One Shall Be Taken, And The Other Left

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Feb 24, 2013
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Indeed they do but you are not understanding them I think.
My friend......that clearly says that there will be people who heard and rejected and by that action will be damed.
IMO , anyone who rejects the gospel today can not be saved after the Rapture.
Major, the words you quote are only in regard to those who "received not the love of the truth" by the time when there will be signs and wonders:

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thess.2:9-12).

It is only those who believe not at the time when mankind will be deceived by the signs and lying wonders who are in view:

"And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live...And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Rev.13:14).

We can see that there will be believers at this time because there will be some who do not receive the mark:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev.13:16-17).

Therefore, there will be plenty of time for people to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved before the signs and lying wonders will deceive mankind.
 
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Yes sir my friend. It has been discussed up one side and down the other.
Despite that, I would like to hear what anyone might say about what I say in regard to this passage:

"But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be...Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:37,40-41).

The Lord Jesus' words there were in answer to His disciple's following question:

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).

Earlier the Lord Jesus explained the meaning of the parable of the "tares of the field" where He described what would occur at the "end of the age":

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).

Here we can see that the Lord Jesus says that it will be the ones who offend and do iniquity who will be gathered out or taken. Therefore, the ones who will be "taken" are the unrighteous and the ones who will be left are the ones who will shine for in the kingdom of their father.

That is the opposite of what will happen at the rapture.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Despite that, I would like to hear what anyone might say about what I say in regard to this passage:

"But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be...Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:37,40-41).

The Lord Jesus' words there were in answer to His disciple's following question:

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).

Earlier the Lord Jesus explained the meaning of the parable of the "tares of the field" where He described what would occur at the "end of the age":

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).

Here we can see that the Lord Jesus says that it will be the ones who offend and do iniquity who will be gathered out or taken. Therefore, the ones who will be "taken" are the unrighteous and the ones who will be left are the ones who will shine for in the kingdom of their father.

That is the opposite of what will happen at the rapture.
Jerry, me thinks you have missed the truth of Matthew 24:34-40.

Those verses are NOT about the Rapture!!!! They refer to the revelation of Christ. There are "signs" that are obviouse during the 7 year Tribulation before Christ is revealed "but there are NO signs that precede the Rapture".

Same also with 13:34-43.

The point is that the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest with no attempt to seperate them. Same is the case with believers and make-believers. The true church made up of real believers will be Raptured our of the world after which God will deal with wickedness in the final judgment.

13:40 tells us that the angels will be told to harvest the "tares" (lost) and bind them into bundels to burn. But the wheat (saved) will be gathered "into my barn". The lost are burned and the saved go home to God.

Psalms 91:8......
"Behold and see the reward of the wicked".
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Major, the words you quote are only in regard to those who "received not the love of the truth" by the time when there will be signs and wonders:

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thess.2:9-12).

It is only those who believe not at the time when mankind will be deceived by the signs and lying wonders who are in view:

"And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live...And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Rev.13:14).

We can see that there will be believers at this time because there will be some who do not receive the mark:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev.13:16-17).

Therefore, there will be plenty of time for people to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved before the signs and lying wonders will deceive mankind.
Yes......there will be a revival during the Tribulation, that is very clear in the Scripture. But it is just as clear that IF you have heard the gospel today, and the Rapture takes place tomarrow, you will not be saved.

You will have heard the truth and rejected the truth and according to the Scriptures..."ALL will be damed".
ALL are those who heard and rejected. Those are the ones not included in the Rapture.

Jerry, it has to be that way. Again, just think for a moment. You witness to a man, explain to him the gospel, and explain to him that there is an event coming called the Rapture and it is for believers..........he says to you...............
"I will think about it and call you tomarrow".

Tonight the Rapture takes place and when he calls you tomarrow, you are not there. He thinks about what you told him and he understands he was not taken by God. NOW he decides to be saved.

Is he coming to Christ for the forgivness of his sins, OR is he coming to Christ because he missed the Rapture????

What does one have to do to be saved? Believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, NOT the Rapture.
 
Feb 24, 2013
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Jerry, me thinks you have missed the truth of Matthew 24:34-40.
Those verses are NOT about the Rapture!!!!
Major, please read what I said again because I said that those verses are not about the rapture but instead speak of things which are "opposite of what will happen at the rapture."
Yes......there will be a revival during the Tribulation, that is very clear in the Scripture. But it is just as clear that IF you have heard the gospel today, and the Rapture takes place tomarrow, you will not be saved.
I never said otherwise. That is not the subject of which we were in disagreement but instead what you said here:
IMO , anyone who rejects the gospel today can not be saved after the Rapture.
But now you acknowledge that there will be a revival during the tribulation:
Yes......there will be a revival during the Tribulation, that is very clear in the Scripture.
So cannot those who reject the gospel before the rapture come to faith after the rapture at the Great Tribulation?
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Major, please read what I said again because I said that those verses are not about the rapture but instead speak of things which are "opposite of what will happen at the rapture."

I never said otherwise. That is not the subject of which we were in disagreement but instead what you said here:

But now you acknowledge that there will be a revival during the tribulation:

So cannot those who reject the gospel before the rapture come to faith after the rapture at the Great Tribulation?
There will be a revival Jerry, but not for those who have heard and rejected the gospel IMO, that is what 2 Thess. 2:8-12 is saying.

The revival will be from those who have never been exposed to the gospel.
 
Feb 24, 2013
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There will be a revival Jerry, but not for those who have heard and rejected the gospel IMO, that is what 2 Thess. 2:8-12 is saying.

The revival will be from those who have never been exposed to the gospel.
I pointed out to you that the passage at 2 Thess:8-12 can only be understood when you examine the time period in view. I have explained that and you did not even attempt to prove anything which I said is in error. Please let me try to explain it to you again:

The "time period" under consideration at 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 is only from the time beginning with the "signs and lying wonder":

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thess.2:9-12).

That gives those who rejected the gospel ample time to believe and be saved. So there is nothing that forbids the idea that those who rejected the gospel prior to the rapture can come to the knowledge of the truth afterwards.
You want to take a passage that is clearly set at a time years after the rapture and apply it to the time immediately after the rapture.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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I pointed out to you that the passage at 2 Thess:8-12 can only be understood when you examine the time period in view. I have explained that and you did not even attempt to prove anything which I said is in error. Please let me try to explain it to you again:

The "time period" under consideration at 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 is only from the time beginning with the "signs and lying wonder":

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thess.2:9-12).

That gives those who rejected the gospel ample time to believe and be saved. So there is nothing that forbids the idea that those who rejected the gospel prior to the rapture can come to the knowledge of the truth afterwards.
You want to take a passage that is clearly set at a time years after the rapture and apply it to the time immediately after the rapture.
Jerry........the Scriptures in 2 Thess. do not set a time years after the Rapture. It just is not there my brother.

IMO understanding the Rapture will take place and "immediatly" after that will begin the Tribulation period.

Notice Jerry the last part of 2. Thess:2"10.......
"because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved".

Paul must therefore be speaking to the people who were exposed to the truth, the Word of God.

John 17:17
"Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free".

John 14:6..
"I am the way, the TRUTH and the life".

The people in view in verse 10 therefore can not be heathen who never heard of Jesus or the Word of God or the Gospel of Christ. These people will have been exposed to the truth and when the truth is rejected, the light that could have come into their hearts and life becomes darkness because they rejected the light.

The more Gospel an unbeliever hears and rejects the harder his heart becomes my friend.

The peopl then of whom Paul is talking about are those who will be left behind when the Church is caught up. They will be religiouse for sure. They will be lukwarm, rich with things and needing nothing. That IMO is the age we are living in now.

Again notice the end of verse #10........
"that they might be saved".

IMO that is more proof that Paul is speaking of those people who have heard and rejected the gospel. They could have been saved.

What then will be the result of their rejection??????

Verse #11.......(Notice that there is no time elelment involved.)
"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie".

After the Rapture IMO these people will no longer be able to receive the truth. Their minds and hearts will be blacked, deadened and they will be in the place Ephraim reached when God said.........

"Ephrahim is joined to idols....LET HIM ALONE".


Verse #12 then puts seal on this....
"Thay they ALL might be damed who believed not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness".

"They" are the people who have been in focus so as to stay in context. "They" can only be those who have heard and rejected the gosple, the Rapture will take place, the A/C will be revealed and the Tribulation will begin and run for the next 7 years.
 
Feb 24, 2013
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Jerry........the Scriptures in 2 Thess. do not set a time years after the Rapture. It just is not there my brother.
Major, there will be plenty of time between the rapture and the time when the prophecies of 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 are fulfilled.

The verses at 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 are not referring to the things which will happen during the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24:21 because that tribulation is strictly limited to Israel (the time of Jacob's trouble). The events described at 2 Thessalonians 2:9 are events which will include the whole earth (Lk.21:35).

So there will be at least seven years from the time of the rapture until the events of 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 come to pass. In fact, the time period between those events could be much greater than seven years.

After the Rapture IMO these people will no longer be able to receive the truth.
You fail to distinguish between the events of the rapture (which is only in regard to Israel) and the events which are worldwide and are described here:

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations...And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live" (Rev.13:7,14).

So there will be plenty of time for those who rejected the gospel before the rapture to come to the knowledge of truth AFTER the rapture.
 
Jul 22, 2010
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"But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be...Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:37,40-41).
So what is so Einstienish about understanding that when one is taken, it is to be with the Lord, and those left are to immediately face the wrath of the Lamb. Read the account in Genesis about the days of Noah. What happened?
The Noah gang were taken and those left behind immediately faced the wrath of God....no?
Read Gen 7:11,12,13,14,15,16.
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights. 13 On the very same day Noah and Noah's sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and Noah's wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark - 14 they and every beast after its kind, all cattle after their kind, every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort. 15 And they went into the ark to Noah, two by two, of all flesh in which is the breath of life. 16 So those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him; and the LORD shut him in.


So, when we read "On the very same day.." it means on the very same day. That would be the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month....yes?


Since Jesus used this historic event to illustrate the future culmination of the age, He was talking about separation of the Noah types and the rest of humanity, on the same day. The Lord's people will be taken, the others will be left to immediately face the flood of bad things....condemnation.
But is this global condemnation the same as tribulation? No. So why would anyone want to blend the two?
 
Feb 24, 2013
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So what is so Einstienish about understanding that when one is taken, it is to be with the Lord, and those left are to immediately face the wrath of the Lamb.
calvin, what will be Einstienish is to reconcile the following facts with your idea:

The Lord Jesus' words in regard to one shall be taken and the other left were in answer to His disciple's following question:

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt 24:3).

Earlier the Lord Jesus explained the meaning of the parable of the "tares of the field" where He described what would occur at the "end of the age":

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt 13:37-43).

Here we can see that the Lord Jesus says that it will be the ones who offend and do iniquity who will be gathered out or taken. Therefore, the ones who will be "taken" are the unrighteous and the ones who will be left are the ones who will shine forth in the kingdom of their father.

That is the opposite of what will happen at the rapture. At the rapture the ones who will be taken are the righteous and the ones which will be left are the unrighteous. Therefore the Lord Jesus' words at Matthew 24:39-41 cannot be describing the rapture and those words completely eliminate the possibility that there will be a post-trib rapture.
 
Jul 22, 2010
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calvin, what will be Einstienish is to reconcile the following facts with your idea:

Snip
You err greatly. It is not my idea.
I pointed out what the word of God says. If you have a problem with what the word of God says........take it up with Him.
Did I say that there either would or would not be a post trib rapture?
Did I say that there either would or would not be a pre trib rapture?
Did I falsely accuse the Lord of saying either of those things?
Did I point out that after the Noah gang was removed from harms way the rest of humanity faced tribulation,....No!
Did I point out that after the Noah gang was removed from harms way the rest of humanity faced the wrath of God...they faced condemnation......Yes!
Is that post tribulation rapture?.......No!
Is that pre tribulation rapture?.....No!

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt 24:3).
I count three questions there. Would it be a sin for Jesus to supply three answers?.....No? then don't complain about it.
Matt 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of 8 heaven, but My Father only."
Thus begins Jesus' answer to the third question by the Disciples.....I suggest you treat it and receive it as such, and stop being contentious.
have a nice day.
 
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Jan 11, 2013
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I avoid these sorts of "debates" as they are not salvation-oriented in the now, cause strife and remind me of the "righteousness of the Pharisees"....or more pointedly:

 
Jan 11, 2013
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Any discussion that I see going around in circles and riddled with misunderstands I call "debate"....the brackets being tongue in cheek.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Major, there will be plenty of time between the rapture and the time when the prophecies of 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 are fulfilled.

The verses at 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 are not referring to the things which will happen during the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24:21 because that tribulation is strictly limited to Israel (the time of Jacob's trouble). The events described at 2 Thessalonians 2:9 are events which will include the whole earth (Lk.21:35).

So there will be at least seven years from the time of the rapture until the events of 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 come to pass. In fact, the time period between those events could be much greater than seven years.



You fail to distinguish between the events of the rapture (which is only in regard to Israel) and the events which are worldwide and are described here:

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations...And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live" (Rev.13:7,14).

So there will be plenty of time for those who rejected the gospel before the rapture to come to the knowledge of truth AFTER the rapture.
We will have to stand in disagreement then Jerry. In my understanding of the Scriptures, those exposed to the gospel and then rejected that gospel will not be able to be saved. THEY will be damned and accept the mark of the beast.

And as for there being "plenty" of time between the Rapture and 2 Thess. any time placed there would have to forced by what we want the Scriptures to say because there is no specified time.

Calvin stated and I agree completly................Please understand calvin's explaination in comment #31...............
"On the very same day.." it means on the very same day. That would be the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month....yes?
Since Jesus used this historic event to illustrate the future culmination of the age, He was talking about separation of the Noah types and the rest of humanity, on the same day. The Lord's people will be taken, the others will be left to immediately face the flood of bad things....condemnation."
 
Feb 24, 2013
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You err greatly. It is not my idea.
Did I say that there either would or would not be a pre trib rapture?
You placed the rapture after the great tribulation when you said:
So what is so Einstienish about understanding that when one is taken, it is to be with the Lord, and those left are to immediately face the wrath of the Lamb.
Your reference to one being taken is in regard to the passage at Matthew 24:39-41.

The reference to the "great tribulation" occurs much earlier, at Matthew 24:21.

So you do in fact place the rapture as coming after the great tribulation.
 
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And as for there being "plenty" of time between the Rapture and 2 Thess. any time placed there would have to forced by what we want the Scriptures to say because there is no specified time.
Major, let us look at the timeline from a pre-trib rapture onward. First you admit that there will be seven years from the rapture until the end of the great tribulation:
When does Trib. end.....................7 years after the Rapture (Rev 19)
As I said, that tribulation is only in regard to Israel. Then after the signs in the sky are seen men will be in fear of the things which will be coming on the earth (Lk.21:25-26). It will not be until this when the following events occur:

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations...And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live" (Rev.13:7,14).

So there will be plenty of time between the rapture and the events of Revelation 13:14 for those who missed the rapture to come to the truth. You also said:
"On the very same day.." it means on the very same day. That would be the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month....yes?
Since Jesus used this historic event to illustrate the future culmination of the age, He was talking about separation of the Noah types and the rest of humanity, on the same day. The Lord's people will be taken, the others will be left to immediately face the flood of bad things....condemnation."
So now you are saying that the rapture will be post-trib even though you said this earlier?:
IMO, a mid or post Rapture makes no sense at all to me and does not conform to the Bibles record.
You leave me puzzled, Major.
 
Aug 18, 2012
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Lol Major. You mocked my warning and yet even you, a stout and devout pre-tribber, are getting sucked into the spiraling whirlpool of everything Jerry.......how ironic. Are you dizzy yet?
 
Feb 24, 2013
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Lol Major. You mocked my warning and yet even you, a stout and devout pre-tribber, are getting sucked into the spiraling whirlpool of everything Jerry.......how ironic. Are you dizzy yet?
Why don't you step up to the plate and actually address the subject of this thread?

You remind me of those who I see so often on the various Christian forums. When they cannot answer the message they attack the messenger.
 
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