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Mystery Babylon...

Dec 23, 2018
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what im asking is scripture on why you believe what you believe..im interested in why you believe in what you believe concerning your interpretation about the military etc..can you explain yourself through scripture?
the military comment was not mine . I was replying to the part about Harlot ,some entity . City, country, institution .
My point was America today fits the description .
 

Fish Catcher Jim

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we rightly divide scripture by the Spirit of God..He is our teacher,He knows the deep things of God and He is the one who leads us into all truth..I eat from one source which is the Spirit and that same Spirit feeds me through the words in the Kjv...when i was a kid at school in class.i remember we all had the same text books..we didn't choose which type of text suited us best as we all had to be on the same page for our sake and the teacher..for how would the teacher teach if his text were different to ours..it would be kind of silly really..all im saying is that it is a major inconvenience that we all read different bibles..it doesn't make any sense..the bibles i have seen quoted on this forum are drastically different to the one i read..how do i relate to people through the word when such is the case?
Greetings Brother,
If you choose to read only the KJV then so be it but leave it at that. Please stop pushing this.

One can not rightly divide scripture without using other scripture. All must line up with His Word.


I eat from one source which is the Spirit and that same Spirit feeds me through the words in the Kjv...
God gave us Teachers and Pastors and so forth for a reason. These are the sources I am talking about.

Blessings
 
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RDJ

Dec 17, 2018
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Very true, but with this prophecy in things I've heard and guessing , the temptation seems to be adding details that John in first century did not specify . Obviously one is what is a Mark ...today it could be technology .
What city is the harlot or what agency ...if it's not specified ,obviously God knows but we cannot be specific .
My take or guess on America or a rebuilt Babylon is just that a speculation . There was NO North America known by John ...
We are told not to add or subtract for this book ..

Now Daniel mentioned kingdoms in his statue but there were kingdoms after Rome. Some of his revelation was secret . God knows ,the Spirit inspires but some things are only for Him to know till the end

Peace
the new covenant is a spiritual covenant...so whatever the mark is you can be sure its a spiritual mark..the mark has to do with worship..more specifically a style of worship..its all spiritual..this is Gods word we are talking about..Revelations was written for us..John just wrote it..he didnt need to know what he was writing because it is for us..everything in the bible is for us to learn from..we can accurately interpret scripture if we work with the spirit..no guessing needed..i think you need to stop listening to whoever is teaching you this nonsense and start trusting in God's word..there are no mistakes in his Word...take a bible and pray for God to show you who he is..i would suggest the Kjv
 

RDJ

Dec 17, 2018
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the military comment was not mine . I was replying to the part about Harlot ,some entity . City, country, institution .
My point was America today fits the description .
america is the second beast and false prophet..the world follows after america..tv..music..fashion..ideas...everything is spiritual..america has power over peoples minds..there is no world war 3 its all spiritual
 

Fish Catcher Jim

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america is the second beast and false prophet..the world follows after america..tv..music..fashion..ideas...everything is spiritual..america has power over peoples minds..there is no world war 3 its all spiritual
Please include your resources in this claim.
Thank You
 
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Dec 23, 2018
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Don't be to sure about that
you are correct of course . I have heard it preached as possible only . In today's world Babylon itself could be rebuilt .
I have heard so many state definitively . And yes I read left behind and other ideas .
Jesus returns ..that is what we KNOW . we can watch for signs in the world of the antichrist, beast, harlot , woman whose children hide in the desert . But I always tell anyone we cannot be sure of when . Not add or subtract from this scripture . Some things seem obvious as we watch the news . Sadly to me Jesus is not welcome everywhere ,yet in some of those places people dream of the Son who have no teAching on Him . That indeed is the SPIRIT .
peace
 
Jul 14, 2014
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Is America "A Beast" in the sense of a large and powerful military empire - yes.

Does America have a "Harlot" Civil government system riding on her back - yes.

Is America either of the two beasts listed in Revelation? Not specifically....

China and Russia clearly meet these same criteria as well....

Many nations currently don't meet the criteria that could coalesce into a big military empire..... The EU doesn't doesn't have a Military. Neither does Japan..... Turkey hasn't been a major world military power since WWI.... Etc.

We don't know who makes up these beasts for the time being.....

But it's pretty interesting to see who the current major world powers are trying to keep from coalescing: The EU and the Middle East.... hmmmm... Do they know something we don't.... Or are they just responding to the obvious fact that 90% of the gigantic wars over the last 4,000 years happened in these 2 places....

Also we don't know simply because of at least one key missing point:

The Revelation beasts are not empowered by the physical presence of Satan until AFTER he loses the war in heaven and is cast out of Heaven down to Earth - which occurs after the 7th seal is opened and Jesus now can make a claim to Heaven and Earth.

The physical events of the 6th and 7th seals simply haven't been recorded.... and we would probably have noticed stuff like major cataclysms that massively shift ALL continents out of their places effecting every mountain range or 1/3 of life on earth being killed off by massive stuff like gigantic meteors hitting earth.....

Anyway. I am glad this topic sparked some thinking.
 
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As to a scriptural example of Mystery Babylon working.....

Daniel 3 - The passage of Nebuchadnezzar's golden image.

It is widely accepted that the image was not of a conventional god of the day but rather represented the Babylonian State - many believe it was an image of Ole Neb himself. The scripture doesn't specifically say though.

But notice the list of government officials there to officially inaugurate and bow down to it - we have a variety of administrators and various civil government officials - but we ALSO find judges and magistrates there to bow down to The State.

So they had a religion literally worshipping the state.... (Part 1)
They had the civil government bowing down (Part 2)
And they had the Judicial system bowing down (Part 3)

But notice outside of the purview of this system - we have the Military Empire (Nebuchadnezzar himself and his armies)... There is no mention of the military being coerced to bow down or even of Neb himself bowing to this image....
 
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Sep 3, 2009
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The Beast is an idiom used for a massive, powerful military empire.

The Harlot/Mystery Babylon is an idiom used for the system of civil government and state religion the Military Empire employs to keep it’s population under control.

The event in The Revelation shows an event when Military Empire gets fed up with the constant yammering and self-seeking of this civil government and religious system, as well as the restraint it forces..... At that point, The Military Empire simply throws off all pretense of caring about civil government and state religion and destroys it.
John, I have to disagree with your opinion that the Beast is an "idiom/symbol."

In the Revelation, the term beast refers to two related entities. Sometimes “the beast” refers to the ......….
1). end-times’ empire. The seven heads and ten horns indicate that the beast will be a coalition of nations that rises to power to subdue the earth under Satan’s control. Later references to “the beast” in Revelation picture
2). an individual—the man who is the political leader and head of the beastly empire.

The "Beast" or political leader of the Revelation is according to the Scriptures a Human Being....a Man. A man so consumed by Satan that there is no difference between the two and they will rule the world through a Beast System for the last 7 years of Daniels prophecy.

Actually the Scriptures tell us that there will be Two Beasts.

1). The Anti- Christ
2). The False Prophet

I for one believe that the 1st beast in Revelation is the Antichrist, the one who will “oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that HE sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God” which is seen in 2 Thess. 2:4.

In the Greek original, the word used for "HE" in Revelation 13 to describe the Antichrist and the False Prophet are personal pronouns indicating a real person and not a system or idiom.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Is America "A Beast" in the sense of a large and powerful military empire - yes.

Does America have a "Harlot" Civil government system riding on her back - yes.

Is America either of the two beasts listed in Revelation? Not specifically....

China and Russia clearly meet these same criteria as well....

Many nations currently don't meet the criteria that could coalesce into a big military empire..... The EU doesn't doesn't have a Military. Neither does Japan..... Turkey hasn't been a major world military power since WWI.... Etc.

We don't know who makes up these beasts for the time being.....

But it's pretty interesting to see who the current major world powers are trying to keep from coalescing: The EU and the Middle East.... hmmmm... Do they know something we don't.... Or are they just responding to the obvious fact that 90% of the gigantic wars over the last 4,000 years happened in these 2 places....

Also we don't know simply because of at least one key missing point:

The Revelation beasts are not empowered by the physical presence of Satan until AFTER he loses the war in heaven and is cast out of Heaven down to Earth - which occurs after the 7th seal is opened and Jesus now can make a claim to Heaven and Earth.

The physical events of the 6th and 7th seals simply haven't been recorded.... and we would probably have noticed stuff like major cataclysms that massively shift ALL continents out of their places effecting every mountain range or 1/3 of life on earth being killed off by massive stuff like gigantic meteors hitting earth.....

Anyway. I am glad this topic sparked some thinking.
John, without a doubt there have been many Antichrists in the world. Many Antichrist world powers have also ruled.

Rev. 16 says that a 200 million man "Kings of the East" army will invade the Holy Lands and walk into it over the dry river bed of the Euphrates River.

1 John 2:18 ......….
"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

Then as a "Futurist" I certainly believe that the events of Revelation's judgment are yet in the future.

I believe that something big and devastating will happen very soon which will then allow the nations of the world to come together in a religious fervor to try and find out what it was that happened. That will allow the A/C and false prophet to come to power because they will have the answers that the world will accept.

Daniel 12:4...………..
"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

That is then answered in the Scripture as well.

2nd Thess. 2:4...……...
"who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

The A/C will claim to be God and people in that day will then accept His mark of acceptance so that they can buy sell and trade to be able to eat and survive. They will not understand that the taking of the Mark of the Beast is eternal damnation for them.

Thanks for posting the subject!!!!!!!
 
Jul 14, 2014
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Major, My friend - I do not think we are in any sort of disagreement.

Notice in Daniel - the first "Beast" is identified as the Babylonian Empire. This military empire is Nebuchadnezzar's. Old Neb is the one compelling everybody to bow down to the image of the Babylonian State - it was not some miscellaneous administrative fiat voted in by a large faceless body of elected or appointed officials. But - once he said it, they enforced it to the fullest of their ability. Notice Mystery Babylon (Civil Government and religion of state worship) along for the ride

Darius did the same later on in Daniel with the Persian "Beast"... That's why Daniel got pitched into the lion's den...

The Roman Cesar's did the same with the Roman beast... It's a matter of record that the Roman Cesar's demanded worship as god and took on the title of "high priest" (pontifex Maximus) for every legal religion in the empire. The various Roman legions worshipped their standards as god and devoted their lives to these standards...

Robespierre did the same in the French Revolution...

Adolph Hitler did the same in more recent history with his German beast.
He famously demanded that churches post a picture of him on their altars and hang up Nazi symbols along side of their crosses...

And the two beasts in Revelation will do the same. They are military empires headed by leaders. These leaders will variously demand worship of the state and themselves as God on earth. The State will happily go right along with it - but would not have had the chutzpah to follow through with it otherwise.

So yes.. Entirely consistent. No disagreement so far as I can tell.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Major, My friend - I do not think we are in any sort of disagreement.

Notice in Daniel - the first "Beast" is identified as the Babylonian Empire. This military empire is Nebuchadnezzar's. Old Neb is the one compelling everybody to bow down to the image of the Babylonian State - it was not some miscellaneous administrative fiat voted in by a large faceless body of elected or appointed officials. But - once he said it, they enforced it to the fullest of their ability. Notice Mystery Babylon (Civil Government and religion of state worship) along for the ride

Darius did the same later on in Daniel with the Persian "Beast"... That's why Daniel got pitched into the lion's den...

The Roman Cesar's did the same with the Roman beast... It's a matter of record that the Roman Cesar's demanded worship as god and took on the title of "high priest" (pontifex Maximus) for every legal religion in the empire. The various Roman legions worshipped their standards as god and devoted their lives to these standards...

Robespierre did the same in the French Revolution...

Adolph Hitler did the same in more recent history with his German beast.
He famously demanded that churches post a picture of him on their altars and hang up Nazi symbols along side of their crosses...

And the two beasts in Revelation will do the same. They are military empires headed by leaders. These leaders will variously demand worship of the state and themselves as God on earth. The State will happily go right along with it - but would not have had the chutzpah to follow through with it otherwise.

So yes.. Entirely consistent. No disagreement so far as I can tell.
Wonderful and forgive me if I misunderstood your original post!
 
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Dec 23, 2018
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John, without a doubt there have been many Antichrists in the world. Many Antichrist world powers have also ruled.

Rev. 16 says that a 200 million man "Kings of the East" army will invade the Holy Lands and walk into it over the dry river bed of the Euphrates River.

1 John 2:18 ......….
"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

Then as a "Futurist" I certainly believe that the events of Revelation's judgment are yet in the future.

I believe that something big and devastating will happen very soon which will then allow the nations of the world to come together in a religious fervor to try and find out what it was that happened. That will allow the A/C and false prophet to come to power because they will have the answers that the world will accept.

Daniel 12:4...………..
"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

That is then answered in the Scripture as well.

2nd Thess. 2:4...……...
"who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

The A/C will claim to be God and people in that day will then accept His mark of acceptance so that they can buy sell and trade to be able to eat and survive. They will not understand that the taking of the Mark of the Beast is eternal damnation for them.

Thanks for posting the subject!!!!!!!
forgive the late reply .
I agree the A C is a person ,a ruler .
one question I have had is how the invasion synchs with Ezeliels invasion that is thwarted by God.

we don't always know, but are they referring to the same event or does Ezekiels prophecy come first .

With today's Events it's not crazy to think empires of the North and East will ally to try to invade Israel in some way .

Thanks
 
Sep 3, 2009
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forgive the late reply .
I agree the A C is a person ,a ruler .
one question I have had is how the invasion synchs with Ezeliels invasion that is thwarted by God.

we don't always know, but are they referring to the same event or does Ezekiels prophecy come first .

With today's Events it's not crazy to think empires of the North and East will ally to try to invade Israel in some way .

Thanks
Good question and it has been asked many times.

I do not know myself but if I had to say one way or the other, I would say that Ezekiel 38, "Gog and Magog" #1 would take place before the 7 year Tribulation.

Falling between the prophecies of Israel’s modern re-birth (Ezekiel 36-37) and the Millennium (Ezekiel 40-48), the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 has to take place during a time of peace after 1948 but before the 2nd coming, and all agree it hasn’t happened yet.

The invasion would seem to lead to a 7 year peace treaty that Daniel tells us about and that could be the Tribulation.

And second, the Church will have to disappear. Paul wrote that Israel had been hardened in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in (Romans 11:25). That means as long as the Church is around Israel won’t be able to recognize God’s involvement in their national life. But the Battle of Ezekiel 38 will be such a miraculous victory that it will re-awaken Israel to God’s presence. This means the Dispensation of Grace will have come to an end and the Church will be gone by the time this battle comes to an end.
 
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Good question and it has been asked many times.

I do not know myself but if I had to say one way or the other, I would say that Ezekiel 38, "Gog and Magog" #1 would take place before the 7 year Tribulation.

Falling between the prophecies of Israel’s modern re-birth (Ezekiel 36-37) and the Millennium (Ezekiel 40-48), the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 has to take place during a time of peace after 1948 but before the 2nd coming, and all agree it hasn’t happened yet.

The invasion would seem to lead to a 7 year peace treaty that Daniel tells us about and that could be the Tribulation.

And second, the Church will have to disappear. Paul wrote that Israel had been hardened in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in (Romans 11:25). That means as long as the Church is around Israel won’t be able to recognize God’s involvement in their national life. But the Battle of Ezekiel 38 will be such a miraculous victory that it will re-awaken Israel to God’s presence. This means the Dispensation of Grace will have come to an end and the Church will be gone by the time this battle comes to an end.
I dont know about the church disappearing. I dont really get that from Romans 11:25. It doesnt say anything about church disappearing. Just the fulness of the gentiles coming in.

Thats just some peoples interpretation but it doesnt actually say 'the church is going to disappear'. As for fullness of gentiles coming in, wouldnt that mean there will be more christians coming INTO Israel. Previous verses talk about grafting, if you know anything grafting its uniting two different kinds of trees into one tree. You cut into a stem and put another cutting of a different kind into that stem, bind it, and it grows from there. Nothings 'disappearing'.

The wild olive is grafted into the good olive. And then The good (natural) olive branches that were broken off are grafted back in.
 
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I dont know about the church disappearing. I dont really get that from Romans 11:25. It doesnt say anything about church disappearing. Just the fulness of the gentiles coming in.

Thats just some peoples interpretation but it doesnt actually say 'the church is going to disappear'. As for fullness of gentiles coming in, wouldnt that mean there will be more christians coming INTO Israel. Previous verses talk about grafting, if you know anything grafting its uniting two different kinds of trees into one tree. You cut into a stem and put another cutting of a different kind into that stem, bind it, and it grows from there. Nothings 'disappearing'.

The wild olive is grafted into the good olive. And then The good (natural) olive branches that were broken off are grafted back in.
I can appreciate your position. You are welcome to disagree with me as I am no prophet or authority. All I said was my thinking based on ALL the Scriptures.

One of the most important things to grasp in Bible study is that the Church has NOT replaced Israel.

As for "grafting", In Rom. 11:16-27, Paul used the Olive Tree to represent Jews and the Wild Olive Tree to represent Christians.

The root of the Olive Tree represents the beginning of the Olive Tree (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob). As the Olive Tree (Israel) grew, it put on branches (some lived; some died). Living branches represent later generations of believing (spiritually alive) Jews (such as King David, Isaiah, Daniel, Mary, Peter, James, John, etc.) that grew out of the root. Dead branches represent later generations of unbelieving (spiritually dead) Jews (such as Ahab, Caiaphas, some members of the Sanhedrin, etc.).

The Scriptures say to me that Israel who is the focus of the 7 year tribulation has today a hardened heart and is in complete disobedience. It seems to me that something has to happen to wake them up and that is what Romans 11:25 suggests to ME...…"A fullness of the times of the Gentiles".

Verse #25 then says that God doesn’t want ignorance in the Church that will cause members to fall into a trap of their own making. The blindness of Israel is temporary. It will end when the times of the Gentiles end which then must be that special event, what ever it is called that will allow Israel's eyes to be opened.

Remember that the 144,000 in the Revelation during the 7 year Tribulatiuon are ALL CONVERTED JEWISH MEN.
Also, the TWO witnesses who preach for 3 and 1/2 years will also probably be converted Jewish rabbis.
That right there should be telling us something.

It was to Israel that Jesus came to offer Himself as Messiah. Instead of accepting Him as their Messiah and King, they killed Him.
It was then that God turned to the GENTILES and offered Christ as the Saviour which ultimately lead to the Gentile church.

When or IF the Church is removed, it is then that God will turn His attention to Israel for the last 7 years just as He promised.

Consider Zecharuah 12:10...……..
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.”

Now add to that Isaiah 66:8...........
“Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment? For as soon as Zion was in labor she brought forth her children.”

Now for context lets read Matthew 23:39 where Jesus speaks to the hardened hearted nation of Israel..........
“I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'”

As I said already, I don't want to speculate about details we are not given. I am not sure about the precise "when and how" of Israel's conversion. But that it is coming and that it will be given by Jesus Christ, the deliverer who banishes ungodliness and forgives sins is a sure thing.
 
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Well personally I dont believe the church is removed. It might be hidden or separated but not removed. The righteous are going to stand and the wicked will be removed, not the church. Thats what I read the scriptures as saying and I really dont know where people get the idea that the church is 'disappearing' they just seem to be inferring it from a lot of other unrelated scriptures and I suspect those scriptures are rather mixed up or out of context.

When Noah went into the ark he wasnt disappearing. It was actually the wicked removed from the face of the earth by the flood. So its people taken (wicked) and people left (righteous).

I just want to put that out there I wouldnt say this if I didnt read that in scripture, I dont like to speculate about endtimes just go by what the Bible says. Some people have wild imaginings about the endtimes that do more harm than good.

Another thing is the 144,00 are not just jewish men. They are from all the tirbes of israel, including judah. Judah is just one of the twelve tribes, actually that kingdom was made up of two tribes judah and benjamin when it split from israel.
Revelation names each tribe. So I am saying that ALL of israel will be saved, not just judah, though judah is the hold out it seems. Judah is the one that had the lion that slew the lamb of God.

Fullness of gentiles...we are grafted INTO israel. This means gentile believers arent being removed we are going to be part of this and included too. We are ALL going to witness this transformation, its not like God just forget us and plays favoruites He can do both at the same time. I get the feeling that people like to think well God is deliberately ignoring Israel and has to deal with the church and then 'turn his attention' to them once again as if Hes forgotten them or been distracted. But thats not true as God has not forgotten His covenant which is everlasting, even when his people broke their part of it. Its blindness on Israel's part, not Gods part.

Revelation also tells us we are going to be kings and priests reigning on the earth see 5:10, so...dont think anyones going to be removed...if anyone will be removed its the judgment upon the wicked to be destroyed/cast into the lake of fire, NOT the righteous.