I think it boils down to this - we don't really disagree with what has happened in our history - we are putting different values of importance on them - we need to separate out what was/is sinful and what was/is due to economics, social factors etc - example - river jordan said this -- "I'm looking back to an age where I couldn't vote, could be put into debtor's prison, couldn't marry outside my race, had to have 10 kids to get 4 to adulthood, etc. and thinking of them as "better times".--- these things have nothing to do with sin but I understand what he is saying - It's just that all that is important is if God judges our country growing in sin because a higher percentage of each generation has rejected him and embraces sin as being their "right of freedom". This is all that's important and what will/will not cause God to intervene not only in America but the world.
O’ America, What Has Happened To You?
- Thread starter MrGroceries
- Start date
I think it boils down to this - we don't really disagree with what has happened in our history - we are putting different values of importance on them - we need to separate out what was/is sinful and what was/is due to economics, social factors etc - example - river jordan said this -- "I'm looking back to an age where I couldn't vote, could be put into debtor's prison, couldn't marry outside my race, had to have 10 kids to get 4 to adulthood, etc. and thinking of them as "better times".--- these things have nothing to do with sin but I understand what he is saying - It's just that all that is important is if God judges our country growing in sin because a higher percentage of each generation has rejected him and embraces sin as being their "right of freedom". This is all that's important and what will/will not cause God to intervene not only in America but the world.
I think what they are speaking about isn't in regards to the persecutions or blatantly racist and sexist and homophobic policies. They may be talking about a decline of other aspects of the culture (a more welcoming sentiment toward hedonism for instance) or perhaps a disapproval of heavy bureaucracy. I'm not sure.
Though I don't think I would pin them as wanting to return to evil policies and events as you mentioned. Unless I am wrong and they'll correct me on that...though that would be strange--it would be like saying you like rotten eggs.
RiverJordan
Inactive
Maybe it's just me, but I think institutionalized slavery and discrimination, genocide, and geed are all matters of sin.
I can't imagine standing before God and actually saying, "Yeah, we enslaved Africans and killed Natives by the millions...but those aren't sin issues".
I can't imagine standing before God and actually saying, "Yeah, we enslaved Africans and killed Natives by the millions...but those aren't sin issues".
RiverJordan
Inactive
Maybe, but I have a hard time justifying in my head the idea that gays being allowed to marry or people being allowed to smoke weed is anywhere on the same scale as slavery and genocide. If asked to choose which society I'd prefer to live in, I'd pick the one with married gays over the one with slaves and genocide every time.
I agree that is sin - but again - it's not for us to judge the severity of America's sins - this one is more/less severe than that one - God has already done that and if He has had enough then He is going to put "His foot down" - and if not then God is giving us more time to straighten out this country - we need strong Christian leadership.Maybe it's just me, but I think institutionalized slavery and discrimination, genocide, and geed are all matters of sin.
I can't imagine standing before God and actually saying, "Yeah, we enslaved Africans and killed Natives by the millions...but those aren't sin issues".
RiverJordan
Inactive
But isn't that the whole point of the OP and this thread? That from a sin perspective, America has gotten worse?
I'll ask again....what do you think "strong Christian leadership" will do?
Glomung
Account Closed
Leaders can do nothing if the sheep don't follow.
From my point of view, the US is no more or less hedonistic and corrupt than it has been all along.
People are just much more open about it now.
There have always been perverts, but now they have parades.
In the past, people hid their vices better, now they go to therapy and brag about them.
The have always been corrupt bankers, but now they have the poor taste to end up in the news.
Our government has been murdering foreigners for 200 years, now it's in the news.
Adultery is hardly on the upswing, frankly I've never known a time when it wasn't almost every fashionable adults' favorite passtime.
From my point of view, the US is no more or less hedonistic and corrupt than it has been all along.
People are just much more open about it now.
There have always been perverts, but now they have parades.
In the past, people hid their vices better, now they go to therapy and brag about them.
The have always been corrupt bankers, but now they have the poor taste to end up in the news.
Our government has been murdering foreigners for 200 years, now it's in the news.
Adultery is hardly on the upswing, frankly I've never known a time when it wasn't almost every fashionable adults' favorite passtime.
Oh sorry I missed this question earlier - I am speaking of political leaders - the ones that can pass laws to undo the laws that God's enemies have passed and pass laws that follow the 10 commandments - we need also other leaders in the media and entertainment industry that recognize the importance of a God based culture and society. Christians need to rally around leaders so we can work together to claim our country again "one country under God".
RiverJordan
Inactive
Like what? I mean most of the 10 Commandments aren't exactly consistent with our form of government.
I'm still not sure what that means. Maybe you could give some specific examples of what you're thinking?
But if we returned to God as a nation then we would want our laws to reflect the 10 commandments - how about outlawing abortion, same sex marriage, pot smoking, pornography to start with
RiverJordan
Inactive
Wouldn't that require a major re-write of our form of government? The first Commandment is "You shall have no other Gods before Me". So would all non-Christian religions be outlawed?
Abortions in all cases, no matter what? And do we outlaw homosexuality altogether? And I don't remember anything in scripture about marijuana. As to porn I'd probably agree with you on that one, but I don't think it'd make much difference.
This would obviously have to take place over a extended period of time - but God would see us moving in the right direction and withhold His hand of chastisement --- non-Christian religions are welcome to live in love and peace with their Christian brothers and sisters and hopefully over several generations God will help us convert non-Christians ---- the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit - it's not to be defiled by drugs or alcohol etc. ---- I believe in God's eyes there should never be an abortion even when the mother and/or child life is in danger - pray, pray, pray for God's will to be done - no human should take what belongs to God and pass judgement on it - allow God will to take place under all circumstances. ---- being a homosexual is not a sin nor is being a drug addict or prostitute or being addicted to pornography but the practice, the doing, the act of is what is sinful. This is the same for all sins - a jealous person is going to feel that way under certain circumstances - but if they act in a sinful way then that is what's offensive to God. A sinful thought doesn't become a sin until you act on it or commit the sin in your heart. A lustful thought is harmless as long as you put it out of you mind immediately - but if you entertain it in your heart it becomes a sin and worse yet if you act on it. You can't "outlaw" sin by passing laws but you can show God by your laws that you support fully the 10 commandments.
RiverJordan
Inactive
MrGroceries,
It's not that I disagree with your views on some of those subjects, it's that in order to make those things into law and shape our government around the approach you advocate would mean us getting rid of the Constitution and our form of government and becoming a theocracy. That's what I disagree with.
I also disagree with the notion of a "mafia boss" type of God, where if we don't do exactly what He wants...."It'd be a shame if something were to happen to your country".
It's not that I disagree with your views on some of those subjects, it's that in order to make those things into law and shape our government around the approach you advocate would mean us getting rid of the Constitution and our form of government and becoming a theocracy. That's what I disagree with.
I also disagree with the notion of a "mafia boss" type of God, where if we don't do exactly what He wants...."It'd be a shame if something were to happen to your country".
God wants every human being united to His Divine Will - if that called a theocracy than so be it. - do you think God wants otherwise? We don't need to take over and force it on people - it will evolve slowly as long as the forces of God's Truth and Divine Love are dominate in the society. I believe God would call it the "New Jerusalem". We have free will - God does not interfere with it - it's our choice - He is not a "mafia boss" - He does not and will not force us to do anything we don't want to - we would have to do it for love of God and our brothers and sisters.
I'll help...there are always evils and wrongs in the world since very soon after the fall...at times there is more good at times more evil and so it shall be until the parousia (His coming)...
that's all that God asks of us - to do our part - we can do no more - the fruit is proportional to the union between the Creator and His created creature to His Divine Will.
Well it was similar in ancient Israel wasn't it...read Deuteronomy 28...but then again their covenant was for the land! Besides I think over time He had a lot to do with the rise and fall of nations but that does not make Him like a Mafia Boss it makes Him God...
RiverJordan
Inactive
It is a theocracy. The problem is, which version of Christianity? Yours? Mine? Southern Baptists? Pentecostals? See the problem?
And it sounds to me like your answer to the question in the OP (America, what happened to you) is "You were set up wrong by the founding fathers".
The mafia doesn't force you to do what they want either. It's just that if you don't do what they want, bad things happen, which is exactly what you described with God.
RiverJordan
Inactive
But there, God is specifically talking to his chosen people, the Jews.
Over time God will unite the different Christian faiths into one - God knows what He is doing - perfectly -- there is no human problem that God can't easily solve - we just need to be obedient to the Divine Will and TRUST HIM