Must one Hold to the trinity to be saved?
- Thread starter YeshuaFan
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People consider a triune God hearsay which rules out everything you say as well, but that aside, the one God is present in heaven, present in Jesus and present in the believer's heart. God is Spirit.
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That's fine, that's on topic, but I was referring to the 'Predestination' derailment.
Will you allow me to say with reference to the Trinity, that those who believe JESUS CHRIST IS LORD and accept him as their Saviour, are undoubtedly... going to spend eternity with Him?
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That's also on topic.
Thank you, I can turn in now, a contented man.
DMT, for many years I've been watching the struggle over trying to define an eternal God at the level of mere, human language. I've read many trinitarian doctrinal statements, each one struggling to try and paint a portrait in the reader's mind of One who is beyond effective description through human speech and thought. What's worse are those who THINK they have such a solid grasp of His absolute nature that they can put down others with their high-minded brow-beating and referencing from scripture their cascade of verses.
Just from my perspective, I know that God is God. Jesus prayed to the Father, and the Spirit lit upon Him in the form of a dove. He said He would send the Comforter, and yet that He would never leave nor forsake us. It is enough that He reveals Himself to those who seek Him diligently, and in that revelation, we can see of Him what is beyond words.
We see the unity, and we see the individuality expressed in this realm, which is the only one we can claim to grasp what we see and experience, and even then we can be wrong.
Wow. Talk about fallible.
That's the key. We are fallible. Jesus did not say to us, "Thou shalt harbor an infallibly expressible belief about My nature and relationship within Myself." No. He said simply, "Come. Follow me."
So, I am comfortable with the thought of "trinity," and I know that He is. He said in Genesis 'Let US create man in OUR image.' I have reason to doubt He was talking to the angels, for they are created beings, not creators. How do we grapple with that intellectually?
Well, I gave it up a long time ago, and simply asked the Lord to give to me His Ways and His Thoughts, no matter how much higher they all are than mine. I want them. I covet them..
I praise Him for what He gives to us.
Amen
MM
Agree.
I here you but I am not convinced that that is a valid reason. Why would using the word "Person" be a problem????
If and when we refuse or do not like the word "PERSON" as describing the Trinity, then we are accepting the idea of "Modelism" even if we say that we/They aren't.
Isn't that kind of like saying that I believe in Jesus but I do not like the term Christ?
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Suggestion: Instead of saying 'person' how about saying power? It gives pause for thought.
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And yet God calls Lucifer a man in His rebuke...
Isa 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?"
KJV
Thus our Heavenly Father has a different way He views that definition of "man" than what some today think...
Ezek 28:2
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
KJV
Like the Genesis 1 Scripture shows, the image likeness of man originates from God's Own image likeness, which originates in the Heavenly. So the Heavenly application of the idea of 'a man' was always first, before man in the flesh. This is why when angels have appeared on earth per His Word, they appeared with the image of man, even though those angels were not in the flesh, like the Genesis 19 example with Lot. And once Satan comes to earth with his angels at the end of this world, per Revelation 12:7 forward, the image of man is what they will appear on earth with, and that without having been born in the flesh through woman's womb.
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This, yet again, is a fallacy among many behind reliance upon English translations. Many doctrines have been foisted upon unsuspecting people on the basis of such weaknesses. This is one of a number of arguments used in support of the serpent seed error...because Satan was allegedly a man on this earth, and could then allegedly copulate with Eve rather than it having been a matter of beastiality.
The Hebrew word "'iysh" translated as "man" in many cases can also be rendered "fellow," or "a certain" and a number of other personage indications without it being forced into a confining box whereby it allegedly portrays Satan as a man like us. He was not formed from the dust as we.
Just wanted to put that in the mix before someone assumes that Isaiah was somehow claiming something that isn't.
MM
I was getting more of a Modulaism or Oneness vibe though!
The problem is that in that passage it seems to be a reference to the King of Tyre, and also he was used as a type to illustrate to us the fall of Satan
Jesus is very God, as is the Holy Spirit!
Antichrist, titles of
(1) the Assyrian, +Mic_5:5 note. (2) the disperser, Nah_2:1 mg, lit. "the hammer." (3) fierce king, Isa_19:4. (4) foolish shepherd, Zec_11:15. (5) a Grecian, Zec_9:13. (6) the head, Psa_83:2. (7) idol shepherd, Zec_11:17. (8) the king, Dan_11:36. (9) the king of Babylon, Isa_14:4. Jer_51:31. (10) king of the north, Dan_11:40 note. (11) the king of Sheshach, Jer_25:26. (12) little horn, Dan_7:8. (13) the man of the earth, Psa_10:18. (14) man of sin, 2Th_2:3. (15) mighty and strong one, Isa_28:2; Isa_10:34. (16) mighty one of the heathen, Eze_33:11. (17) son of perdition, 2Th_2:3. (18) that wicked, 2Th_2:8. (19) the wicked, Psa_9:5; Psa_9:17.
A 'man' to be avoided.
All we can say with certainty is that all 3 of them are called God, and they are all Yahweh, but still but one Yahweh!
Yes indeed. Jesus is the power of God and the wisdom of God. Jesus was there in the beginning, He is the 'I' in Proverbs 8.
But you are of Him in Christ Jesus, Who was made to us wisdom from God — even righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption; (1Co 1:30)
But to those who are called — both Jews and Greeks — Christ is God’s power and God’s wisdom. (1Co 1:24)
In Whom (Jesus) are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. (Col 2:3)
Pro 8:22 "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
Pro 8:23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
Pro 8:24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth;
Pro 8:26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primal dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
Pro 8:28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
Pro 8:29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
Pro 8:30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men.
Pro 8:32 "Now therefore, listen to me, my children, For blessed are those who keep my ways.
Pro 8:33 Hear instruction and be wise, And do not disdain it.
Pro 8:34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors.
Pro 8:35 For whoever finds me finds life, And obtains favor from the LORD;
Pro 8:36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death."
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