O’ America, What Has Happened To You?

RiverJordan said:
So is everything going according to God's plan? If it is, why lament the way things are going?
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of course not - 99% of humanity does their own will - they don't care about what God wants them to do - our own individual wills have brought humanity into the mess they find themselves in - that's why there is so much division and self interest. Lobbies in congress for so many different agendas - countries can't agree on much of anything - gridlock - important decisions are not made and the can is kicked down the road - the monetary problem in Europe and America.
 
Right, which is why IMO we shouldn't be legislating religion or basing our government on what one group of people believe "God's will" is. I strongly disagree with passing laws that say "You can't have any other Gods but the Christian God". That sort of thing never works out.

I think our founding fathers were pretty smart to make sure government didn't get entangled with religion.
 
MrGroceries said:
And if another person responded they will say something different - we all have our "take" on history based on our knowledge, bias, etc. - what I wrote is just my "take" on it - I believe what I said and I will let it stand as is - Why don't you post your "take" on it and see what comments you get? - because there are going to be people with a different "take" of American history than the one you have - you know we all have our opinions - this is just mine and I'm sure it's flawed
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That seems like a really humble attitude to me; I heard a sermon a little while ago where the speaker taught that "we have to lose our addiction to being right." That's been helpful for me to keep in mind (especially in online forums!)

I'm not an American, so I have a totally different "take" on a few things here...

First of all, the "prophet of doom" is a unique American cultural phenomenon. For some reason, America seems to need its prophets of doom, as much as it also needs people decrying those prophets. My saying that isn't any kind of judgment; it's one of the things I really like about American culture. Bob Dylan (Hard Rain!) is still my favorite musician of all time. Dylan said, "I like America, just as everybody else does. I love America, I gotta say that. But America will be judged." It is really interesting to think about why this cultural phenomenon is so prevalent in American culture, across all generations in US post-colonial history, and not so much in other nations. It's been on my mind lately because I recently read a book about it, The Shape of Things to Come: Prophecy and the American Voice by Greil Marcus.

Since I've never lived in a country that was founded on "Christian principles," the teachings in the NT about attitudes toward culture and government are something I can more easily relate to. The NT church wasn't in a position where they really had to think about making or enforcing more ethical laws. They never talked about trying to avoid God's judgement on their countries by getting a Christian leader in office that would pass Christian laws. From our position in history, we can look back and see, yes, Rome absolutely did fall, and we can probably even say that yes, it was judged. It just didn't seem, though, like the NT church felt any particular responsibility to keep it from falling. Instead, NT writers say some pretty challenging things about being subject to human institutions and rulers, which at that time were overtly pagan. Living in a pagan nation, that's the type of teaching that's easier for me to relate to.

But, patriotic nationalism is a more modern invention, and for people who both love God and love their country, it's not like I can't understand why they'd be grieved to witness a general decrease in morality, so no judgement. Interesting thread to watch!
 
RiverJordan said:
Maybe it's just me, but I think institutionalized slavery and discrimination, genocide, and geed are all matters of sin.

I can't imagine standing before God and actually saying, "Yeah, we enslaved Africans and killed Natives by the millions...but those aren't sin issues". :confused:
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That would be insanity.
 
RiverJordan said:
Maybe, but I have a hard time justifying in my head the idea that gays being allowed to marry or people being allowed to smoke weed is anywhere on the same scale as slavery and genocide. If asked to choose which society I'd prefer to live in, I'd pick the one with married gays over the one with slaves and genocide every time.
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I would as well. Though I don't know who would compare these two very different things.
 
Saw this today, and I think it illustrates my "mafia God" comment...

"I am a conservative Republican and I believe in God first," Atanus said. She said she believes God controls the weather and has put tornadoes and diseases such as autism and dementia on earth as in response to gay rights and legalized abortions.

"God is angry. We are provoking him with abortions and same-sex marriage and civil unions," she said.
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:confused:
 
I think it's nuts. If tornadoes and autism are acts of God in response to gay marriage, then God has really bad aim. It'd be compelling if every time a state or locality passed a gay marriage law, they experienced an immediate rash of tornadoes, or if every gay married couple suddenly came down with autism. But things don't work that way at all.

I think she's just projecting her own personal vindictiveness onto God.
 
RiverJordan said:
I think it's nuts. If tornadoes and autism are acts of God in response to gay marriage, then God has really bad aim. It'd be compelling if every time a state or locality passed a gay marriage law, they experienced an immediate rash of tornadoes, or if every gay married couple suddenly came down with autism. But things don't work that way at all.

I think she's just projecting her own personal vindictiveness onto God.
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I think it was a scumbag statement on her part. It reminded me of the remarks made from the Westboro Baptist Church.
 
RiverJordan said:
I agree, but do you think she could cite the scriptures others have cited in this thread to back up her views?
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I have no doubt she could cite multiple scriptures to back up her claim. However, she's making a statement of fact rather than theory, and she would be taking her own interpretation of scripture in order to push an agenda.

Anyone can use scripture to back up any agenda they wish, even the worst conceivable things. However, that doesn't mean their scriptural backing is legitimate. This is why I believe in scriptural order.
 
I just read this thread (I usually avoid politically motivated ones) ..
I read the discourse between MrGroceries and River Jordan ..

I agree with both of them ..
I think sin has actually increased ..
yet I do lend towards River Jordan's method ..

to pass strict laws under God, does not ultimately promote God ..
the simplest analogy I can point to, is replacing the Law of Moses with the Law of Christ .. the law of Moses was designed to legislate a persons heart .. which is flawed .. and though God did establish it, it was designed to be replaced with a Covenant that legislates a heart through freedom .. so if improvement for the people is the goal, then God is showing us the way .. that freedom comes through what is written in our hearts (as Paul says the works of the Law) meaning we naturally do what is right .. ALL systems will fail eventually .. but not all hearts will .. hearts that are freely given a choice to love and obey God, will ultimately be the hearts that are most pure ..
 
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