Mary, Mother Of The Lamb(flesh) Of God, Not Mother Of God

It is hard for non-Catholics to understand the devotion to Mary. I am not the biggest Marian. I pray to Mary for help and comfort, I say the Rosary, but I am not as devoted as many of my brothers and sisters. I pray to a whole host of saints, rather than a firm dedication to any one. Yet, the impact of Mary within the Christian tradition is too great to be ignored. Marian devotion of some kind or another pulses throughout the history of the Christian faith. For those of us who believe in the sacredness of tradition, Marian devotion leads to a fuller, more concrete spiritual life. It is important that we come to think of God in a myriad of metaphors, and Mary provides us with the image of the loving, merciful mother.
 
Just like sports, hollywood, music and so many other things have become idolatrous worship so is maryism......
John MacArthur is an angry old man, who is quite intellectually inept, if you ask me honestly. I grew up listening to MacArthur, so even though I am not a Calvinist (which is quite the heresy, if you ask me again, that mocks the sacrifice of Christ and turns God into a monster), I know a lot about the theology and about the MacArthurian theology specifically. I think he is a dogmatic, unintelligent, self-righteous Pharisee. MacArthur has no defense of his propositions besides assuming them a priori. If you must listen to Calvinists, I recommend R.C. Sproul. I may disagree with him, but he is not a bigot and he is actually intelligent.
 
I'd like to add that there probably are Catholics who misguidedly worship Mary. I don't know how common it is, but it's something that should not be done as it goes directly against Church teaching as instructed by His Word.

This could also be said for the occasional Protestant who worships the Bible rather than treating it as God-breathed written word. Most Protestants know not to and don't, but it's a misguided action that should be addressed.

But Mary SHOULD be venerated.
 
Mary was a willing vessel to carry the Son of God..........
Mary DID NOT give birth to the God that was IN Christ...Nobody gave birth to God.
Jesus had a dual nature: Earthly = son of man and Heavenly or Divine= Son of God. Mary gave birth to the human body of Jesus.
As man Jesus was born, He hungered, He wept, and He died.
As God Jesus forgave sins, opened blinded eyes, cause the lame to walk, turned water to wine, cast out demons, He rose again.
Let's clairify when the NAME of Jesus is used are you speaking about when He was a man in His earthly ministry or now, or even before the incarnation.
Mary could NOT have given birth to our eternal God......Where did the Jews mention this ? She did NOT give birth to Jehovah, the God of Issac, Jacob, and Abraham.
John 4:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


Brother David, do you believe in the divine trinity? That the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three in one? Christ was never at one point ONLY man -- ever since his conception by the Holy Spirit, he was both God and man.
 
With all due respect, because Mary was not the wife of Jesus, this isn't sound criteria to say she wasn't. If Jesus was the new Adam, but we're going off of the model of marital vocation, than either Jesus had to be married or Jesus was not the new Adam. Of course Jesus wasn't married and He was indeed the new Adam, so the criteria falls apart.

No sir, sorry, it does not. Adam was Adam when not married, before there was an Eve, so Jesus could be the last Adam without having to be married. So Adam was Adam when Eve was not, and when she was, she was Adam's wife.

And of course Jesus obeyed His mother when He was a child (He was still under the Law), but not at all when He was a man (officiating in His role as God with us, Messiah, she obeyed Him). This would have discredited Him immediately in everyone's eyes. The eldest Son (and I believe in their case her only child) was always the lord of the household and family after the father's death. He would certainly have given His mother all due respect and honored her deeply, but no, not obeyed her...He had His Father's work to do.
 
I'd like to add that there probably are Catholics who misguidedly worship Mary. I don't know how common it is, but it's something that should not be done as it goes directly against Church teaching as instructed by His Word.

This could also be said for the occasional Protestant who worships the Bible rather than treating it as God-breathed written word. Most Protestants know not to and don't, but it's a misguided action that should be addressed.


You are correct LS (and I am not a Roman Catholic) in both cases! It is not official interpretation of the RCC to worship Mary (though many lay people do without being corrected), also it is not appropriate to worship the Bible (the Letter) or hold it as equal to God Himself (though God and His word are one). On another note...Shapiro is an Israelite name is it not...you do know that, correct? Somewhere one of the lost sheep of Israel embraced Christ in your lineage...that was the first commanded objective of the Apostles. I know you are also European, but the reason I mention it is because some my ancestors were Ashkenazi so I find this connection interesting because in Genesis when it is translated that Ephraim (Joseph's son) would become "a multitude of nations" (melo ha'Goyim), Paul translates the same passage though through the LXX translation as "the fulness of the Gentiles" (same wording in the Greek between Paul and the LXX of Genesis 48). Jacob actually says to Joseph that Ephraim shall become a "fulness of the Gentiles".

I am not saying this makes us any more special then any other person who comes to Christ (Hallelujah, we are all equals at the foot of the cross) but it is just a curiosity of prophetic implication that few are even aware of. Do the word studies, check it out.
 
I'd like to add that there probably are Catholics who misguidedly worship Mary. I don't know how common it is, but it's something that should not be done as it goes directly against Church teaching as instructed by His Word.

This could also be said for the occasional Protestant who worships the Bible rather than treating it as God-breathed written word. Most Protestants know not to and don't, but it's a misguided action that should be addressed.

But Mary SHOULD be venerated.
There is alot more to God than protestant and catholic......some do not have their roots in either but rather go back to the Bible and teach strictly what the first century church taught, without the man-made creeds, councils and idolatrous rituals.
 
Anything perfect and divine coming from imperfect sinful flesh is ridiculous......

The perfect and divine did not come FROM flesh (and even the RCCs would not say that) for that would be ridiculous, but the perfect and divine decided He would come THROUGH the flesh..and Himself IN the flesh...

When a baby is born it is a person (God's plan if you wish to argue with Him) not just a body. God provided the spirit and Mary provided the egg. In Jesus the Divine and human are one person. In Christ, God provided Himself the Lamb for the offering. The PERSON born through Mary was Immanu-El. If God with us is not God that is new to me...now I am NOT saying Mary preceded and birthed her own Creator (so no false accusation please)...but Christ, the God-man, was a person (just one, not a Divine person plus but separate from a physical person). Think on this...

And brother David there is wisdom in what you just said in your last post, so don't get me wrong...if Jesus was God and He was born of Mary then there is a sense in which she birthed God (abeit He obviously existed before being birthed incarnate)
 
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The perfect and divine did not come FROM flesh (and even the RCCs would not say that) but THOUGH flesh...when a baby is born it is a person (God's plan if you wish to argue with Him) not just a body. God provided the spirit and Mary provided the egg. In Jesus the Divine and human are one person. In Christ, God provided Himself the Lamb for the offering. The PERSON born through Mary was Immanu-El. If God with us is not God that is new to me...now I am NOT saying Mary preceded and birthed her own Creator (so no false accusation please)...but Christ, the God-man, was a person (just one, not a Divine person plus but separate from a physical person). Think on this...

And brother David there is wisdom in what you just said...
The Bible NEVER calls Mary the mother of God......
Whenever we use man-made doctrines that are not in the Bible, they are un-Biblical, which means NOT Biblical.
Then we are forced use another and another man-made attempt of explaining it.
In the beginning of the Bible in Genesis it says: In the beginning God........Not in the beginning Mary !!
 
The Bible NEVER calls Mary the mother of God......
Whenever we use man-made doctrines that are not in the Bible, they are un-Biblical, which means NOT Biblical.
Then we are forced use another and another man-made attempt of explaining it.
In the beginning of the Bible in Genesis it says: In the beginning God........Not in the beginning Mary !!
Are you really so thick in the skull that you can say such absurdities without bursting out in uproarious laughter? Nobody is claiming that Mary was in the beginning with God. Show me one Orthodox Catholic resource which claims such an absurdity. I dare you! You are full of straw-men and lies.

Member was warned for this post. Personal attacks and insults will not be allowed.
 
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brother David...You are so right on that point (NOT "In the beginning Mary) and something I certainly took pains to explain that I was not saying (and asked not to be falsely accused of saying)! I believe the Bible supports that the Lord of Elizabeth and Zacharias was only YHVH, and yet Elizabeth, by the Spirit, calls Mary, "the mother of My Lord". So who was Elizabeth's Lord, when Mary was still pregnant? Please answer...
 
Are you really so thick in the skull that you can say such absurdities without bursting out in uproarious laughter? Nobody is claiming that Mary was in the beginning with God. Show me one Orthodox Catholic resource which claims such an absurdity. I dare you! You are full of straw-men and lies.
I am NOT uplifting or intentional degrading Orthodox Catholicism as you called it....I am speaking Bible here, In the the beginning was God, NOT Mary. So if she was God's mother she would be first and before just like our own earthly mother was first and before us.
 
brother David...You are so right on that point (NOT "In the beginning Mary) and something I certainly took pains to explain that I was not saying (and asked not to be falsely accused of saying)! I believe the Bible supports that the Lord of Elizabeth and Zacharias was only YHVH, and yet Elizabeth, by the Spirit, calls Mary, "the mother of My Lord". So who was Elizabeth's Lord, when Mary was still pregnant? Please answer...
A true "Biblical" understanding of the deity and duel natures of Jesus Christ is a must.....
 
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Anything perfect and divine coming from imperfect sinful flesh is ridiculous......

you deny Jesus cannot make us perfect by imputing His righteousness upon us ???

Mat 5:48 “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Phl 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that fnfor which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

Hbr 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
 
So David, just talking Bible...who was Elizabeth's Lord before Christ (God incarnate) was birthed?

And since you are speaking of the dual natures let me ask you another question? Was the fulness of the Godhead dwelling bodily (Col. 2:9) birthed through Mary, or only the human nature later to be joined with the divine nature?

Do you see Christ as two persons as one or one person (albeit with two natures)?

Please answer...
 
brother David...You are so right on that point (NOT "In the beginning Mary) and something I certainly took pains to explain that I was not saying (and asked not to be falsely accused of saying)! I believe the Bible supports that the Lord of Elizabeth and Zacharias was only YHVH, and yet Elizabeth, by the Spirit, calls Mary, "the mother of My Lord". So who was Elizabeth's Lord, when Mary was still pregnant? Please answer...

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”

Mat 22:42 “What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?” They said to Him, “The son of David.”
Mat 22:43 He said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying,
Mat 22:44 ‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET”’?
Mat 22:45 “If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his son?”
Mat 22:46 No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question.
 
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