OT law & New Testament giving

[Fish Catcher Jim]

OKAY...I was expecting a lot of flack because I know it is or can be a sensitive issue, and I know that I am going up against a few published commentators

I've often wrestled with this issue. My current understanding is that there is really no division. All the 613 laws come down in the long run to the ten commandments, which in turn come down to the first.
Hypothetical: I love the Lord my God....hmmm nobody will miss this ipad that is lying in the unlocked store showcase, besides I could use the money I'd save to watch a few adult movies.
Quite a few wrongs in that hypothetical, none of which support my claim to love God.
I think the amplification of the Ten Commandments are/were to act as a guide for a more comprehensive understanding and application.
For example,
General Commandment
Commandment #7 and #10 Deu 5:21 "'And you shall not covet your neighbor's wife. And you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his male servant, or his female servant, his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.'
Amplified application in part:
Deu 22:22 "If a man is found lying with the wife of another man, both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman. So you shall purge the evil from Israel.
I may be wrong, but I think the idea that not one jot nor tittle means not the least eensy weensy item of the Law is to be done away with till all be completed. That would logically include the 613 (explanatory) laws.
I am aware that some would therefore argue that the Sabbath must be kept, however that is not a sound Exegesis in light of much other Scripture.

Hello Brother Calvin,
I would truly like to continue in this with you but until you can actually make a valid point using all scriptures pertaining unto your claim and scriptural interpretations, it is difficult to say the least.

Here is what I am talking about.....
When you use Matthew 5:17-18 why do you leave out 19-48 which is Jesus explaining what He is talking about ?

What is your point with Acts 28:23 ? How does this fit your claim ?

Perhaps you have missed the big point in this.
1. If the word of God says the old law is done away with then it is done away with. None of us have any right to go to questioning what is written in Gods word. I did not say asking questions about His word...Questioning what it says is doubting it or saying it is not correct and who ever is questioning the word of God like this is saying they know something different....

2. The laws of G0D are through out the written word of God and includes both the old testament and the new testament. Such as walking in Forgiveness and walking in Love are spiritual laws or commands from God or Laws of God or GODS LAWS. The tithe is still in effect and so forth.

3. The Law is done away with.....No use for it because Jesus went to the cross to replace the old laws which were not working. Meaning the laws were not getting man justified in the eyes of God. It still can not.

Jesus through His blood made or put into effect a new and better covenant between God and man. The laws of God are still in use brother but those old laws and interpretations of the old laws are dead and no more. This is where including 19-48 of your claim from Matthew 5:17-18 would help you to see this. Jesus compares what WAS WRITTEN unto WHAT IS TO BE NOW.
There is a huge difference here.

4. With your Hypothetical theories above that you used I must ask what is your point with these ? You go from scripture to rambling to scripture trying to connect the dots. How does this work ?
Such as Love thy God with all your heart and being is the greatest commandment and with it goes......love your neighbor as you love your self.

You were using some of this as reference for your claim but in all truth it was just saying this person broke one of the 10 commandments....Thus shall not steal. How does this incline that the old done away with law is still in effect?

All this old law could ever do and would ever do is show people how bad they were and how cursed they were. That is why it is GONE for GOOD !
Now then Brother if you can show me your claim with all scriptures pertaining unto your claim and leave out the stuff that does not help, this could be an interesting subject.

Thank You for sharing with me.
Love and Blessings in Christ
Jim

 

[calvin]

Hello Brother Calvin,
I would truly like to continue in this with you but until you can actually make a valid point using all scriptures pertaining unto your claim and scriptural interpretations, it is difficult to say the least.

Actually I did. It seems to me from reading your post that you are not understanding the issue well. I will reply in more detail...it will take time, but unless you can see the subject with clarity, I greatly fear I will be wasting my time, but no, there are others who will read. I am not trying to be nasty here, but comments from you such as :

Perhaps you have missed the big point in this.
1. If the word of God says the old law is done away with then it is done away with. None of us have any right to go to questioning what is written in Gods word. I did not say asking questions about His word...Questioning what it says is doubting it or saying it is not correct and who ever is questioning the word of God like this is saying they know something different....

Do present certain difficulties.
Perhaps I have not missed the big point either. Perhaps you have missed entirely the point I was making in my original post.
Are you not questioning?
"1. If the word of God says the old law is done away with then it is done away with." You want me to supply scripture, yet where is yours?
If you would truly like to continue, then it might be helpful if you adopt a more conciliatory attitude.
Nobody as far as I have read is questioning God's word, but there is ample room for doubting some people's understanding..........can you not see this?
Can you not differentiate between the two?
Suggesting people are questioning God's word is different from naming them as the serpent of Eden exactly how?
"Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God actually say, 'You shall not eat of any tree in the garden'?" Gen 3:1
And the rest is history.
That is questioning what God said.
Have a care about slandering people here.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Actually I did. It seems to me from reading your post that you are not understanding the issue well. I will reply in more detail...it will take time, but unless you can see the subject with clarity, I greatly fear I will be wasting my time, but no, there are others who will read. I am not trying to be nasty here, but comments from you such as :

Do present certain difficulties.
Perhaps I have not missed the big point either. Perhaps you have missed entirely the point I was making in my original post.
Are you not questioning?
"1. If the word of God says the old law is done away with then it is done away with." You want me to supply scripture, yet where is yours?
If you would truly like to continue, then it might be helpful if you adopt a more conciliatory attitude.
Nobody as far as I have read is questioning God's word, but there is ample room for doubting some people's understanding..........can you not see this?
Can you not differentiate between the two?
Suggesting people are questioning God's word is different from naming them as the serpent of Eden exactly how?
"Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God actually say, 'You shall not eat of any tree in the garden'?" Gen 3:1
And the rest is history.
That is questioning what God said.
Have a care about slandering people here.

Calvin it is so nice to see you !!
You are just upset and twisting what i said to redirect things. Thats fine brother but I ran this past a few people and no one saw any thing mean in this so thank you for your opinion.
You stick with how you see it Brother and we shall call it good. There is nothing more that either of us needs to say dealing with this conversation between us.

So again Calvin you have thee most wonderful night and enjoy the fellowship......
Blessings and I love you brother !!!
Jim

 

[Waggles]

First of all, Pastors and Preachers are anointed servant of God.

No. Not all.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

No. Not all.

Care to explain Brother and also why i said it in the first place ? ; ) Sorry it got away before I was done.....
Blessings

 

[calvin]

Calvin it is so nice to see you !!
You are just upset and twisting what i said to redirect things. Thats fine brother but I ran this past a few people and no one saw any thing mean in this so thank you for your opinion.
You stick with how you see it Brother and we shall call it good. There is nothing more that either of us needs to say dealing with this conversation between us.

So again Calvin you have thee most wonderful night and enjoy the fellowship......
Blessings and I love you brother !!!
Jim

OKAY

 

[calvin]

He revered it, loved it, obeyed it, and brought it to fruition. He fulfilled the law’s prophetic utterances regarding Himself seen in Luke 24:44 which is what I think you were saying.

Exactly.

 

[Waggles]

A prophecy concerning Jesus; and of the Spirit-filled saint:
Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. Psalm 40: 7-8
More prophecy concerning genuine Spirit-filled Christians:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts,
and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD:
for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jeremiah 31: 33-34

Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink,
but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 2Corinthians 3: 2-3
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit:
for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 2Corinthians 3: 6

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;
I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God,
and they shall be to me a people: Hebrews 8: 10

Israel = 10 lost tribes from the northern nation = Ephraim = 10 primary nations of Europe = New Covenant referred to above...
Judah = Jews = Old Covenant
Ezekiel 37 - Valley of Dry Bones = prophecy of restoration of Old and New - of Ephraim and Judah - one nation again
Jesus will unite both Jews and Christians together again when he returns to establish his government upon the Earth.

 

[Great Fiction]

Over the years, I have been a member or regular attainder of many churches and congregations. Without exception they have preach Christ, and Him raised. We are saved by His grace and our sins forgiven and ourselves justified by the blood of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Although it is sometimes less to the front of teaching, but usually a significant part of the teaching is that we are freed from the Old Testament Law. The Law is holy, but we are unable to live up to it. Its purpose, in part, was and is to emphasize in our experience that we cannot achieve righteousness by following a set of rules, however holy those rules may be. Christ’s sacrifice is the fulfillment of the law and we thus are freed from jot and tittle judgment according to that law.

I would appreciate sometime hearing a series of sermons showing how the rule of love, both for God, and for our neighbor fulfills Old Testament Law. Examples could be given showing how breaking any of the Ten Commandments would require breaking either the commandment to love God or the commandment to love your neighbor. Further examples could be given for many other OT laws.

An inconsistency that I perceive with concept of Old Testament law being filled by Christ’s sacrifice and common church teaching is in the subject of tithes. I have heard a preacher one week preach Christ’s fulfillment of the Law, and the very next preach on the importance of tithing. Usually, the only New Testament text given specifically addressing the quantity of the offering is the story from of Ananias and Sapphira.

If you read ; it is clear that the issue wasn't the amount. Even if it where there is nothing hinting at 10%. It is clear that the contribution was voluntary, and the problem concerns their attempt to deceive The Lord. To be fair, one pastor at a church where I had membership also considered the 10% figure part of the Old Testament Law and that the Lord’s economy in today’s world is based upon giving as the Spirit leads.

From my viewpoint there are several problems with this. Besides being contrary to the idea of Christ as complete fulfillment of Old Testament requirements, it is spiritually counterproductive and financially unnecessary.

There are many struggling, even in the best economy at the best of times. I am quite sure that the enemy works in the minds of both spiritually weak brothers, and those that are close to giving their lives to Christ and wreak great mischief. For those that are saved, but have little, inability to contribute money can cause undeserved shame. There are many ways to give to God. I am quite convinced that He can do wonders with talents and time. If one has little monetary treasure, he is just as welcome.

For my part, God has blessed be greatly both spiritually and in worldly goods. Few but the most very poor b would call me financially rich, but I had a long unbroken and well paid career. My wife also worked at a well paying career with the exception of a few years when my sons were small. The economic downturn cut my career short in 2009, and another complication a few years later cut into my retirement savings, but I have lived within my meansm prepared for the future, and do not worry too much about the bills the mail may bring. A 10% standard for me has been and is now much too low. I believe in sacrificial giving, meaning that my gifts to the Lord’s work should large enough that I have to plan and prepare and forego or limit some of the extras.

I would like to see more emphasis on sacrificial giving and much less on extracting funds based on a numeric formula.

I have never spoken up much about this in Bible studies. I am sure that many who should be giving more would only hear that there is no hard rule. I am also cognizant that any man’s reason sounds good to himself, but my thoughts here have not had the benefit of anther brothers comment. I invite comment here.

Is it possible that "the Mosaic Contract" and the "precepts in the Mosaic Contract" are not the same thing?

Is it possible that the Mosaic Contract was offered, accepted and ratified “with the children of Israel.”

Is it possible that Christ "fulfilled the Mosaic contract" in order to establish a new one called "Salvation?"

The curtain was rent, the old faulty contract was finished, and the new superior contract was resurrected: for Christ is the new contract.

Hebrews 8
6. - But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7. - For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

 

[Roads]

I would like to see more emphasis on sacrificial giving and much less on extracting funds based on a numeric formula.

After I observed that the three OT tithes (and the offerings as well) were done out of the people's inheritance, and the tithes went to people who had no share in/access to that inheritance, I now think the closest NT reference to tithing is Matthew 10:8, Freely you have received; freely give. Because, what is our inheritance in Christ? And if we tithe from that inheritance, how can we calculate 10% of infinity?

So I look at it this way: sharing half your pizza with a homeless fella is tithing. Committing to making that same person part of your life and being a continuous reflection of Christ to him is tithing. Giving a cut of your pay to your local church to be used for mortgage/salaries/administration/new projector, etc is paying the temple tax. The latter isn't unnecessary for many churches, but it isn't tithing, because it isn't coming from our inheritance, and it probably (in most cases, let's be honest) isn't primarily directly going to those who don't have a share in that inheritance. This is my working theory about tithing, anyway, coming from an observation of how the inheritance of Canaan for Israel was a preview/shadow of the inheritance we can all share in with Christ.

 

[Roads]

The latter isn't unnecessary for many churches, but it isn't tithing...

I think people start panicking a bit when it's suggested that tithing is not giving a regular cut of your wages to your local church, because they start thinking, how will churches pay their bills, how can they pay a pastor's salary, etc. And that is a valid concern. I think it's reasonable that if a local church has decided that they need assets like full time staff and a building, vehicles, etc, they are responsible for the stewardship of those things. Often people will provide anecdotal evidence that God has supplied for them personally more now that they "tithe." I don't doubt that God will bless people for good stewardship of the responsibilities they've taken on, but I disagree that the best word for that is "tithing."

 

[Euphemia]

After I observed that the three OT tithes (and the offerings as well) were done out of the people's inheritance, and the tithes went to people who had no share in/access to that inheritance, I now think the closest NT reference to tithing is Matthew 10:8, Freely you have received; freely give. Because, what is our inheritance in Christ? And if we tithe from that inheritance, how can we calculate 10% of infinity?

So I look at it this way: sharing half your pizza with a homeless fella is tithing. Committing to making that same person part of your life and being a continuous reflection of Christ to him is tithing. Giving a cut of your pay to your local church to be used for mortgage/salaries/administration/new projector, etc is paying the temple tax. The latter isn't unnecessary for many churches, but it isn't tithing, because it isn't coming from our inheritance, and it probably (in most cases, let's be honest) isn't primarily directly going to those who don't have a share in that inheritance. This is my working theory about tithing, anyway, coming from an observation of how the inheritance of Canaan for Israel was a preview/shadow of the inheritance we can all share in with Christ.

Tithing means "tenth", so being generous with people is sharing and giving and constitutes alms-giving or offerings, or simply acts of service to God. It's really not a good idea to assign one's own personal meaning to what the tithe is.

 

[Roads]

Tithing means "tenth", so being generous with people is sharing and giving and constitutes alms-giving or offerings, or simply acts of service to God. It's really not a good idea to assign one's own personal meaning to what the tithe is.

Yes tithe means tenth. But it's not possible to tithe a tenth of our inheritance, which is infinite. In the OT, only the inheritance was tithed from, and only those who didn't share in the inheritance were tithed to. While they received a finite, perishable inheritance, we receive an infinite, everlasting one. The challenge of "10%" is the same challenge as the "70 times 7" forgiveness "rule," you can never give enough to match even a fraction of what we have freely received.

I agree that it isn't a good idea to assign one's own personal meaning to what tithing is. I think the church has largely done just that; defeating the intention of the three tithes and the offerings by replacing them with the intention of the temple tax.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I think people start panicking a bit when it's suggested that tithing is not giving a regular cut of your wages to your local church, because they start thinking, how will churches pay their bills, how can they pay a pastor's salary, etc. And that is a valid concern. I think it's reasonable that if a local church has decided that they need assets like full time staff and a building, vehicles, etc, they are responsible for the stewardship of those things. Often people will provide anecdotal evidence that God has supplied for them personally more now that they "tithe." I don't doubt that God will bless people for good stewardship of the responsibilities they've taken on, but I disagree that the best word for that is "tithing."

All I can say is this...........God teaches us through out His word about no one who is in the army pays their own way nor does a farmer not get his share of the harvest and so forth.
What is mind boggling is how some one could question what God says in His written word.
Perhaps it is that YOU have not ever gained any revelation knowledge on the tithe and what God says about it....That would explain your views...........

It is all His to begin with with...Brag or boast on how it is only you that is causing you to get a pay chack and so forth or you make the money and it is you that causes the money to come it.
See how long you keep that job or how well your money meets all your needs.....
The Tithe is His........No question.......The other 90 percent is still His as well if you are smart about it.....Know what I mean ??

Blessings

 

[Euphemia]

Yes tithe means tenth. But it's not possible to tithe a tenth of our inheritance, which is infinite. In the OT, only the inheritance was tithed from, and only those who didn't share in the inheritance were tithed to. While they received a finite, perishable inheritance, we receive an infinite, everlasting one. The challenge of "10%" is the name challenge as the "70 times 7" forgiveness "rule," you can never give enough to match even a fraction of what we have freely received.

I agree that it isn't a good idea to assign one's own personal meaning to what tithing is. I think the church has largely done just that; defeating the intention of the three tithes and the offerings by replacing them with the intention of the temple tax.

That is not right.

 

[Roads]

All I can say is this...........God teaches us through out His word about no one who is in the army pays their own way nor does a farmer not get his share of the harvest and so forth.
What is mind boggling is how some one could question what God says in His written word.

I don't disagree with that. I think that is part of our responsibility. I just don't think that's what tithing is.

Perhaps it is that YOU have not ever gained any revelation knowledge on the tithe and what God says about it....That would explain your views...........

I'm not here to be a preacher, but a partaker in the wisdom gained by my brothers and sisters here.

It is all His to begin with with...Brag or boast on how it is only you that is causing you to get a pay chack and so forth or you make the money and it is you that causes the money to come it.
See how long you keep that job or how well your money meets all your needs.....

!?
I think acknowledging that what we have comes from God is essential to being a disciple of Christ. Thinking of one's self as steward of God's property is a good perspective for a Christian.

The Tithe is His........No question.......The other 90 percent is still His as well if you are smart about it.....Know what I mean ??

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Roads]

That is not right.

I'd be happy to discuss if you can elaborate, based on the OT verses about tithing, where the tithes come from, and the intent/purpose of the three tithes.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I don't disagree with that. I think that is part of our responsibility. I just don't think that's what tithing is.



I'm not here to be a preacher, but a partaker in the wisdom gained by my brothers and sisters here.



!?
I think acknowledging that what we have comes from God is essential to being a disciple of Christ. Thinking of one's self as steward of God's property is a good perspective for a Christian.



I couldn't agree more.

don't disagree with that. I think that is part of our responsibility. I just don't think that's what tithing is.
So what do you think titheing is then ?

I'm not here to be a preacher, but a partaker in the wisdom gained by my brothers and sisters here.

Yes but revelation knowledge should be every ones goal when it comes to the written word of God.

 

[Roads]

So what do you think tithing is then?

I think tithing should be the same as it was in the OT: taken from the inheritance we received from God to meet the needs of those who don't have a share in/access to that inheritance.

Yes but revelation knowledge should be every ones goal when it comes to the written word of God.

Phil 3:12
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I think tithing should be the same as it was in the OT: taken from the inheritance we received from God to meet the needs of those who don't have a share in/access to that inheritance.



Phil 3:12
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

What is the inheritance that you are speaking of ? I mean I just want to be sure I am on the same page so I do not reply incorrectly !!