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Mystery Babylon...

Dec 23, 2018
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what im asking is scripture on why you believe what you believe..im interested in why you believe in what you believe concerning your interpretation about the military etc..can you explain yourself through scripture?
the military comment was not mine . I was replying to the part about Harlot ,some entity . City, country, institution .
My point was America today fits the description .
 

Fish Catcher Jim

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Feb 7, 2015
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we rightly divide scripture by the Spirit of God..He is our teacher,He knows the deep things of God and He is the one who leads us into all truth..I eat from one source which is the Spirit and that same Spirit feeds me through the words in the Kjv...when i was a kid at school in class.i remember we all had the same text books..we didn't choose which type of text suited us best as we all had to be on the same page for our sake and the teacher..for how would the teacher teach if his text were different to ours..it would be kind of silly really..all im saying is that it is a major inconvenience that we all read different bibles..it doesn't make any sense..the bibles i have seen quoted on this forum are drastically different to the one i read..how do i relate to people through the word when such is the case?
Greetings Brother,
If you choose to read only the KJV then so be it but leave it at that. Please stop pushing this.

One can not rightly divide scripture without using other scripture. All must line up with His Word.


I eat from one source which is the Spirit and that same Spirit feeds me through the words in the Kjv...
God gave us Teachers and Pastors and so forth for a reason. These are the sources I am talking about.

Blessings
 
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RDJ

Dec 17, 2018
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Very true, but with this prophecy in things I've heard and guessing , the temptation seems to be adding details that John in first century did not specify . Obviously one is what is a Mark ...today it could be technology .
What city is the harlot or what agency ...if it's not specified ,obviously God knows but we cannot be specific .
My take or guess on America or a rebuilt Babylon is just that a speculation . There was NO North America known by John ...
We are told not to add or subtract for this book ..

Now Daniel mentioned kingdoms in his statue but there were kingdoms after Rome. Some of his revelation was secret . God knows ,the Spirit inspires but some things are only for Him to know till the end

Peace
the new covenant is a spiritual covenant...so whatever the mark is you can be sure its a spiritual mark..the mark has to do with worship..more specifically a style of worship..its all spiritual..this is Gods word we are talking about..Revelations was written for us..John just wrote it..he didnt need to know what he was writing because it is for us..everything in the bible is for us to learn from..we can accurately interpret scripture if we work with the spirit..no guessing needed..i think you need to stop listening to whoever is teaching you this nonsense and start trusting in God's word..there are no mistakes in his Word...take a bible and pray for God to show you who he is..i would suggest the Kjv
 

RDJ

Dec 17, 2018
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the military comment was not mine . I was replying to the part about Harlot ,some entity . City, country, institution .
My point was America today fits the description .
america is the second beast and false prophet..the world follows after america..tv..music..fashion..ideas...everything is spiritual..america has power over peoples minds..there is no world war 3 its all spiritual
 

Fish Catcher Jim

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america is the second beast and false prophet..the world follows after america..tv..music..fashion..ideas...everything is spiritual..america has power over peoples minds..there is no world war 3 its all spiritual
Please include your resources in this claim.
Thank You
 
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Dec 23, 2018
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Don't be to sure about that
you are correct of course . I have heard it preached as possible only . In today's world Babylon itself could be rebuilt .
I have heard so many state definitively . And yes I read left behind and other ideas .
Jesus returns ..that is what we KNOW . we can watch for signs in the world of the antichrist, beast, harlot , woman whose children hide in the desert . But I always tell anyone we cannot be sure of when . Not add or subtract from this scripture . Some things seem obvious as we watch the news . Sadly to me Jesus is not welcome everywhere ,yet in some of those places people dream of the Son who have no teAching on Him . That indeed is the SPIRIT .
peace
 
Jul 14, 2014
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Is America "A Beast" in the sense of a large and powerful military empire - yes.

Does America have a "Harlot" Civil government system riding on her back - yes.

Is America either of the two beasts listed in Revelation? Not specifically....

China and Russia clearly meet these same criteria as well....

Many nations currently don't meet the criteria that could coalesce into a big military empire..... The EU doesn't doesn't have a Military. Neither does Japan..... Turkey hasn't been a major world military power since WWI.... Etc.

We don't know who makes up these beasts for the time being.....

But it's pretty interesting to see who the current major world powers are trying to keep from coalescing: The EU and the Middle East.... hmmmm... Do they know something we don't.... Or are they just responding to the obvious fact that 90% of the gigantic wars over the last 4,000 years happened in these 2 places....

Also we don't know simply because of at least one key missing point:

The Revelation beasts are not empowered by the physical presence of Satan until AFTER he loses the war in heaven and is cast out of Heaven down to Earth - which occurs after the 7th seal is opened and Jesus now can make a claim to Heaven and Earth.

The physical events of the 6th and 7th seals simply haven't been recorded.... and we would probably have noticed stuff like major cataclysms that massively shift ALL continents out of their places effecting every mountain range or 1/3 of life on earth being killed off by massive stuff like gigantic meteors hitting earth.....

Anyway. I am glad this topic sparked some thinking.
 
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Jul 14, 2014
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As to a scriptural example of Mystery Babylon working.....

Daniel 3 - The passage of Nebuchadnezzar's golden image.

It is widely accepted that the image was not of a conventional god of the day but rather represented the Babylonian State - many believe it was an image of Ole Neb himself. The scripture doesn't specifically say though.

But notice the list of government officials there to officially inaugurate and bow down to it - we have a variety of administrators and various civil government officials - but we ALSO find judges and magistrates there to bow down to The State.

So they had a religion literally worshipping the state.... (Part 1)
They had the civil government bowing down (Part 2)
And they had the Judicial system bowing down (Part 3)

But notice outside of the purview of this system - we have the Military Empire (Nebuchadnezzar himself and his armies)... There is no mention of the military being coerced to bow down or even of Neb himself bowing to this image....
 
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Sep 3, 2009
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The Beast is an idiom used for a massive, powerful military empire.

The Harlot/Mystery Babylon is an idiom used for the system of civil government and state religion the Military Empire employs to keep it’s population under control.

The event in The Revelation shows an event when Military Empire gets fed up with the constant yammering and self-seeking of this civil government and religious system, as well as the restraint it forces..... At that point, The Military Empire simply throws off all pretense of caring about civil government and state religion and destroys it.
John, I have to disagree with your opinion that the Beast is an "idiom/symbol."

In the Revelation, the term beast refers to two related entities. Sometimes “the beast” refers to the ......….
1). end-times’ empire. The seven heads and ten horns indicate that the beast will be a coalition of nations that rises to power to subdue the earth under Satan’s control. Later references to “the beast” in Revelation picture
2). an individual—the man who is the political leader and head of the beastly empire.

The "Beast" or political leader of the Revelation is according to the Scriptures a Human Being....a Man. A man so consumed by Satan that there is no difference between the two and they will rule the world through a Beast System for the last 7 years of Daniels prophecy.

Actually the Scriptures tell us that there will be Two Beasts.

1). The Anti- Christ
2). The False Prophet

I for one believe that the 1st beast in Revelation is the Antichrist, the one who will “oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that HE sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God” which is seen in 2 Thess. 2:4.

In the Greek original, the word used for "HE" in Revelation 13 to describe the Antichrist and the False Prophet are personal pronouns indicating a real person and not a system or idiom.
 
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Sep 3, 2009
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Is America "A Beast" in the sense of a large and powerful military empire - yes.

Does America have a "Harlot" Civil government system riding on her back - yes.

Is America either of the two beasts listed in Revelation? Not specifically....

China and Russia clearly meet these same criteria as well....

Many nations currently don't meet the criteria that could coalesce into a big military empire..... The EU doesn't doesn't have a Military. Neither does Japan..... Turkey hasn't been a major world military power since WWI.... Etc.

We don't know who makes up these beasts for the time being.....

But it's pretty interesting to see who the current major world powers are trying to keep from coalescing: The EU and the Middle East.... hmmmm... Do they know something we don't.... Or are they just responding to the obvious fact that 90% of the gigantic wars over the last 4,000 years happened in these 2 places....

Also we don't know simply because of at least one key missing point:

The Revelation beasts are not empowered by the physical presence of Satan until AFTER he loses the war in heaven and is cast out of Heaven down to Earth - which occurs after the 7th seal is opened and Jesus now can make a claim to Heaven and Earth.

The physical events of the 6th and 7th seals simply haven't been recorded.... and we would probably have noticed stuff like major cataclysms that massively shift ALL continents out of their places effecting every mountain range or 1/3 of life on earth being killed off by massive stuff like gigantic meteors hitting earth.....

Anyway. I am glad this topic sparked some thinking.
John, without a doubt there have been many Antichrists in the world. Many Antichrist world powers have also ruled.

Rev. 16 says that a 200 million man "Kings of the East" army will invade the Holy Lands and walk into it over the dry river bed of the Euphrates River.

1 John 2:18 ......….
"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

Then as a "Futurist" I certainly believe that the events of Revelation's judgment are yet in the future.

I believe that something big and devastating will happen very soon which will then allow the nations of the world to come together in a religious fervor to try and find out what it was that happened. That will allow the A/C and false prophet to come to power because they will have the answers that the world will accept.

Daniel 12:4...………..
"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

That is then answered in the Scripture as well.

2nd Thess. 2:4...……...
"who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

The A/C will claim to be God and people in that day will then accept His mark of acceptance so that they can buy sell and trade to be able to eat and survive. They will not understand that the taking of the Mark of the Beast is eternal damnation for them.

Thanks for posting the subject!!!!!!!
 
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Jul 14, 2014
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Major, My friend - I do not think we are in any sort of disagreement.

Notice in Daniel - the first "Beast" is identified as the Babylonian Empire. This military empire is Nebuchadnezzar's. Old Neb is the one compelling everybody to bow down to the image of the Babylonian State - it was not some miscellaneous administrative fiat voted in by a large faceless body of elected or appointed officials. But - once he said it, they enforced it to the fullest of their ability. Notice Mystery Babylon (Civil Government and religion of state worship) along for the ride

Darius did the same later on in Daniel with the Persian "Beast"... That's why Daniel got pitched into the lion's den...

The Roman Cesar's did the same with the Roman beast... It's a matter of record that the Roman Cesar's demanded worship as god and took on the title of "high priest" (pontifex Maximus) for every legal religion in the empire. The various Roman legions worshipped their standards as god and devoted their lives to these standards...

Robespierre did the same in the French Revolution...

Adolph Hitler did the same in more recent history with his German beast.
He famously demanded that churches post a picture of him on their altars and hang up Nazi symbols along side of their crosses...

And the two beasts in Revelation will do the same. They are military empires headed by leaders. These leaders will variously demand worship of the state and themselves as God on earth. The State will happily go right along with it - but would not have had the chutzpah to follow through with it otherwise.

So yes.. Entirely consistent. No disagreement so far as I can tell.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Major, My friend - I do not think we are in any sort of disagreement.

Notice in Daniel - the first "Beast" is identified as the Babylonian Empire. This military empire is Nebuchadnezzar's. Old Neb is the one compelling everybody to bow down to the image of the Babylonian State - it was not some miscellaneous administrative fiat voted in by a large faceless body of elected or appointed officials. But - once he said it, they enforced it to the fullest of their ability. Notice Mystery Babylon (Civil Government and religion of state worship) along for the ride

Darius did the same later on in Daniel with the Persian "Beast"... That's why Daniel got pitched into the lion's den...

The Roman Cesar's did the same with the Roman beast... It's a matter of record that the Roman Cesar's demanded worship as god and took on the title of "high priest" (pontifex Maximus) for every legal religion in the empire. The various Roman legions worshipped their standards as god and devoted their lives to these standards...

Robespierre did the same in the French Revolution...

Adolph Hitler did the same in more recent history with his German beast.
He famously demanded that churches post a picture of him on their altars and hang up Nazi symbols along side of their crosses...

And the two beasts in Revelation will do the same. They are military empires headed by leaders. These leaders will variously demand worship of the state and themselves as God on earth. The State will happily go right along with it - but would not have had the chutzpah to follow through with it otherwise.

So yes.. Entirely consistent. No disagreement so far as I can tell.
Wonderful and forgive me if I misunderstood your original post!
 
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