Yes, I believe I am free from this, but let me think further about this question. I know that some here think I am legalistic, but I don't. For one thing, unlike some other Messianics, I do not preach at those who are not. I understand those who are not. And I have seen a lot of NUTS who claim to be Messianic. Just as in the church, there are always some nuts!
My Questioned Discussion #1
- Thread starter TezriLi
- Start date
Then I will think about it. I have written small books and pamphlets before -- self-edited and self-published, but that was years ago. . . .
I think it's definitely worth a prayer to the Lord about. Christians books aren't that diificult to write especially for genuine people like you, I believe you'd find it easy if it's the Lord's will for you.....
Yes some have forgotten they are righteous in Christ, by faith and have gone back to the law and works of the flesh. The perfect law of liberty is being SET FREE from the law of Moses, not being in bondage to it!
Look, these things are well covered in the epistles of the New Covenant..In that I am under the Law of Chirst, not the law of Moses...and HIS COMMANDMENT to love as He has loved me...is the ONLY WAY to fulfill that which the law represented. I could never steal, cheat, lie, covet...etc... When I walk in "agape" love...which is a love that is ONLY given by the Spirit of God. The letter or written code cannot be kept, because of the flesh. You yourself admit that you do not keep the law! So how can you promote and teach a standard you cannot keep yourself? No only when we accept the love of Christ and love others with that love are we "keeping" the commandments of God. Thus John writes this!
1Jo 3:23 ¶ And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
This is the SIMPLICTY that is in Christ..."nothing profits, but faith working by love"
With all DUE respect, because I respect you and believe you deserve my respect, the writer said that he would keep Torah, and by doing so, he would walk in liberty because he sought G-d's teachings; therefore, he said, he would speak of Torah before kings and thus not be ashamed. He would delight himself in the commands, which he loved, and would meditate upon them [Psalm 119]. Here, the "law of liberty" is defined and here, James reaches back to the Psalms, the only Scripture James had besides the Prophets and Torah.
I am curious: who do you believe inspired the Scriptures -- breathed them into the writers? I know you know Who. I don't understand why you APPEAR to disregard 2/3 of the Bible. The Bible is clear about Who is the Word and Who controlled what is written. The same One told Moses what to write. There is One G-d Who expresses Himself as Father, Son, and H Spirit.
You wrote above, "You yourself admit that you do not keep the law! So how can you promote and teach a standard you cannot keep yourself? No only when we accept the love of Christ and love others with that love are we 'keeping' the commandments of God. Thus John writes this!"
Do you perfectly keep all the things in the Apostolic writings? Are you perfect? If you are of the Arminian theology, then perhaps you think you can; if you are of the Reformed theology, you know you can't. I have accepted the Reformed theology and I admit that I have not given it enough study to be proficient; however, if I accept Reformed theology and say that I do not keep everything perfectly. I am human; I err. But where have you seen me "promoting and teaching a standard" I cannot keep? I have not. I have answered the questions asked of me. Period. That's it. And do not the Reformed believers admit that they are not perfect? I am not either. That is where the grace and mercy of G-d comes in, Mitspa, for both you and me.
One of the problems many have with regard to the Torah is that they don't understand the the Torah is All About Love. That is unfortunate, because they see it as (1) written and commanded by an angry god, (2) authored by Moses, or (3) written by a god who changed his mind.
Mitspa, from the beginning here, I have enjoyed you, your humor, your wit, your thoughtful writings, but we just cannot keep this up. I don't enjoy debating when it turns into argument or when it becomes the same ol' same ol' over and over again. Can we stop this and just be friends?
Im sorry thats clearly WRONG and contradicts the whole of the New Testament...here is the law to which James is speaking...NOT the law of Moses ...but LIBERTY from the law of Moses.
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
This is the perfect law of liberty...the gospel NOT the law of Moses...
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
ONLY the Ten Commandments was written and engraved on stones!
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
This is the perfect law of liberty...the gospel NOT the law of Moses...
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
ONLY the Ten Commandments was written and engraved on stones!
I still like you
tezriLi, thanks for your very honest post!
I have a 3 year old daughter. I hear your story and others...and I confess I am terrified. Would it be insensitive/inappropriate of me to ask if you see there was any way your father could have better protected you from these situations?
My precious father was part of the machine.
David, don't make your daughter scared of people, but teach her to be strong. Teach her do know right from wrong. Teach her respect for her body and for the bodies of others. Teach her that she has literal value. Teach her that her things are her things, and she has complete control over them, and this will naturally apply to her personhood. Teach her that she has boundaries and everyone else has boundaries. Love her. Be the most loving daddy you can possibly be, so that she will value you, your opinions, your love, and she won't go seeking love in the wrong places.
Let her make mistakes, and when she SEES you make mistakes, be the first to admit it, but Do Not martyr yourself. Do not be a floor mat to anyone -- even to her.
She needs to have pride in you. Be the best gentleman, too. Be the best husband you can be, because she will think that whatever you say to your wife, however you treat her, whatever you give her is what she should expect.
Don't be terrified. Choose the ones who are in your social circles.
Bless you, David. You can do this! Others before you have managed, and so can you!
There was a great wall hanging that I clung to while rearing my children, and I referred to it often. There are other versions of it, but I will find one . . . .
A single version: http://www.empowermentresources.com/info2/childrenlearn-long_version.html
Several versions:
https://www.google.com/webhp?source...pv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=children+learn+what+they+live
What a wonderful, encouraging, thoughtful post. Thank you!
TYPO! '98. Not that it matters to anyone else -- I just don't want to lie.. . . That church excommunicated me in'88, and I've moved on with joy.
"excommunicate"
I really don't understand that term, other than to be a Catholic type thing? Would you like to discuss your former group?
LOOOooooong story.
In that church, which was a very close copy of the R Catholic church *, although they would not have admitted that, a true member of that church was a church-worker. I soloed in the home church and at the conventions, taught Sunday school, actually delivered a couple sermons when asked, was in some musical groups, played the flute in their orchestra, and so on. We were valued to the church according to our giving, our activities, and our personal connections.
So I had a daily job with a very large company in my area. That job was to drive from building to building, filling in at the front office while other receptionists took their lunch breaks. I had to wear a watch. Unfortunately, both I and my father are allergic to certain metals. All the wrist watches caused a very itchy, stinging rash.
This church did not allow us to wear jewelry that touched our skin, other than wrist watches, and they had just put out a little book with all their rules. I read through the little book and read it to my husband. We both agreed that since they didn't mention it, I should be allowed to wear a watch on a necklace, although necklaces ere banned otherwise. Not one to hide things, I thought nothing of wearing the new watch to church.
In the meantime, the pastor had told me I could not wear my wedding band in "his" church. He didn't mind if I wore it elsewhere, but he demanded that I take it off before entering. I don't do well with hiding stuff, but I seriously did my best to comply.
So there was a woman in the church who hated me and harassed me. She saw my watch and sicced the pastor on me, as was her weekly activity. He told me to remove it. Tired of their harassment, I told him I would not, and furthermore, I would not continue to remove my wedding band for him. As a result, he removed from me all my activities I did for the church, except for the meetings I organized in a retirement home, because no one else would do it. In other words, because I no longer had no work in the church, I was no longer a member. My membership was removed.
They didn't want me to come back, but my husband was a member, so in order to support him, I continued to come on Sunday mornings. No one had the nerve to tell me not to come back, so I did for a few months.
* It was like R. Catholic church in that it had a "pope" and powerful "priests," and a lot of other things emulated them; however, the church was a Pentecostal one. A quiet Pentecostal one, in that demonstrations were very unusual, except at the summer camps.
I for sure would have removed myself along with my wedding band. I am surprised they even had music. Instead of bringing people to liberty, they brought them more into bondage.
I didn't feel free to go. My husband and I were both life-long members, both of us very active in the church, he as a teacher, consultant, musician, and more. As much as I wanted to, it would have been hard on my husband and our children. When I was booted, I actually begged my husband not to go because of this but to stay until and IF he WANTED to go.I for sure would have removed myself along with my wedding band. I am surprised they even had music. Instead of bringing people to liberty, they brought them more into bondage.
It reminds me of a verse from Milton.I for sure would have removed myself along with my wedding band. I am surprised they even had music. Instead of bringing people to liberty, they brought them more into bondage.
"Much of the Soul they talk, but all awry;
And in themselves seek virtue
and to themselves
All glory arrogate
"
Pentecostal? Wow... I have never heard of this group, I don't believe? I know a minister in Africa who spends much time dealing with demonic spirits that has come from these false charismatic groups.
Question. And I am not being facetious -- I don't know the answer. Mitspa wrote above, "false charismatic groups." Are there "real" and "false" charismatic groups?
When I was among this group, they made sure that we understood that they were Pentecostal, not charismatic. I didn't care enough to learn the difference, other than what occurred in that church. For example, if someone stood in that church and just started speaking using what is commonly called "glossolalia," they were likely to be escorted outside with a firm reprimand. However, at the altar after services during church conventions, the attitude was "anything goes."
When I was among this group, they made sure that we understood that they were Pentecostal, not charismatic. I didn't care enough to learn the difference, other than what occurred in that church. For example, if someone stood in that church and just started speaking using what is commonly called "glossolalia," they were likely to be escorted outside with a firm reprimand. However, at the altar after services during church conventions, the attitude was "anything goes."