Mary, Mother Of The Lamb(flesh) Of God, Not Mother Of God
- Thread starter Brother David
- Start date
So he saved people from hell? What do you mean he brought his people out who were waiting in the promise?
This is one of those moments in Biblical history that is still perceived with mystery (as it involves something outside of this world).
When Christ died on the cross, he descended into Hell where the souls of those who died under the Old Covenant were waiting judgement -- and He went there to preach and deliver the disobedient into Heaven, like those who didn't listen to Noah before the flood (1 Peter 3:18-20).
The discussion still exists among Catholics regarding whether this was indeed Hell or Purgatory. The discussion among some Protestants is that this was indeed Hell, but that God wouldn't have abandoned even those souls (which I think all would agree with as God is a fair and loving God). The Bible refers to this place as "prison." In Hebrew and Greek, the word used was sheol and hades referring to the "place of the dead." Revelation 20:11-15 was especially one of those confusing verses to me since there seemed to be a distinction between Hell (a place of permanent punishment) and the place mentioned in this passage.
St. Thomas Aquinas held the position that Christ perhaps descended to both Hell and Purgatory for two different purposes. John Calvin held the position that Christ didn't go to Hell at all, but that the passage is symbolic for his suffer in the garden of Gethsemane and on the cross.
Many who do hold to the position that it was Purgatory believe this is what "Abraham's Bosom" (Luke 16:22) and "Paradise" (Luke 23:43) are.
I'm not really any authority to say I know for sure. But I hope this lends some idea to the meaning of Christ descending into Hell.
MichaelH
Inactive
The promise of the new country is mentioned in Heb 11 which they did not obtain. Abraham was in hell as Jesus described in Luke. The place was called Abraham's bosom or paradise (the non painful side of hell separated by a gulf)
We know paradise was in Hell as that is where Jesus went immediately after death Taking the thief with him. When Jesus came back many graves were opened and many dead seen brought out of Hell with Jesus. Paul also mentions paradise but going up after Jesus came out and finished the Work.
Nobody had a right to ascend into Heave before Jesus defeated hell and was resurrected out of Hell by His father. Once Death could no longer hold the people of God then Heaven was open.
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
AMP
Col 2:15 [God] disarmed the principalities and powers that were ranged against us and made a bold display and public example of them, in triumphing over them in Him and in it [the cross].
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
I have heard the catholic persuasion insist that since we can agree that "Jesus is God" and Mary gave birth to Him......that makes her the mother of God. (wow this must be a deep revelation, so deep that it isn't even in the Bible)
I don't read in my Bible about Mary being the First and the Last, I also see NOT even the most remote idea the she was everlasting.
For her to be the mother of God, that make her a greater God that was here first.
I don't read in my Bible about Mary being the First and the Last, I also see NOT even the most remote idea the she was everlasting.
For her to be the mother of God, that make her a greater God that was here first.
MichaelH
Inactive
If we were to use the actual Greek definition of "god" then every mother is a mother of a god. Jesus called us gods, and we are created like God. There would be no reason to Give Mary any special title the bible did not give. Blessed among women would be acceptable but that would not mean other women were not just as blessed.
If a person would open their Bible to Genesis it says: "In the beginning God"
Not Mary.....she wasn't there.
Not Mary.....she wasn't there.
She is a Daughter of God...or....A child of God....not God' s Mom . The Bible plainly tells us God had no Mother or Father nor beginning or ending of days.
Yea and Amen
She was a " Chosen Vessel" by God to bear his human manifestation in Flesh.
God is a Spirit ( John 4 v 24) a Spirit cannot be seen, nor can a Spirit suffer pain and sorrow, or shed blood. Only a perfect sacrifice could be our sin offering...Jesus was the only qualified blood sacrifice. Noone else could pay the price..( Hebrews Chapter 9).
MichaelH
Inactive
Since this is scriptural and be the case, then who in their right mind, who valued the Word of God come up with Queen of Heaven or Mother of God for Mary. Why even have a thread like this?
Some things don't make sense, no scripture would mean no discussion, at least I think that should be the case.
Blessings.
Just searching for truth, and attempting to bring deliverance to the captives in Jesus' Name
The rationale is that the Christian doctrine recognizes the divinity of Jesus -- that the moment He came into existence in the human form, He was one with God and was God. This isn't suggesting that Mary is God in that she gave birth to Him -- that would be ridiculous on so many accounts. However, If Jesus is God, and if Mary is the mother of Jesus, then she is the mother of God.
1) If you're looking for the verbatim term in the scriptures, then of course it won't be found. However, this might put you in an uncomfortable position as the verbatim term for the trinity is also not found -- however, it's necessary to recognize the trinity in Christianity. However, you'd be right in saying scripture must back up the notion -- and like it backs up the doctrine of the holy trinity, it does the same for Mary being the mother of God.
2) If people were to argue that in Luke 1:43, the original Greek word for Lord was "kurios," they'd be right. In your defense, it didn't explicitly mean it in the divine nature. However, in 1 Corinthians 8:5, the verse gives an example of kurios being used in regards to divinity: "Yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." Notice two key points; Jesus is called both the one Lord and He is called creator of all things. No question that it refers to the Lord's divinity.
When Mary gave birth, she didn't give birth to one human nature, nor did she give to two different natures -- she gave birth to one nature -- that being a divine Person.
3) If you were arguing against the notion that Mary is the mother of the trinity...I'd agree actually. Mary is NOT the mother of the trinity because she isn't the mother of the Father, nor of the Holy Spirit. She is, however, the mother of the Son, which happens to be the 2nd part of the three persons in one -- especially since the Father nor the Holy Spirit are incarnate.
When someone says "Mary is the mother of God," this shouldn't be confused with Mary being the source of the divine nature of three Persons, nor is she even the source of the divine nature of the second Person. But she doesn’t have to be in order to be the Mother of the second Person of the Blessed Trinity incarnate.
Here's an analogy: Heidi gave birth to her son, Charlie. But this does not mean she is the source of Charlie’s immortal soul. God directly and immediately created his soul as He does with every human being. However, we do not conclude then that Heidi is merely "the mother of Charlie’s body." She is Charlie’s mother, period. She did not give birth to a body; she gave birth to a human person who is a body/soul composite: Charlie.
Though Mary did not provide Jesus with either His divine nature or His immortal human soul, she is still His Mother because she did not give birth to a body, a soul, a nature, or even two natures -- she gave birth to a Person. And that one Person is God. Therefore, if Jesus Christ is one, eternal and unchangeable divine person -- God -- and Mary is His mother, then Mary is the Mother of that one, eternal and unchangeable person -- God.
Totally wrong. God used Mary To bear a child to become our sin sacrifice. She was a Virgin, A Jew, and about 15-16 when she gave birth to Jesus. She conceived Through the Holy Ghost not through natural conception. She was indeed " Blessed" to be chosen by God to bear for him a Human Body...but she was not born sinless, or did she " Ascend" to heaven as Catholics celebrate August 15 " Feast of The Assumption" or she now in heaven keeping her son " Calm" from all the sinners giving her prayer requests down here. Or is she " Co Redeemer" " Mediatrix" " Queen of Heaven" or sitting on a throne next to God up in heaven. Sorry I was a Catholic and know all of what they teach, I was brainwashed with it daily. All this is Brothers and Sisters is a slick form of Baal Worship. Pure Idolatry and Blasphemy to God' s Holy writ. The real Mary in Heaven, would never be a part of this..She knew better..And knew who Jesus is and was.
And for the record; How many know she had other Children with Joseph After Jesus was conceived?
Matthew 13 verses 55 & 56: "Is not this the carpenter' s son? Is not his Mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his SISTERS, are they not all with us?......."
and just in case someone tells you " Brethren" means Cousins, Nieces, Nephews and not Sons and Daughters of Mary and Joseph....read What Apostle Paul staTed when he came to visit Apostle Peter in Jerusalem....Galatians 1 v 18 & 19 " Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the Apostles saw I none, SAVE JAMES THE LORD' S BROTHER." Apostle James was the step brother of Jesus Joseph and Mary' s Son.
And for the record; How many know she had other Children with Joseph After Jesus was conceived?
Matthew 13 verses 55 & 56: "Is not this the carpenter' s son? Is not his Mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his SISTERS, are they not all with us?......."
and just in case someone tells you " Brethren" means Cousins, Nieces, Nephews and not Sons and Daughters of Mary and Joseph....read What Apostle Paul staTed when he came to visit Apostle Peter in Jerusalem....Galatians 1 v 18 & 19 " Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the Apostles saw I none, SAVE JAMES THE LORD' S BROTHER." Apostle James was the step brother of Jesus Joseph and Mary' s Son.
MichaelH
Inactive
Your right, the "REAL" Mary in heaven would never go for such nonsense and it is very disrespectful to a Women who served God and is mentioned in the Word.
MichaelH
Inactive
This is the issue with all bad denominations. You get in error when you included into your belief systems things God never mentioned And add to what has already been stated as true. This is just not a Catholic issue though they are bad when it comes to adding to what should be followed.
This is also why it's hard to talk to them because anything under the sun counts as true for them and not scripture only.
Nobody has failed who has stuck completely to the Word of God.
I don't use terms even outside God's Word, I stick to Word only.
"I was slain by the Spirit"
"God answers prayer yes, no, or maybe."
"God is sovereign."
"God lives outside of time."
The list goes on......... but not on my list.
Amen.
Mary would agree that worshiping her would be idolatrous and terrible. Though this is not the practice of the Catholic Church. Christ loved and honored his mother. He didn't worship her of course. Catholics are imitating Christ with the same love and honor he had toward Mary. And it's all due to their even greater love and worship of Him.
I enjoyed reading you response as you recognize the argument of Brethren meaning kin, and you provided scripture in support of your position.
However, I must respond in opposition (and respectfully of course). Galatians 1:18-19 doesn't provide evidence that James is Jesus' brother. It simply states that he is His brother. Mark 6:3 also mentions the brothers of Jesus -- though it doesn't remove the notion of them being His cousins. And there's scriptural reason to support why they weren't his brothers:
To begin, we have to acknowledge that the word "Brother" was used as kin (Genesis 14:12, then Genesis 14:14 [Lot and Abraham were called "brothers"]) -- not exclusively of course, but alongside the literal meaning. In Matthew 27:55-56, it suggests James was the son of Mary, the mother of the sons of Zebedee -- this is another Mary, not the Virgin Mary.
Another reason to believe she didn't have other children is to look at John 19:26-27, where Jesus offers His mother to John. Would Jesus' last action before He died be to grievously insult His siblings? At this point, Biblical scholars suspect Joseph had passed already, and the custom was for the family to take the mother in. This would have been against the customs and a slap in the face to His brothers.
In Acts 1:14-15, it says "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said,"
About 120 persons:
The brethren (being the disciples) -- at this time, it was 11 of them.
Mary -- that's 1
The women -- for argument's sake, we'll be generous and say a dozen or two.
Right there is 36 people. 120 - 36 = 84 brothers of Jesus...Mary would have been in perpetual labor if this is the case.
I enjoy reading your post, Ricko -- you're certainly welcomed here, even if we are at a disagreement
Lack of Bible evidence of the trinity does NOT put me in an uncomfortable position whatsoever.
You are talking in funny circles again.....God is divine.......Jesus was 100% man-NOT divine flesh/ He was also 100% God-divine.