Mary, Mother of Jesus?

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#21
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23
 
#22
Goodness me, I did not mean to spark a theological debate!

For the record the Catholics don't say we "need" to intercede to Mary. Merely that she is a soul in heaven who can pray for us.

I suppose what you say makes sense. However reverence for Mary is never given without Jesus. She needed a savior, and hence that is why God made her sinless. Her immaculate conception, and sinless nature makes no sense but for the fact of her being a vehicle for bearing our Lord. As a vessel for Christ, it stands to reason she'd be somewhat distinct, or "Blessed among all women".

And surely she was "Mother of God" not in the sense that she brought God himslef (Triune remember) into existence, but rather delivered one aspect of himslef into this world?

Remember, Jesus was fully God and fully man. You cannot seperate one from the other. She was mother to God the son, the same way any woman is mother to a son, or so it seems to me.
Her immaculate conception not only makes no sense . It is blasphemy by making her equal with God or with Jesus .
God only promised ONE person and he was to eb male in the garden of Eden who would be in effect sinless by not being of Adams seed.
Being blesssed among women does noit make her sinless . Nor born without sin nor dying without sin or dying still a virgin as she had children by Joseph after the birth of Jesus .
Nope she was not the mother of God ever . She was the mother of the MAN of his flesh .
The title of 'mother of God' has no basiss in scripture , nor has any theological sense .
and simply takes the truth that Jesus was fully man and was God manifested in the flesh.

It is because he was a man that he was born of a woman .
But no woman can conceive a child by herself .
and she cannot give 'life' to the baby .
Nor does the blood of the unborn child have anything to do with the mother.
She was the mother of Jesus the man .
and in once sense he was not "declared to be the Son of God" till he rose again from the dead.
and to be the mother of God would mean she still had authority over him even after hius baptism.
this too is denied by scripture.

But Rome will keep pressing and propagating her grave errors thought disproved as far back as the reformation . Both by biblical argument and her reaction to any "correction or reproof"

in Christ
gerald
 
Amens/Likes: TrueChristian1990
#23
^ In what way does the RCC make Mary equal to God? She definitly is not. And how does one go about seperating the divine and human natures of Jesus? A key tenant of Christianity is that Jesus was fully both, and the word needed to be "made flesh."

I am fairly sure that Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God fairly often during his life, referring to God as "his father in heaven." What do you make of his "But who do you say that I am?" discourse to Peter?

What do you mean by the woman not giving any blood to the conceived fetus? I believe when a baby is conceived, it takes on the DNA of both father and mother (miraculous conceptions not withstanding.)

What do you make of Gabriels announcement to Mary? "Hail full of Grace the Lord is with thee?" What did it mean when he said she was "full of grace" and "highly favored?"
Moreover, what is idolotrous about the following prayer?

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst all women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen"

In Christ, TrueChristian1990
 
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Fish Catcher Jim

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#24
My aplogies .
In passing your remark that God needs our permission before he does somethings .Needs an explanation.
For the only thing that I can think of that if it can be said as such ;he needs 'permision' ( a bad turn of phrase I think) from us is that we must be willing to let Him work in us according to His will.
In all other things he needs no permission at all.
and even in this no man should think that he has power over God .
"For the heart of the king is in Gods hands"
and God needed no permission at all to enter the feasting hall of Balthezar and write upon the wall his doom.
For God is God. and in wisdom he has created all things . and he is God and we are man .
and the Cross is not God asking permission. It is repent or perish. For man now has no excuse if he ever had one .

in Christ
gerald
Brother Gerald,
Salvation must be done only if we ask.........This is only an example.
We give God permission in many different ways. By doing what His word says and knowing what His word says. There are Kingdom laws to follow or another words once we get into the kingdom of God ( Gods ways of doing things or how we need to operate )

There is the Law of Faith for an example........ There are many aspects in the area of Faith.
There are many things (Commands) we must obey and follow and put forth into action if we want to see our Faith produce the desired result we seek.

Psalm 115:16 - The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Look at this above........the earth He HAS Given to man. He placed before us 2 choices from the get go.
Deuteronomy 30:19.... I ( GOD ) call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

If a person chooses any other way then Gods set way - then God is not responsible to Get Involved in any of their affairs.

Now then if a person chooses Gods ways then YES God is Responsible unto His own word.
However - this is Key here Brother........... There are kingdom laws governing this entire deal or the kingdom of God.

When we put forth His word - we put into action these kingdom laws. If we monkey with them - like well this is what I think about it or I just dont see why that would work that way - NOW we have hindered Gods ability to ACT in any given situation.

A spirit filled believer that is born again has inherited the promises of God. These promises are ours by right ( birth right ) However they just do Not go forth on our behalf just because we have inherited them. No Sir !! Even though Jesus dies on the cross for our salvation - We Still Had To Ask -

It is the same with His promises - He has set forth Kingdom Laws that which Govern His word or ways or will.
1. Quick easy example......Mark 11:25 When "we" stand praying - (Forgive) - if we have - (Ought Against ANY) - That Your Father which is in Heaven (( MAY )) forgive ( you ) ( your ) trespasses.
This is not a when you can or if you can or Brother Jim if you knew what they said about me and whas they did to me you would not ask me to forgive them........ well Ok but I am not BUT God is Commanding You Too...

This is a kingdom law - ignore this - make excuses for this - eventually you will will find your prayer life dwindling down and your Faith not producing the results you desire. His entire Will (word) for man is full of Kingdom Laws. You can pray and claim all you want but if you are not doing what His word says or another words living as His word says - then you limit the involvement God can do.

This includes area's where we must ask - or believe - we must speak His word - it goes on and on. With out actually walking under Kingdom law - you limit what God can do for and in your situation. It is as easy as that.
God Bless
Jim
 
Amens/Likes: Major and Cturtle

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#25
^ In what way does the RCC make Mary equal to God? She definitly is not. And how does one go about seperating the divine and human natures of Jesus? A key tenant of Christianity is that Jesus was fully both, and the word needed to be "made flesh."

I am fairly sure that Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God fairly often during his life, referring to God as "his father in heaven." What do you make of his "But who do you say that I am?" discourse to Peter?

What do you mean by the woman not giving any blood to the conceived fetus? I believe when a baby is conceived, it takes on the DNA of both father and mother (miraculous conceptions not withstanding.)

What do you make of Gabriels announcement to Mary? "Hail full of Grace the Lord is with thee?" What did it mean when he said she was "full of grace" and "highly favored?"
Moreover, what is idolotrous about the following prayer?

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst all women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen"

In Christ, TrueChristian1990
You may want to take this up in a pm with someone you feel comfortable with, or even a few people. Just don't want anyone to get into trouble :) or anyone offended
God bless
 
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Amens/Likes: Major
#26
Friends, I do apologize.
I do not follow the Catholic faith, was merely trying to play "Devil's Advocate" (pardon the expression!)

I just wanted to explore "both sides" of an issue, but I see this has caused discord.

We have to remember that all of us on this forum love Jesus, more than anything else, and we should avoid conversations or entertaining thoughts that could detract from that love.

Geralduk, I see I caused you much distress in for that I sincerely apologize.
 
#27
Brother Gerald,
Salvation must be done only if we ask.........This is only an example.
We give God permission in many different ways. By doing what His word says and knowing what His word says. There are Kingdom laws to follow or another words once we get into the kingdom of God ( Gods ways of doing things or how we need to operate )

There is the Law of Faith for an example........ There are many aspects in the area of Faith.
There are many things (Commands) we must obey and follow and put forth into action if we want to see our Faith produce the desired result we seek.

Psalm 115:16 - The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Look at this above........the earth He HAS Given to man. He placed before us 2 choices from the get go.
Deuteronomy 30:19.... I ( GOD ) call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

If a person chooses any other way then Gods set way - then God is not responsible to Get Involved in any of their affairs.

Now then if a person chooses Gods ways then YES God is Responsible unto His own word.
However - this is Key here Brother........... There are kingdom laws governing this entire deal or the kingdom of God.

When we put forth His word - we put into action these kingdom laws. If we monkey with them - like well this is what I think about it or I just dont see why that would work that way - NOW we have hindered Gods ability to ACT in any given situation.

A spirit filled believer that is born again has inherited the promises of God. These promises are ours by right ( birth right ) However they just do Not go forth on our behalf just because we have inherited them. No Sir !! Even though Jesus dies on the cross for our salvation - We Still Had To Ask -

It is the same with His promises - He has set forth Kingdom Laws that which Govern His word or ways or will.
1. Quick easy example......Mark 11:25 When "we" stand praying - (Forgive) - if we have - (Ought Against ANY) - That Your Father which is in Heaven (( MAY )) forgive ( you ) ( your ) trespasses.
This is not a when you can or if you can or Brother Jim if you knew what they said about me and whas they did to me you would not ask me to forgive them........ well Ok but I am not BUT God is Commanding You Too...

This is a kingdom law - ignore this - make excuses for this - eventually you will will find your prayer life dwindling down and your Faith not producing the results you desire. His entire Will (word) for man is full of Kingdom Laws. You can pray and claim all you want but if you are not doing what His word says or another words living as His word says - then you limit the involvement God can do.

This includes area's where we must ask - or believe - we must speak His word - it goes on and on. With out actually walking under Kingdom law - you limit what God can do for and in your situation. It is as easy as that.
God Bless
Jim
Jim
Notwithstanding what you have said .
If a husband or wife 'withdraws' him or herself from the other. Paul says they "rob each other"
A husband or wife need not the others "permission " as it is already given as it were when they got married .

I also have great difilculty in seeign where God gave man a choice to do good or evil.
True the verse you quote AFTER the fall "I put before you life and death .choose life"
But that simply reveals again gods eternal will even form the begiining. That Gods eternal will for man is that he should live and not die .
In the beginning I see nowhere that gid gave them a choice to eat of the good or as it were eat of the evil. To do good or evil.
What God gave man was the true liberty of children of God (by creation) of choosing whatever good he could find or think to do.
"Of all the trees in the garden ye may freely eat" This then included the tree of life .
That is mans TRUE choices.
For man was created for the light as he was also created not to "LIVE by bread alone (or bye very tree that was good to eat) but by every Word that goes forth out of Gods mouth"
He was not CREATED either for the darnkess or for doing evil.
It is after the fall that he is now more a child of darkness than he is of the light .
in THAT regard then by his fallen NATURE he has no choice at at all and deludes himself if eh thinks he has a free will.
For as Paul teaches it while he may KNOW what is good to do . he has not the POWER to do it .
For sin now reigns and the law of sin and death.
When a person is truly BORN again he does but enter that eternal will of God even form the beginning.
and by walking by faith he can do any good he has a mind or think to do .
But he has not the liberty ' to do evil for it is no longer "convenient."
For God did not give Adam the liberty to eat of the tree that wouldf brign them death but the liberty in the time apposinted to partake of the tree of life!
So then now if we are His.
What I suppose I object to is mans insistance that God is his lapdog. as it were. and I dont thionk that was what you was saying or desiring to say.
But in saying God needs "our permission " It allows for all sorts of mischief of the devil.
For oen thing I see nowhere in scripture that says Jesus needed ANY mans permission to do anything .
Let alone the devils who counted then and rightly so all the kingdoms of this world HIS !
and man subject to death and the wholoe w orld lieth in the hands of the wicked one.
I love the fact that Jesus depsite all the forces of hell and of men sometimes and often demanding the Lord conform to them and thier thinking . He did nto come to do thier will nor his mothers .But the will of Him thats ent him and therefore needed the permission of no one .
In the instances when it appeared he did so. Actually it was men conformed to HIM that they recieved what they did . Not when eh conformed to them.
So I object to the idea that God needs any mans permission.
For God is God and is so justly, righteously so . and is the only one WORTHY of the name GOD.
Thus in the salvation of a mans soul.
He by CREATION was built or created for the light .
God did not need our permission to create us . Nor did anyone need it when we are BORN.
By our fallen nature we are as children of darkness and citizens as it were by birth "born into a kingdom of darkness"
People think they have free will .
That depends what a man calls freedom.
For whos will did Eves do?
Certainly her own.
But ultimately whos? Gopds or the devils?
and whos will do men do now?
Are we not once as all men were "childfren of disobedience"?
Men have NO choice as you would have it for by the sin that now rules in them they choose to do what is right or good in thjier own eyes . For like Eve when she rejected the truth . She believed the lie and once she believed the lie she became blind to the truth and thus "SAW that it was good to eat " and reasoned thius" it would make her wise"
This is not the place to discuss 'free will' etc.
But I am simply showing that in of and by ourselves we are lost and undone with no hope at all.
God did not need our permission to send Jesus Christ .
Nor needed he the devils to send him to the earth.
He chose to do so of HIS own free will.
and there was and is no power in heaven on earth or in hell that can stop that will beign carried out .
Not only because God is God . But because they or anybody cannot JUSTLY do so .
For the earth is the Lords and all the fullness thereof .
"They that sat in darkness have seen a great light" Paul quoted (Hebrews)
The sun needs not our pemission to shine nor indeed the moon.
if we choose to hide from its light . We should not be foolish to think we have not given God permission .
But rather we are condmened " for lovign the darknes smore than the light "
For while we were in darkness we may have thought we had some excuse. But once the light has come we and all men have none .
This again is developing into a long post. Not that i would wish it . But simply the subject of "permission" is actually rather a deep one and needs a proper response and why I need to express it eevn if I had not so expressed it before .
The days are coming when "if it was p;ossible even the very elect would be decieved " I would not have it that even indirectly I would decieve any one.
and that "we may all come to a unioty of the faith etc............"

In Christ
gerald
 
Amens/Likes: Coop
#28
Jesus is Lord not Mary for there is no one who you can be saved. Mary didn't die for you on the cross. Mary didn't rise from the dead. There is no assumption of Mary into heaven in the Bible. She is still in the grave until the last day. So you prays are to a a cold dead woman simple as this Jesus saves not Mary. Why can't you Catholics understand this. You have to hold onto you upbringing which may have false teaching but obviously you can't stand hearing g the Truth. Jesus said he is the way the truth and life. I'm sure he add his mother if it was important. Give you your false doctrine Follow him
 
#29
Friends, I do apologize.
I do not follow the Catholic faith, was merely trying to play "Devil's Advocate" (pardon the expression!)

I just wanted to explore "both sides" of an issue, but I see this has caused discord.

We have to remember that all of us on this forum love Jesus, more than anything else, and we should avoid conversations or entertaining thoughts that could detract from that love.

Geralduk, I see I caused you much distress in for that I sincerely apologize.
I do not think we should avoid conversations or subjects that some would counts as controversal .
One of the great errors of this daya dn age is the idea that people should not talk about religion or politic fro they tend to raise up disagreements etc.
But they are the two things that effect peopels lives the most and its thier neglect that has allowed the decline in good religious thought and perceptions as well as political corruption and indifference.
" Wickedness abounds on every side when vile men are exalted" Psalm 12.

So while I am neither afarid or disuaded from speaking on such matters because for others it is a 'senstive ' issue .
It is a 'senstive ' issue because we are in a reverse reformaation and old errors are being propagated and in many cases acepted to the dfetrement of any mans faith and life .
I am also of the conviction that each man must be fully persuaded in their own minds and on such subjects as to the claims of Rome etc you should endevour by the grace of God to be as objective as possible and look at the claims if needs be with as sober a mind and clear eye as possible.
But I do not advocate that we should ever give or allow the devil airtime as it were or raise a religious debate that even as at the beginning allows him to propagate his lies and sow confusion.
Far better then to speak the truth and be an advocate for the |lord as it were than to be one for the devil.
One should not presume that every one in these forums " love Jesus more than any thign else " or that every question asked is asked as a seeker of light . Was not the first question ever aksed and recorded in scripture " Yea hath God said...........?"
It is always profitable if possible to read the biblical arguments of the reformers as to these age old questions and to see not only how they argued the case in defence of the Gospel as well as against the errors of men .
But in following thier arguments may not only reach the same conclsusions but be firmly establsihed in them.
That men still hold to those errors and with great sublety still seek to propagate them. Does not make them any less true .
A lie remains a lie no matter how long people have beleived it .
But the church which is the church has moved on from there a long ways having left the beggarly things of this world .
I find it amazing that accordign to some they with thier so little understanding they were able to turn the world upside down to good effect .
Yet they who boast to day in thier "better understanding " do so little and are embracing the great errors so long ago rejected .

In Christ
gerald
 
#30
^ In what way does the RCC make Mary equal to God? She definitly is not. And how does one go about seperating the divine and human natures of Jesus? A key tenant of Christianity is that Jesus was fully both, and the word needed to be "made flesh."

I am fairly sure that Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God fairly often during his life, referring to God as "his father in heaven." What do you make of his "But who do you say that I am?" discourse to Peter?

What do you mean by the woman not giving any blood to the conceived fetus? I believe when a baby is conceived, it takes on the DNA of both father and mother (miraculous conceptions not withstanding.)

What do you make of Gabriels announcement to Mary? "Hail full of Grace the Lord is with thee?" What did it mean when he said she was "full of grace" and "highly favored?"
Moreover, what is idolotrous about the following prayer?

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst all women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen"

In Christ, TrueChristian1990
he actualy did not often say if at all publicly he was the Son of God . He often said the Son of man .
and while he declared often that God was his father . That is not the same per se as saying he was the Son of God . Not that he or I deny it .
Under oath at his trial he was asked specifically if he was the Son of God ?
Note the way he replied and it was the only way he could . For he came not to declare himself but the Father . " Thou sayest it .
He was" declared to be the Son of God by rising from the dead "

It would be better if people read other peoples post more carefully.
I stated why the church at Rome error that she was born sinless made her equal with God fro by your own reasoning as jesus was the Son of God and was therefore equal with God only he was born sinless . if then you make Mary born sinless as well you make her equal with God.
While I am by the grace of God now a son of God .I am not equal with God.
Even though I am a begotten son of God . I am not the ONLY begotten Son of God.
I am begotten again through Jesus Christ . Prais God and a new creation.
He is the only begotten Son of God the FIRST born of a new creation.
He by birth me by "adoption" would be another way to say it .
Mary then could not be born sinless .On two grounds.
There is no scripture in ALL of scripture to support such an assertion nor is it even theologicaly possible and for a third I suggest you look at her geneology that IS stated in scripture .
The blood of the child is determined by the father not the mother .
The bible states the life is in the blood .
If Maries blood was in anyway 'involved' then her life which is after the first Adams would make the Lord a sinner .
Which he was not neither in act or in birth or born in sin and shapen in iniquity .
Jesus himself said hsi TRUE mother were "they who did the will of God "
That beign so . You will have to apply your reasoning to that also . For if I am his true mother how does your argument apply?
For if your argument was based upon Biblical truth then it would also apply to me .
But my blood has no bearing on me beign a son of God.
For I am not BORNagain " by the will of blood " ...... etc
But if I or a man is truly doign the will fo God then by Jesus I am hsi true mother .
If that is the case it is not my blood that matters but HIS!
The blood then of the child can be direct opposite of the mother. So much so that if they mixed in anyw ay the mother would die .So too the child.
Do not say this is not say this is not true as my wife had a blood group very different from mine and there was some concern over the life of our first born and care was needed both in the gestation and the birth .
But over and above that the scriptures clearly teach "The life is in the blood "
The life then that flowed in the Lords veins was the life of his father .
The life that flowed in Maries veins was the life of her father .
For Jesus was BORN of God .
Mary was born of Adam.
So what you or I believe is of no matter .It is what the scriptures say that matters most of all.
and our beliefs must or should coinicide with what God says and not what man says .
Ihave noticed that we have changed to the DNA. rather than the blood .
I hold that Gods word is above "so called "science , and while I do not deny the matters of DNA I will not nor can deny the truth of scripture.
So as the scriptures are always right what am I to do?
Understand the man does not know as much about DNA as he thinks he does and if he acts according to what he thinks he knows it will be to his undoing.
God on the other hand knows the end from the beginning .
and as he knows full well that the woman does not have the seed but the man .("The womans seed") for we are MAN kind not woman kind . For it is the m,an who has the seed not the woman .
For man was created out of the dust of the earth not the woman .
and the woman was created out of the body of the man .
Yet to teach and to show that this ONE ("IT") male ("HE") male child would be a man he was was born of a woman but NOT of Adams seed . Wisdom dictated he said "the seed of the woman.......... "
For we are all including Maryn are of Adams seed ,Born in sin and shapen in iquity " are born in the image of our father .Adam.
and thus like all men "sons of disobedience"
But Jesus "who is the express image of the invisible God " is the second and last Adam the first born of a new creation .
One that is born without sin and so like a seed "that falleth into the ground and dies brings forth much fruit" "after its own kind"
Bearing also the image of God For not only does Christ dwell in our hearts by faith but hsi seed remains in us.
Full of GRACE . Grace beign the unmeritted favour of God .

if she was sinless then would she have merited ? and therefore have no need of grace ?

As to your last comment .it is a half truth at best .
For on the face of it and to all appearences who can fault it ?
But man looketh on the apearance God looketh on the heart.
and it is what goes with it that makes it idolitory and a ruin to any man soul living or about to die .
Dont tell me this is not so either .
For I have been with a person soon to die . Whos blind obedience to Rome and clinging on to that false belief in Mary ensured that when she died if she so died she is now in hell.
and while my expereince is not the foundation fro any man .
You will have to understand that both by scripture and in life I have seen in both, the error and what it does and the consequences that Rome teaches.
Truly did Jesus speak of it "If your light be darkness how great is your darkness "

In Christ
gerald
 
#31
Having him look into it for himself and decide for himself is lopsided? I would hate to see your notion of independent.
I do not support Sola Scriptura (neither does Scripture) so your arguments are invalid.
All that you state is "your opinion and your point of view" so again , argument invalid.
The word "Trinity" is not in the Scriptures but as a Catholic you believe in the Trinity. The Bible does teach implicitly and logically, if not formally and explicitly, that the Bible alone is the only infallible basis for faith and practice.

The fact that Scripture, without tradition, is said to be “God-breathed” (theopnuestos) and thus by it believers are “competent, equipped for every good work” as seen in 2 Tim. 3:16-17 supports the doctrine of sola Scriptura.

This of course flies in the face of the Catholic claim that the Bible is formally insufficient without the aid of tradition. Paul declares that the God-breathed writings are sufficient. And contrary to your belief and some Catholic apologists, limiting this to only the Old Testament will not help the Catholic cause for two reasons:

First.........
The New Testament is also called “Scripture” in 2 Pet. 3:15-16; 1 Tim. 5:18; cf. Luke 10:7.

Second.....
It is inconsistent to argue that God-breathed writings in the Old Testament are sufficient, but the inspired writings of the New Testament are not. Further, Jesus and the apostles constantly appealed to the Bible as the final court of appeal. This they often did by the introductory phrase, “It is written,” which is repeated some 90 times in the New Testament.
 
Amens/Likes: Fish Catcher Jim
#32
Goodness me, I did not mean to spark a theological debate!

For the record the Catholics don't say we "need" to intercede to Mary. Merely that she is a soul in heaven who can pray for us.

I suppose what you say makes sense. However reverence for Mary is never given without Jesus. She needed a savior, and hence that is why God made her sinless. Her immaculate conception, and sinless nature makes no sense but for the fact of her being a vehicle for bearing our Lord. As a vessel for Christ, it stands to reason she'd be somewhat distinct, or "Blessed among all women".

And surely she was "Mother of God" not in the sense that she brought God himslef (Triune remember) into existence, but rather delivered one aspect of himslef into this world?

Remember, Jesus was fully God and fully man. You cannot seperate one from the other. She was mother to God the son, the same way any woman is mother to a son, or so it seems to me.
Mary could not have been sinless my dear friend as the Bible says in Romans 3:23......."ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

Please notice that nowhere in the Bible is Mary said to be the mother of God.

To make Mary sinless means that we must remove that verse along with many more to make it match your thinking. Are you willing to do that?

The purpose of the phrase....."Mary the mother of God" originally was meant to emphasize the deity of Christ over against the teaching of the Nestorians whose teaching involved a dual-natured Jesus. Their teaching was that the person born of Mary was only a man who was then indwelt by God. The title "Mother of God" was used originally to counter this false doctrine.

The doctrine now as we see in Catholic teachings emphasizes the person of Mary rather than the deity of Jesus as God incarnate. Mary certainly did not give birth to God. In fact, Mary did not give birth to the divinity of Christ. Mary only gave birth to the humanity of Jesus. The only thing Jesus got from Mary was a body. Every Human Being has received a sinful nature from their parents with one exception: Jesus was not human. He was divine God in a flesh body. This is what Mary gave birth to.
Read Hebrews 10:5 ............
"...Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me."

The body of Jesus was prepared by God. In Matthew 1:18 we see this...........
"she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."

The divine nature of Jesus existed from before eternity, and this cannot be said of Mary who Jesus never called her "mother". He called her "woman".

This doctrine of a sinless Mary deifies Mary and humanizes Jesus. Mary is presented as stronger that Christ, more mature and more powerful that Christ. Listen to this statement by Rome: "He came to us through Mary, and we must go to Him through her." The Bible plainly states that God is the Creator of all things and HE is the one and only mediator between God and man, the MAN CHRIST JESUS!!!
 

Glomung

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#33
The Bible does teach implicitly and logically, if not formally and explicitly, that the Bible alone is the only infallible basis for faith and practice.
It does no such thing.
Paul states plainly that the CHURCH is the bastion and pillar or truth.
He states that we are to use scripture AND tradition.

2 Tim. 3:16-17 supports the doctrine of sola Scriptura.

Timothy does NOT support sola scriptura it states that the OT is useful, that was the ONLY scripture that existed at the time.
 
#34
It would be more accurate to say that "you will believe what you believe regardless of what scripture says".
My dear friend......I am ROFL!
I have read your comments for a long time now and I have nothing at all against you, but for you to say to anyone that..............
"you will believe what you believe regardless of what scripture says":

is one of the most hilarious things I have seen posted on this forum.
 
Amens/Likes: Fish Catcher Jim
#35
It does no such thing.
Paul states plainly that the CHURCH is the bastion and pillar or truth.
He states that we are to use scripture AND tradition.


Timothy does NOT support sola scriptura it states that the OT is useful, that was the ONLY scripture that existed at the time.
God bless my Catholic friend, but in this case you are very wrong.

1 Corth. 4:6............
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other."

It is very hard to argue those words from Paul.

Scripture teaches us that............
"upon this rock I will build My church" (Mt 16:18)
"do not say 'I am of Peter'" (1 Cor 1:10)
"as gardeners and builders... each man must be careful how he builds on it." (1 Cor 3:10)
"I used the gardener and builder figures to that you learn not to exceed what is written" (1 Cor 4:6)
Jesus intended his church to built upon scripture, not Peter or oral traditions.
 
#36
It does no such thing.
Paul states plainly that the CHURCH is the bastion and pillar or truth.
He states that we are to use scripture AND tradition.


Timothy does NOT support sola scriptura it states that the OT is useful, that was the ONLY scripture that existed at the time.
His Word is absolutely sufficient in itself.

Psalm 119:160........
"All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal."

When did that change????

The Biblical message breathed out by God is revelation in written form which is exactly what 2 Timothy 3:15-16 confirms. The Biblical claim is that what God has inspired was His written word which is what we see in 2 Peter 1:20-21.

Glo....When the Lord Jesus Christ said in John 10:35......
the Scripture cannot be broken” : what part of that is so confusing so as not to be understood?????

He was speaking of God’s written word. The events, actions, commandments, and truths from God are given to us in propositional form, i.e. logical, written sentences. God’s declaration in Scripture is that it and it alone, is this final authority in all matters of faith and morals.

Thus, there is only one written source from God, and there is only one basis of truth for the Lord’s people in the Church.
 
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Amens/Likes: Fish Catcher Jim
#38
Believe what you like, scripture does not support it.
LOL!!.......It has nothing to do whatsoever with what I think but everything to do with what the Bible says, which is why I posted the Scriptures for you to see.

God love you my brother but this is exactly why I said that your comment of............
"you will believe what you believe regardless of what scripture says".........was so funny!!!!

That phrase is exactly what you believe!!! YOU will believe what YOU want no matter what you are shown in the Scriptures.
 
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Amens/Likes: Fish Catcher Jim
#39
Friends, I do apologize.
I do not follow the Catholic faith, was merely trying to play "Devil's Advocate" (pardon the expression!)

I just wanted to explore "both sides" of an issue, but I see this has caused discord.

We have to remember that all of us on this forum love Jesus, more than anything else, and we should avoid conversations or entertaining thoughts that could detract from that love.

Geralduk, I see I caused you much distress in for that I sincerely apologize.
That is a very nice thing to say. It is very difficult for some people to see beyond something that they hold dear and be objective in doing so, that is for sure.

As for Gerald, honestly, it doesn't take a whole lot to get him wound up.

Nice to have you here, I hope you will stay and keep on contributing.
 

Glomung

Account Closed
#40
LOL!!.......It has nothing to do whatsoever with what I think but everything to do with what the Bible says, which is why I posted the Scriptures for you to see.

God love you my brother but this is exactly why I said that your comment of............
"you will believe what you believe regardless of what scripture says".........was so funny!!!!

That phrase is exactly what you believe!!! YOU will believe what YOU want no matter what you are shown in the Scriptures.
Major, I'm not going to get into this argument with you, because it is a complete waste of time.
Nothing I could say, nor any scripture I could point out will change your mind.
We will have to agree to disagree.
 
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