Mary, Mother Of The Lamb(flesh) Of God, Not Mother Of God

[MichaelH]

my point is it is impossible to discuss doctrine or theology when your not working with God's true word .. and if you are using a source that has been through the wash many times .. then you must conceded to the alterations in those verses that are pointed out as not viable data to work from ..

so it's the bible's fault.................... The KJV supports Trinity everywhere it can, not consistent but they changed some key words to mean a bit different. There is no perfect translation that does not have some doctrinal spin on it.

If God intended Mary to play such an important role in our walk with Christ (praying to her, meditating on her greatness)then why is it not instructed to do this in the Bible like so many other things are?

The Mary thing was added later by religion. If we were ever suppose to pray to anyone else but the Father God, it would have been mentioned. It's not found in scripture and praying to other things come from the imagination of man.

 

[AllieWi]

so it's the bible's fault.................... The KJV supports Trinity everywhere it can, not consistent but they changed some key words to mean a bit different. There is no perfect translation that does not have some doctrinal spin on it.



The Mary thing was added later by religion. If we were ever suppose to pray to anyone else but the Father God, it would have been mentioned. It's not found in scripture and praying to other things come from the imagination of man.

And Michael this is concerning to me as some Catholics I know are not too concerned about the Bible and what it says--- that's why we are supposed to stand on Gods word!! If we think it's only relevant sometimes it in certain situations-- we are subject to deception.

SOME. Some Catholics. I am referring to ones I know in real life--

 

[John Ryan]

And Michael this is concerning to me as some Catholics I know are not too concerned about the Bible and what it says--- that's why we are supposed to stand on Gods word!! If we think it's only relevant sometimes it in certain situations-- we are subject to deception.

SOME. Some Catholics. I am referring to ones I know in real life--

Roman Catholics believe that Sacred Scripture needs to be interpreted in light of the Apostolic tradition that was handed down from the apostles. St. Peter and St. Paul never wrote a compendium of theology. The only thing we have left of their writings are a few of their letters, which they never intended to be exhaustive. The Epistles were not written as manuals of theology. Much of what St. Peter and St. Paul taught was not written down, but rather passed down to their disciples, who subsequently passed it on to their disciples, etcetera.

 

[MichaelH]

And Michael this is concerning to me as some Catholics I know are not too concerned about the Bible and what it says--- that's why we are supposed to stand on Gods word!! If we think it's only relevant sometimes it in certain situations-- we are subject to deception.

SOME. Some Catholics. I am referring to ones I know in real life--

Catholics do take their religion from scriptures. Unless................ it's something they added in. In that case the Scripture (Word of God) takes a back seat.

Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jesus commissioned the last 12 Apostles of the Lamb to give the Word. Mary and the bead thing can be traced back as early as over 1,000 years after the Apostles had given the final Word.

prayer is talked about a lot in scriptures and is very important to all believers. If we were to pray to any other god or kneel before a corpse and pray then it would have been mentioned in the Word of God.

Catholics don't just pray to Mary with a bunch of beads in their hand (50 more beads added in 2003 by the Pope) You find them kneeling down before a cut out human heart, a body, a picture of some saint and anything that is not tacked down and moving.

We had a thread and I had pics of different Catholics churches practicing these things and the thread was closed.

it is just the way it is....... We believe scripture only for the Word is truth, and Life.

Blessings.

 

[Ricko1]

Catholics do take their religion from scriptures. Unless................ it's something they added in. In that case the Scripture (Word of God) takes a back seat.

Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jesus commissioned the last 12 Apostles of the Lamb to give the Word. Mary and the bead thing can be traced back as early as over 1,000 years after the Apostles had given the final Word.

prayer is talked about a lot in scriptures and is very important to all believers. If we were to pray to any other god or kneel before a corpse and pray then it would have been mentioned in the Word of God.

Catholics don't just pray to Mary with a bunch of beads in their hand (50 more beads added in 2003 by the Pope) You find them kneeling down before a cut out human heart, a body, a picture of some saint and anything that is not tacked down and moving.

We had a thread and I had pics of different Catholics churches practicing these things and the thread was closed.

it is just the way it is....... We believe scripture only for the Word is truth, and Life.

Blessings.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

And Michael this is concerning to me as some Catholics I know are not too concerned about the Bible and what it says--- that's why we are supposed to stand on Gods word!! If we think it's only relevant sometimes it in certain situations-- we are subject to deception.

SOME. Some Catholics. I am referring to ones I know in real life--

I have to second the motion, and I do it with a heavy heart, of course.

A lot of Catholics these days have taken a back seat in evangelizing, in memorizing scripture, and most importantly, in their relationship with God.

Thankfully, there has been a bit more of a surge of Catholics returning to these things, but there is a lot of work that needs to be done.

A lot of Catholics have become what is known as "Cafeteria Catholics." They take some things they like and then leave other parts out of their lives, even though they should be including all if they want to call themselves Catholic Christians.

 

[Ricko1]

Hi...Newbie here, Former Catholic, etc. All Christians...are to put God' s Holy Word first. If that Word does not support any tradition or belief taught by any Religion, Denomination, or faith. Then God' s Word is to be honored above any and all Church teachings. The World is chock full of false doctrines, False teachers, as the first century original church was warned:
Please take a moment to read what Apostle Paul said to the Original Church..Acts 20 v
20=31.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Welcome, Ricko1.

Glad to have a newbie around.

 

[Ricko1]

Welcome, Ricko1.

Glad to have a newbie around.

Thank You! Glad to be here..God Bless

 

[MichaelH]

I have to second the motion, and I do it with a heavy heart, of course.

A lot of Catholics these days have taken a back seat in evangelizing, in memorizing scripture, and most importantly, in their relationship with God.

Thankfully, there has been a bit more of a surge of Catholics returning to these things, but there is a lot of work that needs to be done.

A lot of Catholics have become what is known as "Cafeteria Catholics." They take some things they like and then leave other parts out of their lives, even though they should be including all if they want to call themselves Catholic Christians.

Ummmm............ Would this just be a Catholic issue? I know Catholics who speak in tongues and teach it as scriptural because Mary also was there and filled with the Holy Spirit. They also see it in the Word and do their best to seek God to see that any promise to them is not left out. Now that don't mean they have not added stuff not in scripture, but God is good and will meet anyone who believes His word.

Then there are lots of others who have been around the things of God all their life and are in worse shape than a bunch of Cathloics as they have done as Jesus said..... "Let go your first love"

So, I would not look at any Denomination Brother as a sign you will find "Cafeteria Believers" This problem pretty much effects the Whole body of Christ, not just Catholics.

I don't dislike the person and any person seeking God wanting truth despite being confused is fine in my book.
It's the core belief systems that reek of Corruption. I like lots of baptist, have read lots of their books along with many, many Catholic printed material. Lots have been helpful. The line gets drawn though when things go outside of the Word.

In other words I am not a Fan of Calvinism but a fan of living right and being Baptized.

I give to CAMS run by our Catholic Church. They do an awesome Job and work with other Churches. I agree with helping feed people.

I don't agree with Catholic Children kneeling down to a cut out heart of some past saint though encased in glass. I am against that.

Blessings.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Ummmm............ Would this just be a Catholic issue? I know Catholics who speak in tongues and teach it as scriptural because Mary also was there and filled with the Holy Spirit. They also see it in the Word and do their best to seek God to see that any promise to them is not left out. Now that don't mean they have not added stuff not in scripture, but God is good and will meet anyone who believes His word.

Then there are lots of others who have been around the things of God all their life and are in worse shape than a bunch of Cathloics as they have done as Jesus said..... "Let go your first love"

So, I would not look at any Denomination Brother as a sign you will find "Cafeteria Believers" This problem pretty much effects the Whole body of Christ, not just Catholics.

I don't dislike the person and any person seeking God wanting truth despite being confused is fine in my book.
It's the core belief systems that reek of Corruption. I like lots of baptist, have read lots of their books along with many, many Catholic printed material. Lots have been helpful. The line gets drawn though when things go outside of the Word.

In other words I am not a Fan of Calvinism but a fan of living right and being Baptized.

I give to CAMS run by our Catholic Church. They do an awesome Job and work with other Churches. I agree with helping feed people.

I don't agree with Catholic Children kneeling down to a cut out heart of some past saint though encased in glass. I am against that.

Blessings.

MichaelH, you're not going to make it easy on me, are you.

I said what I said in response to what someone else said about Catholics.

Obviously the problem of people not submitting themselves entirely to God, whether Catholic or not, is a problem. I'd rather someone become a non-Catholic Christian than not become a Christian at all because one's relationship with God trumps everything.

The blatant anti-Catholic bigotry is getting very old. This is a Christian forum, and while there will be disagreements and discussions and arguments, there should always remain a mutual respect for one another. I'm not getting that from you one bit.

 

[Brother David]

can we verify this witness ???

אֱלֹהִים(e-lo-hiym)
The base word אלוה (e-lo-ah) is commonly translated as "God" or "god," but more literally means "one of power and authority." The suffix ים (iym) is the masculine plural.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/emagazine/025.html

Mothers do not birth only the flesh, they birth a person, and in Mary's case the person was God (okay we get the IN the flesh idea...thats not the issue...the person was the I AM of eternity...

Yes that can be agreed to but God supplied the Spirit.......Not Mary.

 

[AllieWi]

Roman Catholics believe that Sacred Scripture needs to be interpreted in light of the Apostolic tradition that was handed down from the apostles. St. Peter and St. Paul never wrote a compendium of theology. The only thing we have left of their writings are a few of their letters, which they never intended to be exhaustive. The Epistles were not written as manuals of theology. Much of what St. Peter and St. Paul taught was not written down, but rather passed down to their disciples, who subsequently passed it on to their disciples, etcetera.

Ok. I've never heard that before. They seem to flow perfectly with the rest of the Bible.

I will study this further, thank you.

 

[AllieWi]

MichaelH, you're not going to make it easy on me, are you.

I said what I said in response to what someone else said about Catholics.

Obviously the problem of people not submitting themselves entirely to God, whether Catholic or not, is a problem. I'd rather someone become a non-Catholic Christian than not become a Christian at all because one's relationship with God trumps everything.

The blatant anti-Catholic bigotry is getting very old. This is a Christian forum, and while there will be disagreements and discussions and arguments, there should always remain a mutual respect for one another. I'm not getting that from you one bit.

I apologize if I sound rude in any way toward Catholics. I admit i disagree with a lot of the teachings because thru my own study of the bible they seem unbiblical. But, I'm a baby christian -- I have family and countless people in my life and whom I have met that say they were raised catholic and have turned away from God. Now maybe I am having selective perception-- I'm willing to admit that may be the case.

I do however very much enjoy the information from Catholics on this thread and will continue to seek answers from people like you who clearly love Jesus, despite our differences. God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow !!

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I apologize if I sound rude in any way toward Catholics. I admit i disagree with a lot of the teachings because thru my own study of the bible they seem unbiblical. But, I'm a baby christian -- I have family and countless people in my life and whom I have met that say they were raised catholic and have turned away from God. Now maybe I am having selective perception-- I'm willing to admit that may be the case.

I do however very much enjoy the information from Catholics on this thread and will continue to seek answers from people like you who clearly love Jesus, despite our differences. God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow !!

Allie, I think you've been most kind here

I have no problem with anyone here who has doubt or even criticisms of the Catholic Church. It is quite alright and I'd be a hypocrite if I told you you couldn't feel that way while I express my concerns with Protestantism. It's a form and the idea is to discuss in Christian fellowship despite our differences.

What divides us is fairly small, what brings us together is huge, and what separates us from the world is enormous.

My concern is bigotry. I think if something can't be done or said in charity, I'm not convinced it should be done or said at all. I'd prefer getting back to a sense of true Christian charity in this place.

You seem to be bringing that out here -- so you are always welcome in this place You're certainly better at it than I am.

 

[MichaelH]

MichaelH, you're not going to make it easy on me, are you.

I said what I said in response to what someone else said about Catholics.

Obviously the problem of people not submitting themselves entirely to God, whether Catholic or not, is a problem. I'd rather someone become a non-Catholic Christian than not become a Christian at all because one's relationship with God trumps everything.

The blatant anti-Catholic bigotry is getting very old. This is a Christian forum, and while there will be disagreements and discussions and arguments, there should always remain a mutual respect for one another. I'm not getting that from you one bit.

I am not Anti Catholic. Your the one that made the term Catholic Cafeteria. Sounds pretty bigotry to me. In fact I am very denominational tolerant. You don't give your money to a Catholic organization to help feed the poor if you believe they are in error. C.A.M.S is a excellent example (in my book) or a Christian organization doing the will of God. I know they are in the will of God because the food has never run out. Most folks doing pantry's on their own because it seems right without direction from the Lord always run out and have to turn people away. If it's from God, it never drys up or runs out.

I have enough sense to know it's God. Now if it happens to be Catholic then that is just what it is. I don't care, I just want God involved.

If your embarrassed about Catholic Children kneeling and praying before a chopped out human heart, which would greatly embarrass me if my Pastor brought one to Church to use in service, then that is also not my fault. Just because I mentioned it and can provide lots of proof of it, even letters written by clergy about how the felt closer to God kneeling in front of a corpse to pray is also not my fault.

It is what it is, deal with it. But don't get upset and cry when someone mentions it. It's real and it's being practiced by Catholics.

I fully understand in the U.S Catholics would most likely not practice such things because of the strict laws of having human remains laying around everywhere.

Now i have been compared to Benny Hinn, and blab it and grab it and....... all kinds of things. None of those things bother me a bit.

Do you know why?

Because I can back what I believe with Scripture and go line upon line.

So don't tell me about this bigotry................. Things are what they are, and if we don't like it we seek the Lord for another church if that be his will.

I don't have to like what the Catholic church practices. That does not mean I just shut them out either. If God is involved, then I am interested.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I am not Anti Catholic. Your the one that made the term Catholic Cafeteria. Sounds pretty bigotry to me. In fact I am very denominational tolerant. You don't give your money to a Catholic organization to help feed the poor if you believe they are in error. C.A.M.S is a excellent example (in my book) or a Christian organization doing the will of God. I know they are in the will of God because the food has never run out. Most folks doing pantry's on their own because it seems right without direction from the Lord always run out and have to turn people away. If it's from God, it never drys up or runs out.

I have enough sense to know it's God. Now if it happens to be Catholic then that is just what it is. I don't care, I just want God involved.

If your embarrassed about Catholic Children kneeling and praying before a chopped out human heart, which would greatly embarrass me if my Pastor brought one to Church to use in service, then that is also not my fault. Just because I mentioned it and can provide lots of proof of it, even letters written by clergy about how the felt closer to God kneeling in front of a corpse to pray is also not my fault.

It is what it is, deal with it. But don't get upset and cry when someone mentions it. It's real and it's being practiced by Catholics.

I fully understand in the U.S Catholics would most likely not practice such things because of the strict laws of having human remains laying around everywhere.

Now i have been compared to Benny Hinn, and blab it and grab it and....... all kinds of things. None of those things bother me a bit.

Do you know why?

Because I can back what I believe with Scripture and go line upon line.

So don't tell me about this bigotry................. Things are what they are, and if we don't like it we seek the Lord for another church if that be his will.

I don't have to like what the Catholic church practices. That does not mean I just shut them out either. If God is involved, then I am interested.

To begin, there is nothing bigoted about exposing something that simply is. I did not coin the term "Cafeteria Catholic." It is a term that could also extend out to other denominations and religions. Though I said it in regards to Catholics because that was the topic.

Perhaps you are not bigoted toward Catholics, but you must understand that half of the remarks you are saying are very much coming off that way. It's not because you have criticisms with the Church or that you disagree with it, but it's because you are marking hostile AND faulty remark about it without understanding what it really is.

Even if you hated the Catholic Church, that is well and good, but only if you know precisely what it is you are hating.

I've seen you compared to Benny Hinn, and if you were to compare ME to -- oh I don't know -- let's say Mel Gibson since he has a history of saying abusive things AND bringing Catholic discussion to the mainstream (but watered down), then that wouldn't bother me either.

The difference is the attack on the Church. I've taken the abuse upon myself before. It's fine because it's just me. If someone were to attack Jesus to your face, I'm sure that would be a different story for you. My defense of the Church isn't about myself, it's about my faith.

MichaelH, I'm prepared to forgive you, and if I've said anything out of poor judgement, I truly am sorry for that. You certainly don't deserve any attacks or bad remarks -- you really don't. But I do encourage to take a step back and just reflect on some of what you've said. I'm not telling you to become a Catholic or even consider it...but I am asking you to rethink your approach in how you are expressing your criticisms, because whether you see it or not, it has bothered many of us here -- including some of the non-Catholics -- because it has been bigoted, even if you don't realize it.

This isn't about heresies nor things I haven't even addressed yet. It's about a mutual, Christian respect. No more, no less.

 

[MichaelH]

MichaelH, I'm prepared to forgive you, and if I've said anything out of poor judgement, I truly am sorry for that. You certainly don't deserve any attacks or bad remarks -- you really don't. But I do encourage to take a step back and just reflect on some of what you've said. I'm not telling you to become a Catholic or even consider it...but I am asking you to rethink your approach in how you are expressing your criticisms, because whether you see it or not, it has bothered many of us here -- including some of the non-Catholics -- because it has been bigoted, even if you don't realize it.

This isn't about heresies nor things I haven't even addressed yet. It's about a mutual, Christian respect. No more, no less.

If you read my post Brother you find.

1) I do come off strong.
2) I can be reasoned with. I take the time to fully read the other view as I sow that hoping someone takes the time to understand my view.
3) I don't call names or attack personally. I will press hard questions in an attempt to box someone in with their own logic but I don't take anything personal.
4) I prefer Catholics over JW's (And lots of other things) only because when it comes to important things like Jesus not being the brother of some Devil or created being, Catholics are in my corner.
5) Catholicism have taken a common sense approach to mans doctrine such as Trinity. "A mystery of Christian faith" with the explanation that it's a Mystery and we never tried to explain it. I respect that, I don't respect someone ignoring tons of scriptures to prove something. I believe Jesus has always been with the Father as he stated, I believe He is not his own Father. Trinity says the same thing but adds the Godhead in a way it was never used in Greek. close enough for me.

Now, there are lots of things I don't buy into. Things in scriptures we agree, cutting out someones heart and having kids pray in front of it I definitely don't agree and I doubt any explanation would be reasonable enough to convince me otherwise.

However just because it's practiced in area's void of laws to prevent such things and hard core Catholic practices then I understand that. In fact I doubt lots of US Catholics even know about any of that.

When there is a Core denomination such as 7th day Adventist where all Churches follow the exact same thing then if something at the top is found bad, then the whole rest gets a label. I try not to do that.

It's not your fault so many Catholics priest have been brought up on charges of child sexual abuse and homosexuality. It does not reflect Rome's stance on such things. What spirit got in? How are there so many? Who knows but I would not use that to prove something against the Church as it was a choice by some very misguided priest.

Word of Faith for some odd reason is believed to be a denomination............. It's not, it was a label by those that oppose certain teaching about faith. Through the years though anything on TV that has Wealth and preaches is called Word of Faith.

It was meant to be a label and not a nice one at that. I don't really care and don't mind being grouped in the Word of Faith bunch.

So, I try to keep it honest and real. If harsh then that is something I need to work on. However I don't take anything personal as any bitterness is a fools endeavor and deadly.

 

[ixoye_8]

I apologize if I sound rude in any way toward Catholics. I admit i disagree with a lot of the teachings because thru my own study of the bible they seem unbiblical. But, I'm a baby christian -- I have family and countless people in my life and whom I have met that say they were raised catholic and have turned away from God. Now maybe I am having selective perception-- I'm willing to admit that may be the case.


I do however very much enjoy the information from Catholics on this thread and will continue to seek answers from people like you who clearly love Jesus, despite our differences. God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow !!

the Pharisees complained when someone did something that was not as the Torah said it should be ..
In Christ we have liberty ..
this means as long as you are not breaking the 10 commandments or any SPECIFICALLY enumerated sins in the NT (believers are not bound by Mosaic Law) then to judge another under what you follow is unrighteous .. and all you are doing is showing all you have a critical spirit aka a hater ..

notice these same ones always never use compassion but condescension ..

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
Rom 2:15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Jam 4:17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

do you understand ???
if spitting was a sin to you and you do it .. YOU SINNED ..
if it is not a sin to me and I do it .. I DID NOT SIN ..
so YOU cannot tell me it is a sin ..
because YOUR conscience/heart cannot judge my conscience/heart ..

 

[Brother David]

Catholics do take their religion from scriptures. Unless................ it's something they added in. In that case the Scripture (Word of God) takes a back seat.

Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jesus commissioned the last 12 Apostles of the Lamb to give the Word. Mary and the bead thing can be traced back as early as over 1,000 years after the Apostles had given the final Word.

prayer is talked about a lot in scriptures and is very important to all believers. If we were to pray to any other god or kneel before a corpse and pray then it would have been mentioned in the Word of God.

Catholics don't just pray to Mary with a bunch of beads in their hand (50 more beads added in 2003 by the Pope) You find them kneeling down before a cut out human heart, a body, a picture of some saint and anything that is not tacked down and moving.

We had a thread and I had pics of different Catholics churches practicing these things and the thread was closed.

it is just the way it is....... We believe scripture only for the Word is truth, and Life.

Blessings.

Amen.......tell the truth !!