition of releasing a prisoner to the people. To me, this is just as abrupt.
What some say as the re-introduction of Mary Magdalene, reiterating that Jesus had cast 7 devils or demons from her, could easily be interpreted that this is a reminder to the reader, that this is a teaching moment, something to be learned here. For us, we would have said, "Mary Magdalene, who you may remember had seven demons cast out by Jesus, ....". But for Mark, who is obviously abrupt in his style, "Just the facts, Ma'am" is how he was inspired to write his account. So this is to remind us that, of all the people who would lose faith or be depressed, she had reason to give up and not show up. But just as Jesus taught, those forgiven of more sin, the more love they have.
Luke 7: 47"For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little."

Good thoughts. I agree.

 

[Euphemia]

No one in their right mind can challenge your faith. You are a man of faith!

I simply am challenging your understanding concerning God's equipping of the saints.

 

[Major]

I think one goes too far concerning words. Jesus gave His body and it was absolutely savagely beaten and torn up so as to be unrecognizable. If that isn't broken, and ripped apart like so much bread, despite the prophetic utterance that no actual bones were broken, what is?

Actually, the Bible manuscripts do not indicate that Christ's body was broken. The King James translators, not realizing the significance of Jesus’ bones remaining unbroken (Exodus 12:46), incorrectly embellished the Greek text. They added the words “which is broken” to the following verse – that are not in the original text. "The Lord Jesus . . . took bread: and when He had given thanks, He brake it, and said, take, eat: this is My body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of Me." (1 Corinthians 11:23-24)

What is the correct translation? This is how the scripture should be correctly rendered according to E. W. Bullinger: "The Lord Jesus . . . took bread: and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, this is My body, for you: this do in remembrance of Me." (1 Corinthians 11:23-24)

 

[Euphemia]

When Jesus took the unleavened bread representing His sinless body and broke it, it was to not only offer it to everyone at the table, as He offered Himself to all of us who would come to His table, but the breaking signifies how broken His body became at the hands of evil men for us.

People go too far with literalness. It is most obvious here that Jesus was broken, despite not one bone being fractured.

 

[Major]

No one in their right mind can challenge your faith. You are a man of faith!

I simply am challenging your understanding concerning God's equipping of the saints.

I can only call it the way I see it and your actual words were...............
"You really need to go through the New Testament and discard your denominational flavouring, and allow Holy Spirit to teach you HIS truth about the anointing."

You can slice it and dice anyway you choose my sister, but those words do in fact bring into question anyone's faith.

I guarantee that "almost everyone"who reads those words will agree that they do exactly that!!!

Now then.........what if I or anyone else said those words to you personally. What kind of conversation would we be having at this very moment???????

If I said to you that if I did not challenge your comments of something, it would be sin for me. Again, what would be YOUR attitude at this very moment??????

 

[Major]

When Jesus took the unleavened bread representing His sinless body and broke it, it was to not only offer it to everyone at the table, as He offered Himself to all of us who would come to His table, but the breaking signifies how broken His body became at the hands of evil men for us.

People go too far with literalness. It is most obvious here that Jesus was broken, despite not one bone being fractured.

John 19:36..........
"For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken."

 

[Euphemia]

John 19:36..........
"For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken."

Correct...as I said.

 

[KingJ]

After having read Mark 16:9-20 a couple times I figure all the verses can be supported with other scripture. Even the sign gifts. We know that Paul did this all.

The argument for me is around this conflict.

Mark 16:19-20 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

Matt 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.

Can we give sign gift to a wicked generation when God says that He will not do it? That is the million dollar question.

The answer is a resounding no. What this means is that miracles / signs happen when and where God ordains it. They are not dependant on our faith.

If we read Acts 28:3-5 we see God in His omniscience ordained that the sign / miracle happen right there and then in front of the onlookers. Paul did not go looking for the snake. Paul did not pray for the wound. Paul did not profess to now have power over snakes. He knew / the onlookers knew that God stepped in and helped him out. The sign 'followed' Paul. Paul did not 'create' the sign.

 

[CCW95A]

After having read Mark 16:9-20 a couple times I figure all the verses can be supported with other scripture. Even the sign gifts. We know that Paul did this all.

The argument for me is around this conflict.

Mark 16:19-20 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

Matt 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.

Can we give sign gift to a wicked generation when God says that He will not do it? That is the million dollar question.

The answer is a resounding no. What this means is that miracles / signs happen when and where God ordains it. They are not dependant on our faith.

If we read Acts 28:3-5 we see God in His omniscience ordained that the sign / miracle happen right there and then in front of the onlookers. Paul did not go looking for the snake. Paul did not pray for the wound. Paul did not profess to now have power over snakes. He knew / the onlookers knew that God stepped in and helped him out. The sign 'followed' Paul. Paul did not 'create' the sign.

Jesus said.......

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Jesus did NOT say, "these signs shall follow them that do these things"

Jesus said, "these signs shall follow them that BELIEVE". The Christian simply believes, and then God works the miracles, through the one who believes.

When "man" does these things Jesus calls it "iniquity", when God does them it is called "righteousness"

 

[KingJ]

8. These verses are too challenging for most people - very little wriggle room. You either have these signs following or you don't. And if you don't, what does that say about your standing with Christ Jesus and his Church??

You can't say this Waggles. What you are saying is that if we are not a Matt 7:22 Christian, we are not in close standing with Jesus and His church. That is 100% heresy.

We are in rightstanding with Jesus becuase we hate what is evil and cling to what is good. Rom 12:9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. James 1:27 explains what Christianity undefiled is, not Matt 7:22.

In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.

I don't believe this is literal at all. These are a few examples of God being with us. There is so much scripture to read with these. Like for example not casting demons out if seven times more will return. Most importantly ''do not tempt God''. It just wasn't feasible for Mark to write '''they will escape car crashes, they will fall off their surfboard and swim with sharks, they will escape a heart attack even though they eat Mcdonalds daily'. Laying hands on the sick and a new tongue does stand out though. Laying hands on the sick is proactive and tongues a sign of God everytime we pray in the spirit. But we are told not to pray if there is no interpreter, or else all will think we are mad. Proving that God is not for the ''signy'' part of tongues. Healing the sick is the only interesting one. But we have killed that discussion on this forum.

 

[KingJ]

Jesus said.......

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Jesus did NOT say, "these signs shall follow them that do these things"

Jesus said, "these signs shall follow them that BELIEVE". The Christian simply believes, and then God works the miracles, through the one who believes.

Believe what? 1. Believe that the God of the universe we liaising with can in fact...cure a snake bite.......

or 2. ''Believe'' as in we are believers in Jesus. We believe He was raisied from the dead and that He has us on earth because He wills it and no snake can object to it.