Mary, Mother Of The Lamb(flesh) Of God, Not Mother Of God

LysanderShapiro said:
The early Church father, when speaking of the sufficiency of the Scriptures, always acknowledge the material sufficiency of Scripture with the need for Tradition. There is a difference between the formal sufficiency of Scripture and the material sufficiency of Scripture. Protestants believe in the formal sufficiency of Scripture -- the belief that all Christian truths are explicitly stated in the Bible, and Tradition and a Magisterium are not needed to interpret its plain meaning. Catholics believe in the material sufficiency of Scripture -- that all Christian truths are found in Scripture, either explicitly or implicitly, but require the aid of Tradition and the Magisterium to be understood properly.

I wish I remembered the name of the Protestant author, but he wrote on the early Church fathers and how they supposedly supported Sola Scriptura. However, about 4 Catholic authors wrote in response -- those authors are Scott Hahn, Jimmy Akin, Peter Kreeft, and Fr. Mitchell Pacwa.

Ryan is right -- one could indeed take what they've written to support an agenda. However, they've said much more than these lines:

Irenaeus wrote "But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, and which is preserved by means of the successions of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying they themselves are wiser...When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and assert that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition...It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture or tradition"

This was written in his same book, 'Against Heresies,' that Brother Paul very eloquently mentioned.

The Church fathers absolutely LOVED the scriptures -- they read the scriptures, quoted the scriptures, and demanded the scriptures are given their due respects. But they never justified the scriptures alone as sole authority.

St. Augustine was pretty hard on those slipping from Church authority because of his concerns with heresies. He wrote "Nevertheless, sacred doctrine makes use of these authorities [the pagan greek philosophers] as extrinsic and probable arguments; but properly uses the authority of the canonical Scriptures as an incontrovertible proof, and the authority of the doctors of the Church as one that may properly be used, yet merely as probable."
Their positions, most of them, were as bishops and priests, and wrote about the Church as Apostolic. Some of these Church fathers were even existing at the same times as Paul, like Polycarp and Ignatius.

One should be careful in reading Church history as well, because if history can be changed, so can scriptures -- and that's what has lead to more than 30,000 different denominations.
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Very well and properly put LS and what I quoted was not derived to support "A POSITION" as opposed to any other, ignoring all that they passed on, but rather to clarify that SUPPORT from and CONFIRMATION by the scripture was the accepted tradition. Thats all...it speaks nothing of being against the traditions (like gathering on the 1st day, or the necessity of Baptism, Mary as "the mother of God" or the meaning of the Eucharist, etc.) as these are obviously also present in all their writings.

Therefore, I am not incorrect or in error to say Traditions like a teaching magesterium, a college of Cardinals, and so on, which are neither Apostolic tradition passed on by the Apostles and not found in neither scripture or in what was passed on by the fathers, are man made and developed later by men and therefore not binding on the church (the universal body of those actually born from above). You can adhere to these, that is fine as it is all about Christ but these things are not Christianity but rather added to it later by consensus within some circles and not within others and those who do not agree with or follow these Traditions (who follow and adhere to the traditions) are not heretical for not doing so.

In His love

brother Paul
 
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Kurt75 said:
I fail to see that Mary was even important, other than the obvious. What's more important was that she was a sinner who knew that she needed to believe in Christ just like us.
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I don't know, correct me if I am wrong, anywhere in the bible that says she was or was not a sinner. So, saying she was, is not appropriate. You can say I BELIEVE Mary was a sinner but not that she was. And of course the opposite is true.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
The best thing we can do is move forward in the most charitable way possible -- and I'm having to remind myself this too.
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Well there always is the OP which we should either return to or accept as exhausted and close the thread but I am up for further discussion about these side issues only they should be new threads...agreed?
 
Brother Paul said:
Well there always is the OP which we should either return to or accept as exhausted and close the thread but I am up for further discussion about these side issues only they should be new threads...agreed?
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Why stop here? :) I rather like these discussions. Though they can get a bit dirty -- and I'm guilty of dirtying it up sometimes. The discussion should be continued, but in charity of course. And when I do begin to get snappy, give me a kick in the pants and remind me what my responsibilities are as a Christian. ;)
 
I feel like if I was supposed to be praying to Mary that I would be convicted about it. God does convict me about things--- my life is all about Jesus! He's everything-- I'm always thinking about him and taking about him and his word with my friends. I don't see why I wouldn't have felt conviction or a sense of something missing. I am not negative or closed off about it; I just feel fulfilled by father son Holy Spirit!

I know this is just my opinion but it seems that quoting scripture on this has been done already (with both sides refuting) idk--

I see prayers to Mary and saints as time better spent in communion with God but I understand how Catholics consider it IS part of that communion. There really are different stories about how the Catholic And Protestant churches started and I'm not sure we could ever know the 100% truth about it.

It's all confusing in the details and we know who is the author of confusion !
 
AllieWi said:
I feel like if I was supposed to be praying to Mary that I would be convicted about it. God does convict me about things--- my life is all about Jesus! He's everything-- I'm always thinking about him and taking about him and his word with my friends. I don't see why I wouldn't have felt conviction or a sense of something missing. I am not negative or closed off about it; I just feel fulfilled by father son Holy Spirit!

I know this is just my opinion but it seems that quoting scripture on this has been done already (with both sides refuting) idk--

I see prayers to Mary and saints as time better spent in communion with God but I understand how Catholics consider it IS part of that communion. There really are different stories about how the Catholic And Protestant churches started and I'm not sure we could ever know the 100% truth about it.

It's all confusing in the details and we know who is the author of confusion !
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A very honest and excellent statement coming from you :)

Catholics should never discredit anyone for wanting complete communication with Christ, as that should be what it should lead up to in the most important form -- our personal relationship with Him.

A good way to understand the mindset of the Catholic who had Marian devotion is this:

One of God's commandments to us is to obey our parents and love them unconditionally. Jesus was very obedient to His Father and, because of that, loved His mother with all His heart and listened to her (consider John 2:3 at the wedding of Cana). When Catholics (and even some non-Catholics), in the purest form, have a love and devotion to Mary, it is because of their even greater love and worship of Jesus and are imitating Him. In that same passage at the wedding of Cana, in John 2:5, Mary directs the servants to Jesus. This is a significant passage to Catholics because of its imagery and symbolism of Mary being such an important woman in Christianity, and her obedience and devotion to God is to direct us to her Son, Jesus.

Protestants have concerns as they believe it gives Mary too much credit, but Catholics are concerned about putting Mary aside as Christ never would have done that -- and His calling her "Woman" throughout the Gospel is speaking volumes of his recognition of her role.

This is the rationale of Mary's importance amongst Catholics.
 
ixoye_8 said:
“You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition

there is nothing wrong with traditions as long as you have love ..
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The Spirit of Love has ruined me in this....."Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him." John 14:23. And I have never been better!

My God is sufficient for me. The Word and His Spirit are enough for me - I will not and do not need to seek support - like tradition - outside of this. :)
 
This is a common catholic practice......
nec·ro·man·cy
: the practice of talking to the spirits of dead people
Deuteronomy 18:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
 
Brother David said:
This is a common catholic practice......
nec·ro·man·cy
: the practice of talking to the spirits of dead people
Deuteronomy 18:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
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This shouldn't be confused with necromancy. Necromancy is in regards to conjuring the dead and speaking with them. The difference is Catholics speak with the living in Heaven (God is not a God of the dead -- Luke 20:38), and we recognize the saints and Mary in heaven to be in communion with the Body of Christ, just as His followers on earth are.

If one were to believe Catholics were practicing necromancy, namely involving Mary, then they that person would have to either believe that Heaven is not a place of eternal life OR that Mary is not in Heaven. Most would agree that Mary IS in Heaven and that Heaven IS a place of eternal life (John 3:16).
 
This is a common catholic practice......
nec·ro·man·cy
: the practice of talking to the spirits of dead people
Deuteronomy 18:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
LysanderShapiro said:
This shouldn't be confused with necromancy. Necromancy is in regards to conjuring the dead and speaking with them. The difference is Catholics speak with the living in Heaven (God is not a God of the dead -- Luke 20:38), and we recognize the saints and Mary in heaven to be in communion with the Body of Christ, just as His followers on earth are.

If one were to believe Catholics were practicing necromancy, namely involving Mary, then they that person would have to either believe that Heaven is not a place of eternal life OR that Mary is not in Heaven. Most would agree that Mary IS in Heaven and that Heaven IS a place of eternal life (John 3:16).
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So you believe the righteous go straight to heaven after death ? Do you believe the unrighteous go straight to hell ?
 
LysanderShapiro said:
This shouldn't be confused with necromancy. Necromancy is in regards to conjuring the dead and speaking with them. The difference is Catholics speak with the living in Heaven (God is not a God of the dead -- Luke 20:38), and we recognize the saints and Mary in heaven to be in communion with the Body of Christ, just as His followers on earth are.

If one were to believe Catholics were practicing necromancy, namely involving Mary, then they that person would have to either believe that Heaven is not a place of eternal life OR that Mary is not in Heaven. Most would agree that Mary IS in Heaven and that Heaven IS a place of eternal life (John 3:16).
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Read the definition friend, I did not invent the word, It says:Talking to the spirits of dead peple
 
Just want to add my thoughts and not here to argue or debate anyone' s personal beleifs. God wants us to share his word with one another, and use his word and his word alone over and above any other teaching, doctrines, Personal convictions, Family beliefs etc.

We are saved by his word, His Holy writ, and the teachings of his appointed Apostles recorded in The New Testament. This is the First Century Church...The Only Church ever started by Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Apostle John was the last Apostle to record the Word before the teaching and instruction ended around 100 AD. John wrote John, I John, I I and I I I John, and The Book of Revelation.

During the past 2,000 years many " Christian" Churches have formed, started by men. Some with good intentions, Some with perverse, or for financial gain using false teachings, etc. How can one decide if what they believe is correct teaching and correct doctrine? Simply read the Bible over and over because no person is ever going to have a chance to understand what it says unless you study it everyday.

The Bible teaches all of the following: Literal, Dual, Types and Shadows, Metaphors, Hidden meanings. I truly believe God did this so the Devil could never destroy his word totally. Unless someone is filled with God' s Spirit indwelled presence they will never get the full understanding.

That said; The Bible is chock full of mysteries and items many people never catch the full meaning of, even with the best
intentions. I am included, because I choose for example not to go deep into certain issues, others Love to study about.

Example: When we read in the OT about the " Tabernacle in the wilderness" where Moses is told by The Lord how to build this Tabernacle, The Priesthood, The precise measurements which at first seems boring to read. Then You find out this " Tabernacle" actually is a Metaphor pointing to God' ' New Testament Church.

Every single thing it talks about relates to The Church of Jesus Christ thousands of years later. I have a dear brother in Christ never married, rather a " Eunich" for The Lord who studied about this for
over 20 years who can teach this like a world class violinist can bring people to their feet. This is not to exalt this Man, but it gives us an understanding how God opens the understanding of his precious word. ( Read Luke 24 v 24). Love everyone...Want us all to make heaven one day...That is the most important thing we should all be concerned with above anything else...
 
Ricko1 said:
Just want to add my thoughts and not here to argue or debate anyone' s personal beleifs. God wants us to share his word with one another, and use his word and his word alone over and above any other teaching, doctrines, Personal convictions, Family beliefs etc.

We are saved by his word, His Holy writ, and the teachings of his appointed Apostles recorded in The New Testament. This is the First Century Church...The Only Church ever started by Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Apostle John was the last Apostle to record the Word before the teaching and instruction ended around 100 AD. John wrote John, I John, I I and I I I John, and The Book of Revelation.

During the past 2,000 years many " Christian" Churches have formed, started by men. Some with good intentions, Some with perverse, or for financial gain using false teachings, etc. How can one decide if what they believe is correct teaching and correct doctrine? Simply read the Bible over and over because no person is ever going to have a chance to understand what it says unless you study it everyday.

The Bible teaches all of the following: Literal, Dual, Types and Shadows, Metaphors, Hidden meanings. I truly believe God did this so the Devil could never destroy his word totally. Unless someone is filled with God' s Spirit indwelled presence they will never get the full understanding.

That said; The Bible is chock full of mysteries and items many people never catch the full meaning of, even with the best
intentions. I am included, because I choose for example not to go deep into certain issues, others Love to study about.

Example: When we read in the OT about the " Tabernacle in the wilderness" where Moses is told by The Lord how to build this Tabernacle, The Priesthood, The precise measurements which at first seems boring to read. Then You find out this " Tabernacle" actually is a Metaphor pointing to God' ' New Testament Church.

Every single thing it talks about relates to The Church of Jesus Christ thousands of years later. I have a dear brother in Christ never married, rather a " Eunich" for The Lord who studied about this for
over 20 years who can teach this like a world class violinist can bring people to their feet. This is not to exalt this Man, but it gives us an understanding how God opens the understanding of his precious word. ( Read Luke 24 v 24). Love everyone...Want us all to make heaven one day...That is the most important thing we should all be concerned with above anything else...
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We are "saved" through faith and obedience to God's word. We are dealing with some that do not esteem the Bible as the sole source of authority here anyway. Dead ordinances, rituals idol and statue worship......Calling men "father" / Praying to Mary and the dead saints. This is NOT hair splitting, these are very serious abominations that violate God's word, patty- cake if you must but I am a voice crying in the wilderness.......Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand !
Amos 3:3
King James Version (KJV)
3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
 
Brother David said:
This is a common catholic practice......
nec·ro·man·cy
: the practice of talking to the spirits of dead people
Deuteronomy 18:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.


So you believe the righteous go straight to heaven after death ? Do you believe the unrighteous go straight to hell ?
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Define righteous.
 
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