Pauls thorn. The facts

Dec 16, 2014
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Your so sure of yourself. The thing is you are very wrong.

I would forgive her and love her. That is a fact, yours is opinion and nothing more.
No I am so sure of scripture. You also are willfully ignorant. Its a choise thing and you made yours.
You waould say you love her sure you would. That is a love christ has. We can live like that but I know you dont through all you say. If you had that type of love it would come out in ALL areas of your life.
 
Jun 7, 2013
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No I am so sure of scripture. You also are willfully ignorant. Its a choise thing and you made yours.
You waould say you love her sure you would. That is a love christ has. We can live like that but I know you dont through all you say. If you had that type of love it would come out in ALL areas of your life.
First, you know nothing of me beyond what I type here on this forum. Second, I think now I know that all you're trying to do is get a rise out of me, because you keep attacking my character and the love that I have for my wife each and every day. Third, you should know that attacking my character means nothing to me as it is only words, false words, but words none-the-less. Fourth, I'm sure you already know this, but bearing false witness is a sin. So you may want to quit doing so.

Danistahohihv
 

Glomung

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No I am so sure of scripture. You also are willfully ignorant. Its a choise thing and you made yours.
You waould say you love her sure you would. That is a love christ has. We can live like that but I know you dont through all you say. If you had that type of love it would come out in ALL areas of your life.
There is a saying in India "empty vessels make the most noise".
You are VERY noisy.
 

By Faith

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I am blessed beyond my wildest dreams my brother.

I would love to speak to your comment but the truth is that it is just too rambling from one thing to another for me to do so.

The one thing that you did say I could comprehend was......"The whole issues boils down to............. Is it God's will to heal."
"The answer would be yes".

I am glad you are so enthusiastic about what you believe. I am sorry to have to disagree with you on this again.

IMO, the First, thing to understand is that God does not always respond to our desires, and he frequently allows circumstances we wish He would not. Theologically we call this sovereignty. Inherent in our faith is the scriptural truth that God is in control. This includes the events he directs and the circumstances he allows. He has the power and responsibility to exercise his right over creation according to his will.

Psalms 50:1.........
"The Mighty One, God the Lord, speaks and summons the earth
from the rising of the sun to its setting".

Psalms 115:3.......
"Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases."

Yet God repeatedly chooses to veil the ways in which he exercises those rights. Hence our requests will not always coincide with God's response. Peter understood this as it applied to suffering.

1 Peter 4:19 confirms that............
"So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good".

Then secondly, we must address the assumption that God’s goodness and love require Him to heal everyone.
Illness, suffering, and pain are the result of our living in a cursed world—cursed because of our sin.

Genesis 3:16-19......
"To the woman he said, I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you. And to Adam he said, Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you, You shall not eat of it, cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Romans 8:20-22 .............
"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now."

God’s goodness and love moved Him to provide a Savior to redeem us from the curse as seen in 1 John 4:9-10, but our ultimate redemption will not be realized until God has made a final end of sin in the world. Until that time, we are still subject to physical death and physical pain and suffering.

Now just THINK for a moment............If God’s love required Him to heal every disease and infirmity, then no one would ever die—because "love" would maintain everyone in perfect health. The biblical definition of love is "a sacrificial seeking what is best for the loved one." What is best for us is not always physical wholeness. Paul the apostle prayed to have his "thorn in the flesh" removed, but God said, "No," because He wanted Paul to understand he didn’t need to be physically whole to experience the sustaining grace of God. Through the experience, Paul grew in humility and in the understanding of God’s mercy and power.

2 Corth. 12:7-10............
"So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

God bless you as you think on these Scriptures.

Not trying to ramble. There would be pages per post if we both explained everything perfectly. So much so we might as well wait on each others book.

So, you agree it's God's will to heal. You get that from scriptures.

So then there would be just a few differences here. I have taught healing and faith for 17 years... Time goes quick.

So, the differences are:

I don't see suffering under sickness as anything Gospel related. In fact there is no scripture saying to suffer for the cross is sicknes.

We agree this earth is under the curse of the law. We have physical bodies. I don't think we need sickness to die though. God declared our years to 120 in Gen, some say 78 in psa, but more years than some sickness allows.

We don't agree about Paul. some translations are not that great. God does not give us great revelation, then bash us in the head for knowing things. I explained what happened to Paul in a very easy to understand and reasonable way on the first post.

A messenger of Satan. Someone who spreads messeages against what Paul was saying.

Now if Christ means Anointing and power, then Paul went in puffed up in knowledge without factoring in that power. Sufficient Grace from the Lord is more than enough to move mountians and heal any disease. If the explination is reasonable, it should be examined more.

Jesus redemened us from the curse of the Law. You mentioned some of that. That curse brought every sickness not written in the book. Disobeying God brings physical death. Paul even said some now have died for it (sleep) Paul sent Satan to destroy the flesh of the believer who was sleeping with His fathers wife.

Disobedience to the Word is what brought the sickness and punishment. Jesus bore that punishment, not only here, but in the later.

If it's not God will to always heal (Physically) but He heals some, then that is a form of Calvinism. Makes God a respecter of persons. The head of the Church never thought like this. Even the daughter of Abraham whom we are seed, Must be healed.

You see God as "Healing" physically somethimes. I see in scripture that we already have been blessed with all spiritual blessings (Where the healing comes from) and already have been given all things that would pertain to life, through the Knowledge of Jesus.

I see it already done, you see it as something God may do. I see Salvation already done, as you do.

So, I want to convince you It's Gods will to always "Physically" heal, just as much as it's His will all men be saved. I don't take a calvinsim approach where God picks and chooses everything without our input making faith of non effect. I know you don't either.

If everyone who got prayed for you saw from day one was healed, you would not taking sides here, but say it's God's will to always heal.

However, nobody got saved saying I Hope Jesus saved me, you just never know. I'll wait and see if I end up in Hell or not.

We walk by faith, right? Not by experiences, or what happened to others, for you and I know lots who are not saved, and it's not God's fault there either.

Be blessed Major. I hope not to long or confusing.
 

LanceA

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@The Word or nothing You and I believe a lot of the same things. I believe God has given us the power to do many things including healing. I don't believe Paul's thorn was an illness or wound, it was persecution. Yes Paul had a bad eye because he was almost killed and was pretty beaten up. The verses people use to say he had a bad eye happened right after he was left to die. One thing I believe in is if we are injured for following Christ then we should accept that injury. It is just like turning the other cheek; we aren't to just let people beat us down whenever they want to, but if it is for the name of Jesus then by all means give that person the other cheek. It is all about persecution and nothing more. I will give a testimony right now on a healing I received recently.

I have had a terrible pain with one of my back teeth so I went to see dentist and he said I had a cracked tooth and would need a crown and a root canal done. Well instead of going ahead with the $1000 plus procedure I prayed over my tooth and in the name of Jesus commanded it to be healed. It took 3 weeks to see a complete healing of the tooth but it happened. People kept on telling me to get the procedure done but I wouldn't give into doubt and kept up with my faith that Jesus already healed me. I can tell you today I am pain free and my tooth is completely healed. Now some will say God chose to heal me and that not everyone will receive a healing like that. I say God has already healed everyone and if we just walk in faith and believe it has already been accomplished then Christians would see more miracles in their lives.
 
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By Faith

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@The Word or nothing You and I believe a lot of the same things. I believe God has given us the power to do many things including healing. I don't believe Paul's thorn was an illness or wound, it was persecution. Yes Paul had a bad eye because he was almost killed and was pretty beaten up. The verses people use to say he had a bad eye happened right after he was left to die. One thing I believe in is if we are injured for following Christ then we should accept that injury. It is just like turning the other cheek; we aren't to just let people beat us down whenever they want to, but if it is for the name of Jesus then by all means give that person the other cheek. It is all about persecution and nothing more. I will give a testimony right now on a healing I received recently.

I have had a terrible pain with one of my back teeth so I went to see dentist and he said I had a cracked tooth and would need a crown and a root canal done. Well instead of going ahead with the $1000 plus procedure I prayed over my tooth and in the name of Jesus commanded it to be healed. It took 3 weeks to see a complete healing of the tooth but it happened. People kept on telling me to get the procedure done but I wouldn't give into doubt and kept up with my faith that Jesus already healed me. I can tell you today I am pain free and my tooth is completely healed. Now some will say God chose to heal me and that not everyone will receive a healing like that. I say God has already healed everyone and if we just walk in faith and believe it has already been accomplished then Christians would see more miracles in their lives.
Hey Lance, know we could have gotten to a better start, but that story about you tooth touched me. Thank you for sharing that. I can imagine what you went through believing what you prayed and having to deal with other people and pain. It's very easy to start believing symptoms when in pain, and not stay focused on the Word.

My wife had a simular condition where her apendix was going to burst. She needed emerency surgery. In the emergency room I asked if she had peace about the surgery and she said no, it just seemed off to her. It seemed off to me for some reason. (I am not against doctors, praise God for them)

I said, well.............. You can't give any more place to this, it's between you and God. I can't heal anyone, but the Lord can through the faith we speak.

She got mad finally and told the devil it's not going to be this way. Got up and walked out. That was 3 years ago, fine today, never another symptom.

Our stories are great, praise God. Faith in God never failed anyone, not one time.

We have to be led though and walk by faith. We can't follow someone elses example by what they did, but need our own revelation from the Lord and follow the Lord's direction. One reason I don't tell some of my stories, because God determines how the process is going to go, we don't. The end result is healed though.

One time I split my thumb open through the nail and to the bone. Bleeding everywhere. I wraped it up, said no you don't devil, I am healed!!!! In Jesus name. Praise God.

2 hours later it was still bleeding all over the place. Umm, worked before.

I said, "Lord, now what is up with this healing here."

Lord said, "You going to just let it bleed for several days believing me, or you going to just get it sowed up and be done with it?"

Ummm, yes sir, I am going now. I drove myself to the emergency room and had 8 stiches put in it. Healed fine.

Thank you for sharing that Lance. Patience standing on the Word tries ours trust in God.

God has never failed to heal anyone, not one time that trusted in him and believed. Not once.

Again, thank you for sharing that.
 
Nov 4, 2014
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I know a man who had a heart attack and died he was without a pulse for 20 minutes in 2005. His brother went to him from a neighboring state to unplug him from life support. When his brother got there he had started breathing on his own. The brother was told due to the brain damage that he would be under nursing care for the rest of his life. He could not sit up he was fed through a tube and peed in a bag and did not know who he was for months. He had to be taught to eat again, he would try to inhale his food. He went from being pushed in a wheel chair to operating it, then walker cane. He left the nursing home in the beginning of 2006. His memory was so that he would ask mid sentence "what are we talking about". In August of 2007 2 years to the month he did the first triathlon of his life and another in 2008 and 2009. He quit watching tv in 2006 and spent his time with the Lord he professes God everywhere he goes. The Lord gave him a ministry of poetry which he retains lots of it in his head. This guy never wrote poetry before. You were asking about miracles in this day and time....... this fellow is living proof God is still performing them.
Some think him being alive is the miracle but the real miracle is the man left and his heart for God


peter
Every love song ever written
Reflects the love from You
Love that's pure and perfect
In everything You do
Fill me Lord with Your love
Let this work be done
The world won't see this servant
The world will see Your Son
 
Last edited:
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Not trying to ramble. There would be pages per post if we both explained everything perfectly. So much so we might as well wait on each others book.

So, you agree it's God's will to heal. You get that from scriptures.

So then there would be just a few differences here. I have taught healing and faith for 17 years... Time goes quick.

So, the differences are:

I don't see suffering under sickness as anything Gospel related. In fact there is no scripture saying to suffer for the cross is sicknes.

We agree this earth is under the curse of the law. We have physical bodies. I don't think we need sickness to die though. God declared our years to 120 in Gen, some say 78 in psa, but more years than some sickness allows.

We don't agree about Paul. some translations are not that great. God does not give us great revelation, then bash us in the head for knowing things. I explained what happened to Paul in a very easy to understand and reasonable way on the first post.

A messenger of Satan. Someone who spreads messeages against what Paul was saying.

Now if Christ means Anointing and power, then Paul went in puffed up in knowledge without factoring in that power. Sufficient Grace from the Lord is more than enough to move mountians and heal any disease. If the explination is reasonable, it should be examined more.

Jesus redemened us from the curse of the Law. You mentioned some of that. That curse brought every sickness not written in the book. Disobeying God brings physical death. Paul even said some now have died for it (sleep) Paul sent Satan to destroy the flesh of the believer who was sleeping with His fathers wife.

Disobedience to the Word is what brought the sickness and punishment. Jesus bore that punishment, not only here, but in the later.

If it's not God will to always heal (Physically) but He heals some, then that is a form of Calvinism. Makes God a respecter of persons. The head of the Church never thought like this. Even the daughter of Abraham whom we are seed, Must be healed.

You see God as "Healing" physically somethimes. I see in scripture that we already have been blessed with all spiritual blessings (Where the healing comes from) and already have been given all things that would pertain to life, through the Knowledge of Jesus.

I see it already done, you see it as something God may do. I see Salvation already done, as you do.

So, I want to convince you It's Gods will to always "Physically" heal, just as much as it's His will all men be saved. I don't take a calvinsim approach where God picks and chooses everything without our input making faith of non effect. I know you don't either.

If everyone who got prayed for you saw from day one was healed, you would not taking sides here, but say it's God's will to always heal.

However, nobody got saved saying I Hope Jesus saved me, you just never know. I'll wait and see if I end up in Hell or not.

We walk by faith, right? Not by experiences, or what happened to others, for you and I know lots who are not saved, and it's not God's fault there either.

Be blessed Major. I hope not to long or confusing.
Merry Christmas! Allow me to say that Christ’s atonement paid the penalty for our sin. Clearly the major emphasis of Isaiah 53 centers on spiritual salvation.

Do we see the apostles use this as a guarantee for their sicknesses or afflictions???

Paul mentions Christ being crushed for our sins in the communion service, but he has nothing to say about healing (using phrases taken from atonement Scriptures).

This verse is cited twice in the New Testament. In Romans 4:25: where the context is Jesus suffering for our sins. The Greek term `healing’ ( The Greek therapis from the Hebrew rapha) is not found in the text and the context deals with sin, not illness.

1 Peter 2:24.......
“who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-- by whose stripes you were healed.”

Again the context is that of healing from sin. So we see that neither New Testament reference to this verse even mentions illness. Peter applies this to the cross and the spiritual healing of sins; he says nothing about the healing of diseases in our now mortal bodies. So we see that both New Testament references to this verse do not mention illness; furthermore it is in the past tense, “ you were healed.”

When Isaiah 53:5 says we are healed. Peter refers to the stripes being on the cross (not before), and says by whose stripes you were healed, making it past tense. Showing that this event was accomplished. It is related to our spiritual healing from sin not our physical well-being.

To further support this interpretation, Isaiah 53:6 speaks of us as sheep going astray. 1 Peter 2:25 also portrays us as sheep gone astray but now returning to the shepherd of our souls to be brought back into fellowship. Today Jesus heals through His death, (the atonement) and through His present ministry of intercession.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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So do the pharises. So do religous people. By faith just explined it to you through scripture but is to rambly for ya. So yes i do believe you and all the others that are saying we believe God heals sometimes. Have no clue or desire to know scripture.
You are willfully ignorant. That is scripture. BUt you would not recognize it. SO I am arrogant, but only to the ignorant.
You choose not to speak to the Scriptures in comment #38.

Is that because they condemn your opinion so that all you are left with is to use personal comments to those that disagree with you and show you in the Scriptures the reason why?
 

By Faith

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Merry Christmas! Allow me to say that Christ’s atonement paid the penalty for our sin. Clearly the major emphasis of Isaiah 53 centers on spiritual salvation.

Do we see the apostles use this as a guarantee for their sicknesses or afflictions???

Paul mentions Christ being crushed for our sins in the communion service, but he has nothing to say about healing (using phrases taken from atonement Scriptures).

This verse is cited twice in the New Testament. In Romans 4:25: where the context is Jesus suffering for our sins. The Greek term `healing’ ( The Greek therapis from the Hebrew rapha) is not found in the text and the context deals with sin, not illness.

1 Peter 2:24.......
“who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-- by whose stripes you were healed.”

Again the context is that of healing from sin. So we see that neither New Testament reference to this verse even mentions illness. Peter applies this to the cross and the spiritual healing of sins; he says nothing about the healing of diseases in our now mortal bodies. So we see that both New Testament references to this verse do not mention illness; furthermore it is in the past tense, “ you were healed.”

When Isaiah 53:5 says we are healed. Peter refers to the stripes being on the cross (not before), and says by whose stripes you were healed, making it past tense. Showing that this event was accomplished. It is related to our spiritual healing from sin not our physical well-being.

To further support this interpretation, Isaiah 53:6 speaks of us as sheep going astray. 1 Peter 2:25 also portrays us as sheep gone astray but now returning to the shepherd of our souls to be brought back into fellowship. Today Jesus heals through His death, (the atonement) and through His present ministry of intercession.
We are going back and forth here on if it's God's will to heal us physically. Seems kind of wierdl two believers saying God does, God does not. We both believe God can, just does God feel like it?

Why is it when we don't want to have to believe for something physically, folks "Spiritulize" it. If you could explain that concept to me, I would apprieciate it.

I can say I believe it's "Spiritual" because I don't have to expect anything I can see. However, Everything from God is done through his Word which is Spirit and life. There is no other thing for physically healing to be, but Spiritual. The Realm of the Spirit is always effected first. From devils plotting to trip you up, to God sending you supply. So, it's sort of a no brainer, God's Word is spirit, and faith comes from our spirit (Not head)

Isa 53:4-5 TS1998 4 Truly, He has borne our sicknesses and carried our pains. Yet we reckoned Him stricken, smitten by Elohim, and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our crookednesses. The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.

Sickness here is physical sickness. Nothing anywhere, by any comparrision of any other Scripture Choliy is some spiritual unseen sickness.

It's his physical stripes He took for our punishment of early death here on earth. It's by his blood our sins are healed and removed.

Jesus fixed both physical and the punishment we deserved to be sent to hell.

Choliy is sickness in Hebrew. It's not some spiritual sickness we don't understand or can see. Real down to earth sickness.

Deu 28:61 kjva Also every sickness, (Choily) and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

Disobedience to God brouht the curse of sin and death. It was not just some "Spiritual sicknes" Disobedience to God cut your life short.

We don't ever, ever, translate something inconsistant with the way the Word of God use it. Sickness in Hebrew never meant some "Spiritual" Sickness.

Just because we don't like something and it rubs our doctrine wrong, means we change our doctrine.

Holy Spirit interpetation of Isa 53:4-5

Why did Jesus come?

We tend to foreget what the scripture says, for all the reason for Jesus even coming here.

1Pe 2:24 kjva Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Jesus was beaten BEFORE he went to the cross "TREE" He bore our sins "IN" his own body. Stripes are outside the body. Two things were accomplished here.
The punishment of sickness and early death taken by His physical stripes.
All our sins born inside his body.

That is 2 things.

1Jn 3:8 kjva He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Heb 2:14 kjva Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Satan had the power to kill if someone steped outside the protection of the Law. A law man could not keep.

The Work of the enemy is to kill, steal and destroy. Jesus came that we can be free of the destroying power of the devil. To stop his work in our life.
Deut 28 list a long list of all the physical things that happen to us for disobedience. The devil goes about hurting, making sick, destroying, stealing. Anything to harm us physically, and our realationship with God.

Holy Spirit interpetation of Isa 53:4-5

Mat 8:16-17 amp 16 When evening came, they brought to Him many who were under the power of demons, and He drove out the spirits with a word and restored to health all who were sick. 17 And thus He fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah, He Himself took [in order to carry away] our weaknesses and infirmities and bore away our diseases. [Isa. 53:4.]



So Major, the Holy Spirit helps us understand that the Passage in Isa is not some spiritual healing. The Holy Spirit tells us, knowing way ahead of time some would misunderstand.

By the interpetation of the Holy Spirit. We are already healed physically. As the Holy Spirit tells us it was Physically healing, not some spiritual healing.

He interpets the passage for us, and the Holy Spirit is never Wrong.

Be blessed Major. Might want to consider some of your thinking about Healing and scriptures.
 
Sep 3, 2009
11,889
4,563
113
Florida
We are going back and forth here on if it's God's will to heal us physically. Seems kind of wierdl two believers saying God does, God does not. We both believe God can, just does God feel like it?

Why is it when we don't want to have to believe for something physically, folks "Spiritulize" it. If you could explain that concept to me, I would apprieciate it.

I can say I believe it's "Spiritual" because I don't have to expect anything I can see. However, Everything from God is done through his Word which is Spirit and life. There is no other thing for physically healing to be, but Spiritual. The Realm of the Spirit is always effected first. From devils plotting to trip you up, to God sending you supply. So, it's sort of a no brainer, God's Word is spirit, and faith comes from our spirit (Not head)

Isa 53:4-5 TS1998 4 Truly, He has borne our sicknesses and carried our pains. Yet we reckoned Him stricken, smitten by Elohim, and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our crookednesses. The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.

Sickness here is physical sickness. Nothing anywhere, by any comparrision of any other Scripture Choliy is some spiritual unseen sickness.

It's his physical stripes He took for our punishment of early death here on earth. It's by his blood our sins are healed and removed.

Jesus fixed both physical and the punishment we deserved to be sent to hell.

Choliy is sickness in Hebrew. It's not some spiritual sickness we don't understand or can see. Real down to earth sickness.

Deu 28:61 kjva Also every sickness, (Choily) and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

Disobedience to God brouht the curse of sin and death. It was not just some "Spiritual sicknes" Disobedience to God cut your life short.

We don't ever, ever, translate something inconsistant with the way the Word of God use it. Sickness in Hebrew never meant some "Spiritual" Sickness.

Just because we don't like something and it rubs our doctrine wrong, means we change our doctrine.

Holy Spirit interpetation of Isa 53:4-5

Why did Jesus come?

We tend to foreget what the scripture says, for all the reason for Jesus even coming here.

1Pe 2:24 kjva Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Jesus was beaten BEFORE he went to the cross "TREE" He bore our sins "IN" his own body. Stripes are outside the body. Two things were accomplished here.
The punishment of sickness and early death taken by His physical stripes.
All our sins born inside his body.

That is 2 things.

1Jn 3:8 kjva He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Heb 2:14 kjva Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Satan had the power to kill if someone steped outside the protection of the Law. A law man could not keep.

The Work of the enemy is to kill, steal and destroy. Jesus came that we can be free of the destroying power of the devil. To stop his work in our life.
Deut 28 list a long list of all the physical things that happen to us for disobedience. The devil goes about hurting, making sick, destroying, stealing. Anything to harm us physically, and our realationship with God.

Holy Spirit interpetation of Isa 53:4-5

Mat 8:16-17 amp 16 When evening came, they brought to Him many who were under the power of demons, and He drove out the spirits with a word and restored to health all who were sick. 17 And thus He fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah, He Himself took [in order to carry away] our weaknesses and infirmities and bore away our diseases. [Isa. 53:4.]



So Major, the Holy Spirit helps us understand that the Passage in Isa is not some spiritual healing. The Holy Spirit tells us, knowing way ahead of time some would misunderstand.

By the interpetation of the Holy Spirit. We are already healed physically. As the Holy Spirit tells us it was Physically healing, not some spiritual healing.

He interpets the passage for us, and the Holy Spirit is never Wrong.

Be blessed Major. Might want to consider some of your thinking about Healing and scriptures.
I have considered them many times over many years. I must tell you Faith that your understanding of Isaiah is in error.

Jesus came to seek and save the lost my brother.

Isaiah 53:5 reads, “But He was wounded (pierced) for our transgressions (Breaking the law), he was bruised (crushed, punished) for our iniquities (sins); the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.” This is in reference to our transgressions and sins being removed at the cross. The Bible states that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin, not healing for sickness. Revelation 1:5 “To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood.” “...the life of the flesh is in the blood...it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul (Lev. 17:11)

“He was Pierced for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities” both having to do with sin.

Further reading says in V.6 his suffering was for our iniquities.

V.8 it was for our transgressions he was stricken.

V.10 he was made an offering for our sin. So included is the stripes referring to the healing of our soul from sin. The word ‘iniquity’ is found 4 times in Isaiah 53 and is the emphasis in its discourse.

In 53:5, Christ was crushed for our iniquities. v.6, the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him.

V.11 He will bear our iniquities.

V.12 and He Himself bore the sins of many. The primary concern in Isaiah 53 is not on its physical effects upon the body, but the spiritual healing on the eternal effects of sin.

The context of Christ’s death centers on the issue of sin. Matthew, Peter and the Ethiopian eunuch understood Isaiah 53 in reference to sin.
Both the books of Leviticus and Hebrews (which is a commentary on Levitical law) demonstrates that the intent of the atonement is primarily about our sin, not diseases. It has everything to do with our sin problem and the redemption needed to remove sin.

As were all the sacrifices from the OT which were types of Christ. Christ’s atonement paid the penalty for our sin. Clearly the major emphasis of Isaiah 53 centers on spiritual salvation.
 

By Faith

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I have considered them many times over many years. I must tell you Faith that your understanding of Isaiah is in error.

Jesus came to seek and save the lost my brother.

Isaiah 53:5 reads, “But He was wounded (pierced) for our transgressions (Breaking the law), he was bruised (crushed, punished) for our iniquities (sins); the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.” This is in reference to our transgressions and sins being removed at the cross. The Bible states that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin, not healing for sickness. Revelation 1:5 “To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood.” “...the life of the flesh is in the blood...it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul (Lev. 17:11)

“He was Pierced for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities” both having to do with sin.

Further reading says in V.6 his suffering was for our iniquities.

V.8 it was for our transgressions he was stricken.

V.10 he was made an offering for our sin. So included is the stripes referring to the healing of our soul from sin. The word ‘iniquity’ is found 4 times in Isaiah 53 and is the emphasis in its discourse.

In 53:5, Christ was crushed for our iniquities. v.6, the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him.

V.11 He will bear our iniquities.

V.12 and He Himself bore the sins of many. The primary concern in Isaiah 53 is not on its physical effects upon the body, but the spiritual healing on the eternal effects of sin.

The context of Christ’s death centers on the issue of sin. Matthew, Peter and the Ethiopian eunuch understood Isaiah 53 in reference to sin.
Both the books of Leviticus and Hebrews (which is a commentary on Levitical law) demonstrates that the intent of the atonement is primarily about our sin, not diseases. It has everything to do with our sin problem and the redemption needed to remove sin.

As were all the sacrifices from the OT which were types of Christ. Christ’s atonement paid the penalty for our sin. Clearly the major emphasis of Isaiah 53 centers on spiritual salvation.
If it did not prove out in my own life, and others, then it would not be so. 17 years of teaching faith in God and this is one I run into constantly.

No doubt, Jesus came to save the lost. Jesus also healed all that were sick and oppresed of the devil.

The Holy Spirit connected that verse with physical healing. As spoken by Isaiah the prophet.............. Physical healing. Not spiritual.

So, we both agree that Jesus came to save us from our sin condtion.

How does someone get saved from that Major? Reading your post, I don't believe you think God's picks and chooses who get saved.

They have to hear the Word, that causes faith, and they respond or don't respond. They go up and confess Jesus Lord of their life. Once they do, You and I don't doubt a bit they have eternal life in them.

We don't doubt that Major, we don't tell them it might have worked, you just have to wait and see if you knock the bottom out of hell later. We are convinced.

Take that same Faith Major, and use it for healing. No doubt, it's done. See what happens. The Word is all the same. The same God that called day, day, by which we set our clocks to by the Eternal word is the same God that made us the seed of Abraham who Jesus said this Daughter of Abraham must be healed.

Jesus would say the same of us. We must be healed, we are the seed of Abraham.

Jesus did far more for us than just make sure we don't roast for eternity. I just got every bill paid, and I never asked anyone a thing or even hinted. I asked God based on being the seed of Abraham, based on what He said.

Same God that also said I am healed.

Prove it out, Paul said prove all things when it came to despising prophecy. If you don't step out, then you don't know.

If the Holy Spirit saying it came to pass, and it was in reference to physical healing that Isaiah said, then it's physical healing.

If they jsut got saved in acts, and the Holy Spirit said that, then it would be healing for sin. I would agree.

I did not though.
 

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I guess it comes down to this. Does the differences make anyone less saved? I don't believe it does, it is just another one of those things people won't agree on. I mentioned my healing to my sister this morning and she was full of doubt and told me I needed to confirm it with my dentist. She was very negative on me being healed and I tried not to take offense to that. If we allow others to bring doubt into our lives then we won't see the blessings and miracles God gives us. I'm not going to quote the next part but it is something a minister said one time and I completely agree with it.

For years this minister was constantly living in miracles where he was a very poor minister and God performed miracles in his own life when he was down and out. Well now this minister is walking in Gods blessings and doesn't see miracles very often in his own life but in others all the time. One day he says, Lord, you haven't performed miracles in my own life for a very long time, Why? God spoke back to him and said, Would you rather go back to the times you needed miracles in your life or walk in my blessing daily so you don't need these miracles?

I know all of us want to be blessed by God and not have bad things happen to us. It is when we start straying away and living in the world when we will start seeing less blessings and more miracles in our lives. I for one would rather stay in the blessing of God and not need the miracles in my life. We have to remember there are those not in Gods blessing and will need us believers to perform these miracles in the name of Jesus. It hasn't stopped with the Apostles and I have seen it first hand in my life and others lives. God Bless
 
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By Faith

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I guess it comes down to this. Does the differences make anyone less saved? I don't believe it does, it is just another one of those things people won't agree on. I mentioned my healing to my sister this morning and she was full of doubt and told me I needed to confirm it with my dentist. She was very negative on me being healed and I tried not to take offense to that. If we allow others to bring doubt into our lives then we won't see the blessings and miracles God gives us. I'm not going to quote the next part but it is something a minister said one time and I completely agree with it.

For years this minister was constantly living in miracles where he was a very poor minister and God performed miracles in his own life when he was down and out. Well now this minister is walking in Gods blessings and doesn't see miracles very often in his own life but in others all the time. One day he says, Lord, you haven't performed miracles in my own life for a very long time, Why? God spoke back to him and said, Would you rather go back to the times you needed miracles in your life or walk in my blessing daily so you don't need these miracles?

I know all of us want to be blessed by God and not have bad things happen to us. It is when we start straying away and living in the world when we will start seeing less blessings and more miracles in our lives. I for one would rather stay in the blessing of God and not need the miracles in my life. We have to remember there are those not in Gods blessing and will need us believers to perform these miracles in the name of Jesus. It hasn't stopped with the Apostles and I have seen it first hand in my life and others lives. God Bless
This needs sticky. I have taught this before. The goal is to live right and not have to have one miracle after the other to bail us out constantly. To live in the blessing, not live in God having to save you constantly at the last moment.

If God is constantly bailing us out, healing us, then we are giving way to much room for the enemy to operate in our lives. Good stuff here.
 
I guess it comes down to this. Does the differences make anyone less saved? I don't believe it does, it is just another one of those things people won't agree on. I mentioned my healing to my sister this morning and she was full of doubt and told me I needed to confirm it with my dentist. She was very negative on me being healed and I tried not to take offense to that. If we allow others to bring doubt into our lives then we won't see the blessings and miracles God gives us. I'm not going to quote the next part but it is something a minister said one time and I completely agree with it.

For years this minister was constantly living in miracles where he was a very poor minister and God performed miracles in his own life when he was down and out. Well now this minister is walking in Gods blessings and doesn't see miracles very often in his own life but in others all the time. One day he says, Lord, you haven't performed miracles in my own life for a very long time, Why? God spoke back to him and said, Would you rather go back to the times you needed miracles in your life or walk in my blessing daily so you don't need these miracles?

I know all of us want to be blessed by God and not have bad things happen to us. It is when we start straying away and living in the world when we will start seeing less blessings and more miracles in our lives. I for one would rather stay in the blessing of God and not need the miracles in my life. We have to remember there are those not in Gods blessing and will need us believers to perform these miracles in the name of Jesus. It hasn't stopped with the Apostles and I have seen it first hand in my life and others lives. God Bless

This whole post is awesome sauce lol... ^^ everyone should read this..it does indeed deserve a sticky : 3
 
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If it did not prove out in my own life, and others, then it would not be so. 17 years of teaching faith in God and this is one I run into constantly.

No doubt, Jesus came to save the lost. Jesus also healed all that were sick and oppresed of the devil.

The Holy Spirit connected that verse with physical healing. As spoken by Isaiah the prophet.............. Physical healing. Not spiritual.

So, we both agree that Jesus came to save us from our sin condtion.

How does someone get saved from that Major? Reading your post, I don't believe you think God's picks and chooses who get saved.

They have to hear the Word, that causes faith, and they respond or don't respond. They go up and confess Jesus Lord of their life. Once they do, You and I don't doubt a bit they have eternal life in them.

We don't doubt that Major, we don't tell them it might have worked, you just have to wait and see if you knock the bottom out of hell later. We are convinced.

Take that same Faith Major, and use it for healing. No doubt, it's done. See what happens. The Word is all the same. The same God that called day, day, by which we set our clocks to by the Eternal word is the same God that made us the seed of Abraham who Jesus said this Daughter of Abraham must be healed.

Jesus would say the same of us. We must be healed, we are the seed of Abraham.

Jesus did far more for us than just make sure we don't roast for eternity. I just got every bill paid, and I never asked anyone a thing or even hinted. I asked God based on being the seed of Abraham, based on what He said.

Same God that also said I am healed.

Prove it out, Paul said prove all things when it came to despising prophecy. If you don't step out, then you don't know.

If the Holy Spirit saying it came to pass, and it was in reference to physical healing that Isaiah said, then it's physical healing.

If they jsut got saved in acts, and the Holy Spirit said that, then it would be healing for sin. I would agree.

I did not though.
My dear brother, I believe in God's supernatural healing as much as YOU do and our God is one who does miracles. Today we hear, and that is what you just stated, that it only takes faith for the Lord to answer our prayer. What If one is not healed by faith, does it means they are a failure, because they did not exercise the faith that God needed in order to react. Jesus When Jesus was physically on earth he healed everyone that asked Him, But he also healed those who did not ask Him.


Luke 6:19: “And the whole multitude sought to touch Him, for power went out from Him and healed them all.”

Luke 9:11: “But when the multitudes knew it, they followed Him; and He received them and spoke to them about the kingdom of God, and healed those who had need of healing.”

Yet when we look carefully Jesus healed as many people that had no faith, than did and that upsets the apple cart of having enough faith and you will be healed. Sometimes he required faith, other times he did not. People were healed by His grace and mercy because of His love and most importantly to show the people who He was. It was to valid His position as Messiah because they people wanted a sign.

Matt 14:14 :“And when Jesus went out He saw a great multitude; and He was moved with compassion for them, and healed their sick.”

So many brought friends and loved ones out to be healed.

Matt 15:30:: “Then great multitudes came to Him, having with them the lame, blind, mute, maimed, and many others; and they laid them down at Jesus' feet, and He healed them.”

Healings were done in numerous ways. There were times Jesus responded to the faith of another person who asked on behalf of the one who needed healing.

Matt. 8:5-10- It was the faith of the centurion that healed his own servant. If we apply this today those who have enough faith for their own healing can apply it to everyone else to be healed.

Mk.5:35-43 -The daughter of Jairus was healed from the fathers faith and asking.
The paralytic was carried by his friends to Jesus and “When Jesus saw their faith” (for their friend) He pronounced his sins forgiven first and then healed him (Mark 2:2-12).

Lk.17:11-19 Jesus healed all 10 lepers but only one obeyed showing that he was the only one to possess true saving faith.

Jesus healed people from the ultimate sickness of sin, death. In Jn.11 Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead ,certainly it wasn’t Lazarus’ faith that raised himself, he was dead, neither did anyone else believe it could occur then. It was done so they could believe he was their Messiah (also Lk. 8:54).

Now IF you choose to believe that Isaiah 53 is speaking of PHYSICAL healing then you go right ahead and do so. I totally disagree with your understanding and say again that the context is SPIRITUAL HEALING OF SIN, and that is exactly what Peter confirmed it said, but it is your choice my friend. Personally I wish it did mean physical healing but the simple fact is that the grammatical Hebrew just does not allow it to be that way. YOU must force the meaning that you want it to say and are not accepting the Scriptures are they are stated, but again, I will not argue with you over it because it is not an essential belief that determines our place in heaven.

I believe that if you dig in and do some study on this whole thing, you will see that we are currently forgiven and cleansed by the blood in a legal sense but not in a completed physical sense. This is reserved for the day of our resurrection when corruptible will become incorruptible. It is only then sin will be dealt the deathblow and we will live forever in an immortal physical body. We are presently clothed in Christ’s righteousness because we have faith in him who fulfilled the law, and is our substitute, our atonement, our sacrifice!!!!

One day we will personally be made righteous and what He accomplished will be fully applied to our body, not just our spirit. Rom.8:15 says that we live in a fallen world until the time of restoration. When one teaches all must be healed now they must ignore the context of the greater portion of Scripture. I say this in love and not to be in conflict with you but the faith teachers are not dividing the word correctly. They teach by faith we can today obtain everything scripture says. They apply blessings what will only take place millennial to us now.
 
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We are going back and forth here on if it's God's will to heal us physically. Seems kind of wierdl two believers saying God does, God does not. We both believe God can, just does God feel like it?

Why is it when we don't want to have to believe for something physically, folks "Spiritulize" it. If you could explain that concept to me, I would apprieciate it.

I can say I believe it's "Spiritual" because I don't have to expect anything I can see. However, Everything from God is done through his Word which is Spirit and life. There is no other thing for physically healing to be, but Spiritual. The Realm of the Spirit is always effected first. From devils plotting to trip you up, to God sending you supply. So, it's sort of a no brainer, God's Word is spirit, and faith comes from our spirit (Not head)

Isa 53:4-5 TS1998 4 Truly, He has borne our sicknesses and carried our pains. Yet we reckoned Him stricken, smitten by Elohim, and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our crookednesses. The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.

Sickness here is physical sickness. Nothing anywhere, by any comparrision of any other Scripture Choliy is some spiritual unseen sickness.

It's his physical stripes He took for our punishment of early death here on earth. It's by his blood our sins are healed and removed.

Jesus fixed both physical and the punishment we deserved to be sent to hell.

Choliy is sickness in Hebrew. It's not some spiritual sickness we don't understand or can see. Real down to earth sickness.

Deu 28:61 kjva Also every sickness, (Choily) and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

Disobedience to God brouht the curse of sin and death. It was not just some "Spiritual sicknes" Disobedience to God cut your life short.

We don't ever, ever, translate something inconsistant with the way the Word of God use it. Sickness in Hebrew never meant some "Spiritual" Sickness.

Just because we don't like something and it rubs our doctrine wrong, means we change our doctrine.

Holy Spirit interpetation of Isa 53:4-5

Why did Jesus come?

We tend to foreget what the scripture says, for all the reason for Jesus even coming here.

1Pe 2:24 kjva Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Jesus was beaten BEFORE he went to the cross "TREE" He bore our sins "IN" his own body. Stripes are outside the body. Two things were accomplished here.
The punishment of sickness and early death taken by His physical stripes.
All our sins born inside his body.

That is 2 things.

1Jn 3:8 kjva He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Heb 2:14 kjva Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Satan had the power to kill if someone steped outside the protection of the Law. A law man could not keep.

The Work of the enemy is to kill, steal and destroy. Jesus came that we can be free of the destroying power of the devil. To stop his work in our life.
Deut 28 list a long list of all the physical things that happen to us for disobedience. The devil goes about hurting, making sick, destroying, stealing. Anything to harm us physically, and our realationship with God.

Holy Spirit interpetation of Isa 53:4-5

Mat 8:16-17 amp 16 When evening came, they brought to Him many who were under the power of demons, and He drove out the spirits with a word and restored to health all who were sick. 17 And thus He fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah, He Himself took [in order to carry away] our weaknesses and infirmities and bore away our diseases. [Isa. 53:4.]



So Major, the Holy Spirit helps us understand that the Passage in Isa is not some spiritual healing. The Holy Spirit tells us, knowing way ahead of time some would misunderstand.

By the interpetation of the Holy Spirit. We are already healed physically. As the Holy Spirit tells us it was Physically healing, not some spiritual healing.

He interpets the passage for us, and the Holy Spirit is never Wrong.

Be blessed Major. Might want to consider some of your thinking about Healing and scriptures.
If I may be so bold my brother, we are not saying different things at all. Read all of the conversations on this and I think that you will see that I am saying God heals and so are you and The Word or Nothing. Where the disagreement is at is I am saying tat I do not believe that MAN has the gift of healing and YOU do.

I believe what the Scriptures say on healing in James 5:14-16..........
"Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working".

I understand what you are saying however IMO it is misplaced theology. While ultimate physical healing is in the atonement (a healing we will enjoy in our resurrection bodies), healing of our bodies while in the mortal state (prior to our death and resurrection) is not guaranteed in the atonement.

Moreover, it is important to note that the Hebrew word for healing (napha) can refer not just to physical healing but to spiritual healing. The context of Isaiah 53:4 indicates that spiritual healing is in view. In verse 5 we are clearly told, "He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed" (v. 5). Because "transgressions" and "iniquities" set the context, spiritual healing from the misery of man's sin is in view.

In addition to that, there are numerous verses in Scripture which reveal that our physical bodies are continuously running down and suffering various ailments. Our present bodies are said to be perishable and weak (1 Corinthians 15:42-44).

Paul said "our outer man is decaying" (2 Corinthians 4:16).

Death and disease will be a part of the human condition until that time when we receive resurrection bodies that are immune to such frailties (1 Corinthians 15:51-55).

Am I saying we shouldn't pray for healing? No, not at all. I'm just saying that after we've asked for healing, we need to submit to God's sovereign will. He may have a purpose in allowing our illness.
 

By Faith

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If I may be so bold my brother, we are not saying different things at all. Read all of the conversations on this and I think that you will see that I am saying God heals and so are you and The Word or Nothing. Where the disagreement is at is I am saying tat I do not believe that MAN has the gift of healing and YOU do.

I believe what the Scriptures say on healing in James 5:14-16..........
"Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working".

I understand what you are saying however IMO it is misplaced theology. While ultimate physical healing is in the atonement (a healing we will enjoy in our resurrection bodies), healing of our bodies while in the mortal state (prior to our death and resurrection) is not guaranteed in the atonement.

Moreover, it is important to note that the Hebrew word for healing (napha) can refer not just to physical healing but to spiritual healing. The context of Isaiah 53:4 indicates that spiritual healing is in view. In verse 5 we are clearly told, "He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed" (v. 5). Because "transgressions" and "iniquities" set the context, spiritual healing from the misery of man's sin is in view.

In addition to that, there are numerous verses in Scripture which reveal that our physical bodies are continuously running down and suffering various ailments. Our present bodies are said to be perishable and weak (1 Corinthians 15:42-44).

Paul said "our outer man is decaying" (2 Corinthians 4:16).

Death and disease will be a part of the human condition until that time when we receive resurrection bodies that are immune to such frailties (1 Corinthians 15:51-55).

Am I saying we shouldn't pray for healing? No, not at all. I'm just saying that after we've asked for healing, we need to submit to God's sovereign will. He may have a purpose in allowing our illness.
Your almost there. Not near as bad as some, you have a very through view of all the scriptures you put together.

1) We submit to God. Healing did come in many ways. Go wash, speak the Word only, and so on. Following direction is important to getting healed. Nahman wanted to dictate to God how to get healed. He was told to wash in a river, he had other ideas about it. I see what your saying. I teach that God wants you well, but it comes with following His direction, not your direction.

2) We are the righteousness of God now. Righteousness just means right standing with.

3) Our outward man is dying day by day. No question there. Do we have to die early and sick though?

4) Many where healed by Jesus without their input. Peter's shadow fell on many and they were Healed. Paul's Handkerchief healed and drove out devils. The presence of the anointing of God heals people.

Man with Power to Heal?
Man does not have power to heal. The gifts of Healing operating is as the Spirit wills. Not something we will. We do have passages we can just do by faith in the Word as you mentioned some of them like James.

Isa 53: I have to tie that in to both Healing for sin, and Physical healing as the Holy Spirit tied it in to physical healing. Jesus bore the punisment we deserved and redemned us from the curse of the law. That curse brought not only sickness, but poverty and mental issues as well. All listed in Deut 28:. We have been made free from that curse.

So, then if it's possible to stop God by unbelief, sin, or disobedience from doing all the Good God would want to do for you. Then it's possible that someone may miss their healing or anything else they ask God.

Jesus stopped not being able to do any might works because of the folks in his own town were full of unbelief.

Peter sinking after having fear of the wind, though it was the Lord's will to come out.

Israel given the promise land, only to loose it in Num 14 when God said I am going to breach my promise to you. They entered not in because of unbelief.

King Saul who God was grieved with because Saul just would not obey him.

The best in the World, the disciples given direct power to cast out devils and heal the sick, could not cast one devil out because of their unbelief. Jesus went and cast the devil out after asking the Father what He believed.

Eli promised the priesthood would not get his sons in order, and the Lord saying Though I did promise you that, Far be it from me, for I honor whom honors me.

So Major, I submit that it's the will of God to heal, but also I submit we as people have lots more to learn about obeying, faith, and understanding God better.

What is wrong with Preaching it's God's will to heal, supply your need, and help you?

Paul preaching, and precieving a man had faith to be healed, said rise and walk.

I don't suspect Paul was preaching that God may or may not heal. Paul preached something that convinced this man that healing was a fact in all Jesus did. You don't get faith on maybe's or you just never no.

If the Holy Spirit tied Isa 53 to physical healing, then I ask are all the explinations unreasonable?

When looking at opposing Doctrine, I ask if the explination they give is unreasonable, or could it fit.

Your explination seems reasonable enough. We do live in a dying body, we don't pick what way God does heal. All you said is true, but nothing denotes it's not God's will that we be healed, supply met, fed, taken care of.

If the Word was all calvinist point of view which removes our faith as God picks anyway, then I would agree.

If I see man can mess up what God wants to do, then I have to ask if it's us not recieving what is all possible.
 

Glomung

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Men have no inherent power to do much of anything.
God does the healing.
And for some, God does not heal.
 
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Your almost there. Not near as bad as some, you have a very through view of all the scriptures you put together.

1) We submit to God. Healing did come in many ways. Go wash, speak the Word only, and so on. Following direction is important to getting healed. Nahman wanted to dictate to God how to get healed. He was told to wash in a river, he had other ideas about it. I see what your saying. I teach that God wants you well, but it comes with following His direction, not your direction.

2) We are the righteousness of God now. Righteousness just means right standing with.

3) Our outward man is dying day by day. No question there. Do we have to die early and sick though?

4) Many where healed by Jesus without their input. Peter's shadow fell on many and they were Healed. Paul's Handkerchief healed and drove out devils. The presence of the anointing of God heals people.

Man with Power to Heal?
Man does not have power to heal. The gifts of Healing operating is as the Spirit wills. Not something we will. We do have passages we can just do by faith in the Word as you mentioned some of them like James.

Isa 53: I have to tie that in to both Healing for sin, and Physical healing as the Holy Spirit tied it in to physical healing. Jesus bore the punisment we deserved and redemned us from the curse of the law. That curse brought not only sickness, but poverty and mental issues as well. All listed in Deut 28:. We have been made free from that curse.

So, then if it's possible to stop God by unbelief, sin, or disobedience from doing all the Good God would want to do for you. Then it's possible that someone may miss their healing or anything else they ask God.

Jesus stopped not being able to do any might works because of the folks in his own town were full of unbelief.

Peter sinking after having fear of the wind, though it was the Lord's will to come out.

Israel given the promise land, only to loose it in Num 14 when God said I am going to breach my promise to you. They entered not in because of unbelief.

King Saul who God was grieved with because Saul just would not obey him.

The best in the World, the disciples given direct power to cast out devils and heal the sick, could not cast one devil out because of their unbelief. Jesus went and cast the devil out after asking the Father what He believed.

Eli promised the priesthood would not get his sons in order, and the Lord saying Though I did promise you that, Far be it from me, for I honor whom honors me.

So Major, I submit that it's the will of God to heal, but also I submit we as people have lots more to learn about obeying, faith, and understanding God better.

What is wrong with Preaching it's God's will to heal, supply your need, and help you?

Paul preaching, and precieving a man had faith to be healed, said rise and walk.

I don't suspect Paul was preaching that God may or may not heal. Paul preached something that convinced this man that healing was a fact in all Jesus did. You don't get faith on maybe's or you just never no.

If the Holy Spirit tied Isa 53 to physical healing, then I ask are all the explinations unreasonable?

When looking at opposing Doctrine, I ask if the explination they give is unreasonable, or could it fit.

Your explination seems reasonable enough. We do live in a dying body, we don't pick what way God does heal. All you said is true, but nothing denotes it's not God's will that we be healed, supply met, fed, taken care of.

If the Word was all calvinist point of view which removes our faith as God picks anyway, then I would agree.

If I see man can mess up what God wants to do, then I have to ask if it's us not recieving what is all possible.
Excellent.

Now that we are focused, would you care to explain......
" If the Holy Spirit tied Isa 53 to physical healing, then I ask are all the explinations unreasonable?"

When did that happen???? That does seem to be he center of your thesis.