Mary, Mother Of The Lamb(flesh) Of God, Not Mother Of God

MichaelH

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Mary would agree that worshiping her would be idolatrous and terrible. Though this is not the practice of the Catholic Church. Christ loved and honored his mother. He didn't worship her of course. Catholics are imitating Christ with the same love and honor he had toward Mary. And it's all due to their even greater love and worship of Him.
If imitating Jesus were the case, then we pray to the Father in Heaven and not Mary in Heaven. You would also Call Mary, women.

Also, Worship would be those 200 Hail Mary's in the prayer, Asking anyone but God for help brings a snare and any asking for mediation but the Father is also Idolatry.

The whole concept of Idolatry is to make something else your help and mediator but God the Father.

Hail Mary 200 times is most definitely lifting up Mary in Worship unless you think she may be hard of hear or something.

LysanderShapiro How could you let go what you once knew to be true and end up in a contradictory mess. Your right it is idolatrous and it is terrible and it may just cost you more than what your willing to pay.

I suggest sticking to the Word, and pray to who you were instructed to pray to. It's Idolatry otherwise.

Slick talk and beating around bushes and not calling it what it is, is of the devil who authors confusion and long explination of things to hide truth.

I ask that you don't be confused as you will be brought back to all the conversations and be without excuse when it's time to be judged.

Think about that, you let go your first love and now are confused. It's not the way to Go Brother.

If you left because you lacked power or that feeling of God or whatever, I can promise you seek the Holy Spirit and the fellowship of the Lord. The power is there and far more power then you will see at any Catholic mass. It's there for you.
 
Jul 25, 2013
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If imitating Jesus were the case, then we pray to the Father in Heaven and not Mary in Heaven. You would also Call Mary, women.
We DO pray to the Father in Heaven -- everyday. The Lord's prayer is the most important prayer as it is the one given to us directly by our Lord.

We speak to Mary, just as Christ spoke to her, and love her just as He did. Christ referred to her as 'woman' in the scriptures, but this wouldn't suggest he exclusively referred to her as that. But we DO refer to her as woman in the sense that we refer to Jesus as man -- not in the simple, biological sense, but in the sense that He is the new Adam -- Catholics regard her as the new Eve.

Also, Worship would be those 200 Hail Mary's in the prayer, Asking anyone but God for help brings a snare and any asking for mediation but the Father is also Idolatry.
MichaelH, I think we're caught in a circle. If you say asking anyone but God for help brings a snare, then why do we ask one another to pray for each other? That wouldn't be idolatrous -- in fact, we've been instructed in the scriptures to do this. We do this with Mary -- we ask her to pray for us. With all due respect, you can't seem to find the disconnect in what you are saying. I must have asked my family to pray for me a MILLION times, but that doesn't mean I am worshiping them, does it?

If someone prays to Mary and decides he doesn't want to include God, then I agree that he is now being idolatrous. No prayer should EVER exclude God. It must always lead up to God.

The whole concept of Idolatry is to make something else your help and mediator but God the Father.
I absolutely agree. It is taking someone that ought to be in God's place and replacing Him. It is the first commandment and ought not be done AT ALL. No question.

Hail Mary 200 times is most definitely lifting up Mary in Worship unless you think she may be hard of hear or something.
What about 199 times? :p OK, I'm joking there. No, I absolutely disagree. Worship is the highest form of veneration -- it is the level that strictly belongs to God. It is submitting yourself entirely to Him, adoring Him, being in complete awe of Him, and all because there is no one greater by a long shot. However, we aren't commanded to give reserve ONLY our love for God, meaning we must literally hate everyone. We are told to love everyone, honor our spouses, honor our parents, and love even our enemies.

It seems you are also concerned about the repetition of prayer used by Catholics. If someone were to pray even just 5 Hail Marys in vain repetition, then that wouldn't be good (Matthew 6:7). However, if he were praying 200 Hail Marys in persistence, the way Jesus was praying in persistence, the same words, in Mark 14:38-39. There is certainly a difference between praying in vain repetition and praying in persistence.

LysanderShapiro How could you let go what you once knew to be true and end up in a contradictory mess. Your right it is idolatrous and it is terrible and it may just cost you more than what your willing to pay.
MichaelH, I'm thankful for my upbringing as a Protestant. I'm thankful for my parents who taught me, and continue to teach me, about the love of God through their love form me. I will never be as good as they are, and God blessed me with them, as well as my mentors and Bible Study leaders when I was younger.

I did not, nor will I ever walk away from what I know to be true and what you know to be true...and that is the gift of grace from God and the love that we can't even begin to imagine. Never will I walk away from that. In fact, I have grown into it even more, and my love for it continues to grow every day.

I disagree that there is a contradictory mess. With all of the evidence in the scriptures and history, all of what the Church happens to teach (and not what anti-Catholics THINK it teaches), all of the logic, and all of the blessings, after spending the time I did (originally with the intention to show Catholics were wrong), and finding out the truth about it, why would I walk away from it?

Especially in regards to the Eucharist -- not Consubstantiate, but Transubstantiate -- there is a choice needing to be made. I was concerned with this because if all my years I had been wrong about the Eucharist in thinking it is just a piece of bread, then I had been ridiculing and rejecting Christ every day. It was necessary to get to the bottom of it. If I had been simply indifferrent, then I was still rejecting Him. Luke 22:19-20, Christ was sincere. If He wasn't sincere, then why would verses like 1 Corinthians 11:27-29 or John 6:53-54 exist?

If you knew which church was the one founded by our Lord Himself, would you want to know?

I suggest sticking to the Word, and pray to who you were instructed to pray to. It's Idolatry otherwise.
I agree :) The Word of God is necessary in following, and we must pray to God, as instructed by Christ.

Slick talk and beating around bushes and not calling it what it is, is of the devil who authors confusion and long explination of things to hide truth.
I don't recall beating around the bush. In fact, I think I've been pretty blatant and outward about my faith and the defenses I brought forward. Nothing slick about my talk either. I'm merely saying what is true. No more, no less.

If my explanations are long, it's only because a lot need to be explained. Much of the attacks are such loaded comments and questions, if I leave it at 4 word answers, then I haven't done a very good job.

With all of the resources, scriptures, and explanations provided, I'm wondering why still hold the exact same position as even before. I would have given you credit had you said "Well, I still don't believe the Catholic Church is the right church, but at least I get the rationale for such-and-such." or "at least I understand Catholics mean THIS rather than THAT." Despite every explanation, using credible sources (namely the Bible), you haven't even budged. I'm not trying to convert you, but if you want to hate the Catholic Church, you owe it to yourself to at least know what it really is and what it teaches.

I ask that you don't be confused as you will be brought back to all the conversations and be without excuse when it's time to be judged.
I'm not confused. In fact, I'm far less confused than ever. I don't think I've come off confused here. Granted, I'm not the best with words, but the explanations given have been pretty sound.

Think about that, you let go your first love and now are confused. It's not the way to Go Brother.[/quote]

I'm not confused. In fact, I'm far less confused. I don't think I've come off confused here. Granted, I'm not the best with words, but the explanations given have been pretty sound.

If you left because you lacked power or that feeling of God or whatever, I can promise you seek the Holy Spirit and the fellowship of the Lord. The power is there and far more power then you will see at any Catholic mass. It's there for you.
If I left what? I didn't leave anything except for the Protestant position of Christianity. I closer with my Christian faith than ever. I have a stronger foundation for my belief and love for God.

I am not seeking power. I have no power. What power could I even begin to have? If I told you the Holy Spirit lead me to the Church, I'm positive you wouldn't believe me, just as I wouldn't believe you if you said the Holy Spirit keeps you away from the Church...and this is the disorder our spiritual world is confronted with. Two opposing sides claim the Holy Spirit is talking to them about to very different things.

My fellowship with God has never been stronger. I find myself seeking Him more and more each day, and thank God for that, because I'm such a sinner, I've never needed Him so much.

I appreciate you sharing what you did -- and I'm sure you did it our of concern and love...but I'm sharing what I am sharing because of my concern and love for you.
 
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It is interesting how man has put so many "labels" on God's Church- Such as "catholic" or"protestant"
The New Testament Church was neither, these came later. Religion is man made- Jesus is where it's at !
Any group that blatantly spews out such blaphemous terms as "Mary mother of God" could NOT possibly be God's true Church.
The prophets of old did NOT use this terminology, nor did Jesus' holy Apostles, or Jesus Christ Himself.
What we have shown here is religion that is Un-Biblical or Non-Biblical, either way it is NOT solely Bible based. Because if the term: "Mary mother of God" was NOT used or said in the Bible where did it come from ?? You guessed it - MAN.
Ephesians 4:4-6
King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
One Church.....Jesus' Church as recorded in the book of Acts.
 
Jul 25, 2013
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What we have shown here is religion that is Un-Biblical or Non-Biblical, either way it is NOT solely Bible based. Because if the term: "Mary mother of God" was NOT used or said in the Bible where did it come from ?? You guessed it - MAN.
Quite a difference. There are things practiced that are not Biblical, like church on Sundays, the term "The Holy Trinity" but these aren't traditions of man, they are supported by traditions of God. As is "Mary, the mother of God." Most ironically, Sola Scriptura is a tradition of man.

You must recognize the disconnect and the difference between the un-Biblical and the thing that aren't seen Biblicaly, but don't negate the Word of God.
 

MichaelH

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It seems you are also concerned about the repetition of prayer used by Catholics. If someone were to pray even just 5 Hail Marys in vain repetition, then that wouldn't be good (Matthew 6:7). However, if he were praying 200 Hail Marys in persistence, the way Jesus was praying in persistence, the same words, in Mark 14:38-39. There is certainly a difference between praying in vain repetition and praying in persistence
I did read through everything. I am not saying this is your case but a lot of converted to Catholic Same reason my wife had been frustrated for years about God. Lots of people in lots of churches feel there is just more to God than what their dry dead pastor is teaching. A few women I knew got involved in a group that took up practices of the Law. The never saw any of Gods power in their life, prayers never got answered and they felt by doing the extra stuff that somehow God would make himself more real.

I never mentioned repetitions though. I have confessions of the Word I do at times but I quote scripture for my benefit and to build faith in what God said, not prayer though. God never changes, I have to change my ability to receive

I just wish you knew about speaking something and knowing it will come to pass with confidence because you took a stance on just one scripture and believed.

To only have to pray once about something knowing God always hears and is moving on your behalf.

Took just quoting one scripture after drinking that bleach, thanking God that He "ALREADY" said if you drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt you.

Telling the devil one time to leave my son alone in the name of Jesus not asking God to heal, because he already told me by my stripes you are healed and I'll perfect those things that concern you.

I want believers to know God like that, where people come to you for prayer because when you pray the results are always evident and pray in confidence that God hears and is moving.

Though the devil tries to kill us, and mess things up, and the weapons do get formed. Victory is always on our side, and no devil or force on earth can kill me until I am done with the plan of God and I am good and ready to go on home to be with the Lord.

You know, Mary was in the upper room. If you really have to have all this admiration for Mary, she did get filled with the Holy Spirit and prayed in tongues. I am thinking you could at least follow that example and seek that. If Mary did it, then no reason you should not. It's something as I know my Father will met you where your at.

Blessings.
 
Jul 25, 2013
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I did read through everything. I am not saying this is your case but a lot of converted to Catholic Same reason my wife had been frustrated for years about God. Lots of people in lots of churches feel there is just more to God than what their dry dead pastor is teaching. A few women I knew got involved in a group that took up practices of the Law. The never saw any of Gods power in their life, prayers never got answered and they felt by doing the extra stuff that somehow God would make himself more real.

I never mentioned repetitions though. I have confessions of the Word I do at times but I quote scripture for my benefit and to build faith in what God said, not prayer though. God never changes, I have to change my ability to receive

I just wish you knew about speaking something and knowing it will come to pass with confidence because you took a stance on just one scripture and believed.

To only have to pray once about something knowing God always hears and is moving on your behalf.

Took just quoting one scripture after drinking that bleach, thanking God that He "ALREADY" said if you drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt you.

Telling the devil one time to leave my son alone in the name of Jesus not asking God to heal, because he already told me by my stripes you are healed and I'll perfect those things that concern you.

I want believers to know God like that, where people come to you for prayer because when you pray the results are always evident and pray in confidence that God hears and is moving.

Though the devil tries to kill us, and mess things up, and the weapons do get formed. Victory is always on our side, and no devil or force on earth can kill me until I am done with the plan of God and I am good and ready to go on home to be with the Lord.

You know, Mary was in the upper room. If you really have to have all this admiration for Mary, she did get filled with the Holy Spirit and prayed in tongues. I am thinking you could at least follow that example and seek that. If Mary did it, then no reason you should not. It's something as I know my Father will met you where your at.

Blessings.
I am grateful for your faith, MichaelH, dispite out differences of doctrine. I'm glad ultimately that what we share in common is so much greater than what divides us--and that's the salvation of grace through Jesus. :)
 
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The promise of the new country is mentioned in Heb 11 which they did not obtain. Abraham was in hell as Jesus described in Luke. The place was called Abraham's bosom or paradise (the non painful side of hell separated by a gulf)

We know paradise was in Hell as that is where Jesus went immediately after death Taking the thief with him. When Jesus came back many graves were opened and many dead seen brought out of Hell with Jesus. Paul also mentions paradise but going up after Jesus came out and finished the Work.

Nobody had a right to ascend into Heave before Jesus defeated hell and was resurrected out of Hell by His father. Once Death could no longer hold the people of God then Heaven was open.

Col 2:15
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

AMP
Col 2:15 [God] disarmed the principalities and powers that were ranged against us and made a bold display and public example of them, in triumphing over them in Him and in it [the cross].


Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
I'm still not understanding or seeing how what you described is what scripture says. May God give me ears to hear---
 
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This is one of those moments in Biblical history that is still perceived with mystery (as it involves something outside of this world).

When Christ died on the cross, he descended into Hell where the souls of those who died under the Old Covenant were waiting judgement -- and He went there to preach and deliver the disobedient into Heaven, like those who didn't listen to Noah before the flood (1 Peter 3:18-20).

The discussion still exists among Catholics regarding whether this was indeed Hell or Purgatory. The discussion among some Protestants is that this was indeed Hell, but that God wouldn't have abandoned even those souls (which I think all would agree with as God is a fair and loving God). The Bible refers to this place as "prison." In Hebrew and Greek, the word used was sheol and hades referring to the "place of the dead." Revelation 20:11-15 was especially one of those confusing verses to me since there seemed to be a distinction between Hell (a place of permanent punishment) and the place mentioned in this passage.

St. Thomas Aquinas held the position that Christ perhaps descended to both Hell and Purgatory for two different purposes. John Calvin held the position that Christ didn't go to Hell at all, but that the passage is symbolic for his suffer in the garden of Gethsemane and on the cross.

Many who do hold to the position that it was Purgatory believe this is what "Abraham's Bosom" (Luke 16:22) and "Paradise" (Luke 23:43) are.

I'm not really any authority to say I know for sure. But I hope this lends some idea to the meaning of Christ descending into Hell.
Lysander maybe I'm not hearing the truth on this but I just do not believe this from reading my bible (NLT)

Maybe I need to pray on this and ask God to reveal His truth to me. I do not believe it's clear enough in scripture for us to make this assumption.

I know you guys know way more than me!! I'll keep seeking-- thanks
 

MichaelH

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I am grateful for your faith, MichaelH, dispite out differences of doctrine. I'm glad ultimately that what we share in common is so much greater than what divides us--and that's the salvation of grace through Jesus. :)
I am not special Brother!!!! Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. What little victory I have had can be everyone elses.

True story, straight up, and I don't understand everything.

First, God moving on our behalf does not denote we are right with the father. Gifts and callings are without repentance. I have seen God move for someone that believed him though disobedient. God just seems to honor faith. Look at David, all his screw ups and David still boldly said 1,000 on my right 10,000 on my left it won't come near me............... That is Bold a heart for God that trust him.

Story:

I taught faith in a Homeless shelter, faith for Jobs, faith for healing and God did some real cool things. My friend who was a heroin addict never missed a bible study and I got to know him more and more.

He was wanting a meat cutting but said nobody would hire him, I got him to change that to God gives me grace and favor where I go, and nothing is to hard for me.

Took awhile but he got his believing turned around.

Well, He was doing well, got the Job but fell apart again.

Months later at a Party, Drunk and on heroin one of his best friends overdosed. Found him dead on the couch the next morning. Paramedics come check and He had been dead for several hours before they found him. They put him in a bag and was about to cart him off.

My friend remembering the things I said about faith in the name of Jesus bust through, opens the zipper of the bag and yells, "Devil you can't have him, Lord forgiven him and be alive in the name of Jesus."

They of course grab my friend and the police cuff him and take him to a patrol car. I imagine he was still high on Heroin, something you don't want to be when the police show up.

As soon as they zipped the bag back up with the body and put him in the ambulance the body started to move. Move so much that they unzipped the bag and saw the guy was trying to come back and got him hooked up to air and started to work on him.

Brother, this guy was cold dead, I knew a couple others that were there who don't even believe in Jesus and saw the whole thing.

how that is possible? God honors faith and if David can have that faith and my strung out friend had it then we can have it in complete obedience.

Blessings.


Lysander maybe I'm not hearing the truth on this but I just do not believe this from reading my bible (NLT)

Maybe I need to pray on this and ask God to reveal His truth to me. I do not believe it's clear enough in scripture for us to make this assumption.

I know you guys know way more than me!! I'll keep seeking-- thanks
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(Luk 16:22-26)

Where is Abraham?

Why is Abraham not in heaven?

Why did Jesus go into Hell?
Scripture says he was there.

Why is this hard to believe?

What did the promise land represent?

By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
(Heb 11:9-10)

What happened?

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
(Heb 11:13)

They died without reaching the city of God, they died in faith and were persuaded of the promise.

Jesus went down and got them out.

Blessings.
 
Jan 28, 2014
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I am not special Brother!!!! Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. What little victory I have had can be everyone elses.

True story, straight up, and I don't understand everything.

First, God moving on our behalf does not denote we are right with the father. Gifts and callings are without repentance. I have seen God move for someone that believed him though disobedient. God just seems to honor faith. Look at David, all his screw ups and David still boldly said 1,000 on my right 10,000 on my left it won't come near me............... That is Bold a heart for God that trust him.
Story:
I taught faith in a Homeless shelter, faith for Jobs, faith for healing and God did some real cool things. My friend who was a heroin addict never missed a bible study and I got to know him more and more.

He was wanting a meat cutting but said nobody would hire him, I got him to change that to God gives me grace and favor where I go, and nothing is to hard for me.

Took awhile but he got his believing turned around.

Well, He was doing well, got the Job but fell apart again.

Months later at a Party, Drunk and on heroin one of his best friends overdosed. Found him dead on the couch the next morning. Paramedics come check and He had been dead for several hours before they found him. They put him in a bag and was about to cart him off.

My friend remembering the things I said about faith in the name of Jesus bust through, opens the zipper of the bag and yells, "Devil you can't have him, Lord forgiven him and be alive in the name of Jesus."

They of course grab my friend and the police cuff him and take him to a patrol car. I imagine he was still high on Heroin, something you don't want to be when the police show up.

As soon as they zipped the bag back up with the body and put him in the ambulance the body started to move. Move so much that they unzipped the bag and saw the guy was trying to come back and got him hooked up to air and started to work on him.

Brother, this guy was cold dead, I knew a couple others that were there who don't even believe in Jesus and saw the whole thing.

how that is possible? God honors faith and if David can have that faith and my strung out friend had it then we can have it in complete obedience.

Blessings.

In The Old Testament certain individuals were saved by God for their belief in God alone.....Ahraham....Moses....Isaac...Etc, etc. When Jesus died on the cross this ushered in the New Testament Salvation plan started in the Book of Acts Chapter two. Even the thief on the cross was given a free pass to heaven because of his belief alone. He died in the Old Testament dispensation period. The NT Salvation plan came into effect after Jesus died on Calvary.


And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(Luk 16:22-26)

Where is Abraham?

Why is Abraham not in heaven?

Why did Jesus go into Hell?
Scripture says he was there.

Why is this hard to believe?

What did the promise land represent?

By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
(Heb 11:9-10)

What happened?

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
(Heb 11:13)

They died without reaching the city of God, they died in faith and were persuaded of the promise.

Jesus went down and got them out.

Blessings.
 
Jul 25, 2013
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1,313
113
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Washington, DC
I am not special Brother!!!! Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. What little victory I have had can be everyone elses.

True story, straight up, and I don't understand everything.

First, God moving on our behalf does not denote we are right with the father. Gifts and callings are without repentance. I have seen God move for someone that believed him though disobedient. God just seems to honor faith. Look at David, all his screw ups and David still boldly said 1,000 on my right 10,000 on my left it won't come near me............... That is Bold a heart for God that trust him.
Story:
I taught faith in a Homeless shelter, faith for Jobs, faith for healing and God did some real cool things. My friend who was a heroin addict never missed a bible study and I got to know him more and more.

He was wanting a meat cutting but said nobody would hire him, I got him to change that to God gives me grace and favor where I go, and nothing is to hard for me.

Took awhile but he got his believing turned around.

Well, He was doing well, got the Job but fell apart again.

Months later at a Party, Drunk and on heroin one of his best friends overdosed. Found him dead on the couch the next morning. Paramedics come check and He had been dead for several hours before they found him. They put him in a bag and was about to cart him off.

My friend remembering the things I said about faith in the name of Jesus bust through, opens the zipper of the bag and yells, "Devil you can't have him, Lord forgiven him and be alive in the name of Jesus."

They of course grab my friend and the police cuff him and take him to a patrol car. I imagine he was still high on Heroin, something you don't want to be when the police show up.

As soon as they zipped the bag back up with the body and put him in the ambulance the body started to move. Move so much that they unzipped the bag and saw the guy was trying to come back and got him hooked up to air and started to work on him.

Brother, this guy was cold dead, I knew a couple others that were there who don't even believe in Jesus and saw the whole thing.

how that is possible? God honors faith and if David can have that faith and my strung out friend had it then we can have it in complete obedience.

Blessings.
Quite a story. God bless you.