Poll on hell

[Major]

God doesn't teach immortality for nonbelievers.

Yes He does.

Can you explain Rev. 20:10 if it is not concerning immortality for nonbelievers.........
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

The beast and false prophet are NONEBELIEVERS!

Now explain Rev. 20:14-15........
"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.a]'>[a] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Now Rev. 21:8................
"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

We may not like it but the Word of God clearly says that NONEBELIEVERS will be tormented in a place that burns forever and forever and THEY will be tormented eternally.

 

[Major]

No, it is concerning a heart condition. Hatred cannot exist with love. There is no darkness in God at all 1 John 1:5, God wants the same for us. God wanted those being impaled by Nero to love him yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Do you have a verse that says we must hate the devil and / or the wicked? Jesus did not refer to the devil as our chief enemy? Jesus literally said only enemies that are people? Must the angels in heaven love the fallen angels? Must they also only love evil people?

If Hatred from God was complete / full measure, He would not tolerate wickedness in His universe at all. Making a strong case for annihilation. God keeping His enemy alive for eternity can only point to Him loving them. If His intentions are to keep them alive solely for torture...how do we not serve a God worse then Nero?

KingJ.....first of all there is NO CASE what so ever in the Bible for Annihilation!!! It just is not there unless it is something that you want to believe and then it can be read into what does not exist.

You must know that annihilationism ignores the meaning of the words translated "death" and "die" in Scripture. The word translated "death" in the New Testament is never, ever defined as "annihilation". That is grammatical Greek and can not be changed. It is what it is my brother.

Can the word translated "death" in Romans 6:23 mean annihilation? Yes, the Greek word thanatos can have that meaning. But among the 119 occurrences of that word in the New Testament, there is not a single case where the meaning of thanatos is clearly and unequivocally stated to be annihilation, or where this meaning can be clearly derived from the context. The same is true of the 121 occurrences of the verb apothnesko, "to die".

Second, annihilationism denies the substitutionary nature of Christ's death. Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus Christ suffered death (thanatos) in the place of believers:

Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. (Acts 2:23-24)

For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (Romans 5:10)

For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes. (1 Corinthians 11:26)

And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. (Philippians 2:8)

My brother, I ask you to please consider the fact that IF annihilation is the punishment of the lost, then Jesus' death on the cross would not be a substitutionary death. He was not annihilated by the wildest stretch of the imagination. If annihilation is God's just punishment for sinners, then Jesus Christ did not suffer the punishment that sinners deserve and will receive. On this basis alone, annihilationism is Biblically untenable.

 

[Major]

I am not disputing that we will go to hell. Just that we can't claim hell was not prepared for us because of Matt 25:42. My argument is it was. Just like heaven is prepared for some of us.

But that is NOT what the Scriptures say my brother.

Matt. 25:42.......
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

 

[Arrie03]

If your father is the devil, will you not join him for eternity as opposed to joining our Lord Yeshua.
But the one will be in a placed prepared for him, called hell, the other is wonderful heaven.

 

[KingJ]

KingJ.....first of all there is NO CASE what so ever in the Bible for Annihilation!!! It just is not there unless it is something that you want to believe and then it can be read into what does not exist.

You must know that annihilationism ignores the meaning of the words translated "death" and "die" in Scripture. The word translated "death" in the New Testament is never, ever defined as "annihilation". That is grammatical Greek and can not be changed. It is what it is my brother.

Can the word translated "death" in Romans 6:23 mean annihilation? Yes, the Greek word thanatos can have that meaning. But among the 119 occurrences of that word in the New Testament, there is not a single case where the meaning of thanatos is clearly and unequivocally stated to be annihilation, or where this meaning can be clearly derived from the context. The same is true of the 121 occurrences of the verb apothnesko, "to die".

Second, annihilationism denies the substitutionary nature of Christ's death. Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus Christ suffered death (thanatos) in the place of believers:

Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. (Acts 2:23-24)

For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (Romans 5:10)

For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes. (1 Corinthians 11:26)

And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. (Philippians 2:8)

My brother, I ask you to please consider the fact that IF annihilation is the punishment of the lost, then Jesus' death on the cross would not be a substitutionary death. He was not annihilated by the wildest stretch of the imagination. If annihilation is God's just punishment for sinners, then Jesus Christ did not suffer the punishment that sinners deserve and will receive. On this basis alone, annihilationism is Biblically untenable.

Thanks for your effort here Major. I do agree with you. I was trying to make another point in my post, it was not my intention to push annihilation.

 

[KingJ]

But that is NOT what the Scriptures say my brother.

Matt. 25:42.......
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

I guess this is then evidence of hell being built long before God decided to create us. If Jesus going to the cross was planned before the foundations of the earth so too was hell for those that reject Him.

 

[KingJ]

I have one that says not to if that will help

Yes, please share.

 

[Major]

I guess this is then evidence of hell being built long before God decided to create us. If Jesus going to the cross was planned before the foundations of the earth so too was hell for those that reject Him.

Good point. We know that God created hell for the devil and his angels because the Scriptures clearly tell us in Matt. 25:41.....
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels".
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

First of all, there was no point in creating this place of punishment before the devil and his angels rebelled. I am not saying that God did not do that, only that there was no point to do so at that time.

Secondly, it must have been created before the fall of Adam or else it would have been created for him and his descendants too.
Wouldn't you agree with that???

 

[Major]

Thanks for your effort here Major. I do agree with you. I was trying to make another point in my post, it was not my intention to push annihilation.

Ooops. My apologies. I took it the wrong way.

 

[Major]

If your father is the devil, will you not join him for eternity as opposed to joining our Lord Yeshua.
But the one will be in a placed prepared for him, called hell, the other is wonderful heaven.

Agreed! Just like real estate, it is all about LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION!

 

[ATP]

Spirits are immortal. The dead outside of Christ will be raised to stand before God---in bodies that won't disintegrate or die in His glorious presence. They will be cast bodily into the Lake of Fire, and their spirits will anguish forever.

Yes He does.

Can you explain if it is not concerning immortality for nonbelievers.........
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

The beast and false prophet are NONEBELIEVERS!

Now explain ........
"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.a]'>[a] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Now ................
"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

We may not like it but the Word of God clearly says that NONEBELIEVERS will be tormented in a place that burns forever and forever and THEY will be tormented eternally.

Only God is immortal, and immortality is a gift. To be burned forever, nonbelievers would also need to be immortal because their heart would still be beating in the lake of fire. Immortality is only given to saints though.

immortal / adjective
1. not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying: our immortal souls.
2. not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting.
3. perpetual; lasting; constant: an immortal enemy.

The word perish, decay and death only relates to nonbelievers..

NIV For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
NIV because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.
NIV Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

The word imperishable and everlasting only relate to believers..

NIV "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Immortality is a gift, given to us by the Father..

NIV The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

1 V who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

- ATP

 

[Euphemia]

Only God is immortal, and immortality is a gift. To be burned forever, nonbelievers would also need to be immortal because their heart would still be beating in the lake of fire. Immortality is only given to saints though.

immortal / adjective
1. not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying: our immortal souls.
2. not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting.
3. perpetual; lasting; constant: an immortal enemy.

The word perish, decay and death only relates to nonbelievers..

NIV For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
NIV because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.
NIV Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

The word imperishable and everlasting only relate to believers..

NIV "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Immortality is a gift, given to us by the Father..

NIV The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

1 V who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

- ATP

We are created in the image of God and because He is immortal, so is humankind, by virtue of His creating us as tripartite beings: body, soul---and spirit.

 

[ATP]

We are created in the image of God and because He is immortal, so is humankind, by virtue of His creating us as tripartite beings: body, soul---and spirit.

Immortality is given to us by the Father at the first resurrection. It is a gift just like salvation is.

immortal / adjective
1. not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying: our immortal souls.
2. not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting.
3. perpetual; lasting; constant: an immortal enemy.

 

[Euphemia]

Immortality is given to us by the Father at the first resurrection. It is a gift just like salvation is.

immortal / adjective
1. not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying: our immortal souls.
2. not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting.
3. perpetual; lasting; constant: an immortal enemy.

We have immortality now, being human. The destination of that immortality is what is in question for all people. People who have received the gift of righteousness in Christ will spend eternity with God. Those who have not received that gift of righteousness will spend it with Satan.

 

[Cosmicwaffle]

We have been given eternal life, they will go to eternal punishment.

 

[Euphemia]

We have been given eternal life, they will go to eternal punishment.

Exactly, as our existence as spiritual beings is never extinguished, whether we are deemed righteous or wicked.

 

[Major]

Only God is immortal, and immortality is a gift. To be burned forever, nonbelievers would also need to be immortal because their heart would still be beating in the lake of fire. Immortality is only given to saints though.

immortal / adjective
1. not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying: our immortal souls.
2. not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting.
3. perpetual; lasting; constant: an immortal enemy.

The word perish, decay and death only relates to nonbelievers..

NIV For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
NIV because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.
NIV Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

The word imperishable and everlasting only relate to believers..

NIV "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Immortality is a gift, given to us by the Father..

NIV The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

1 V who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

- ATP

I am sorry to disagree with you but in the case I must as it goes against the Bible.

Luke 16:........
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."

Clearly we can see that the language is PLURAL-ONGOING_CONTINUEING!

The grammatical use of the Greek can not be changed to suit our thinking!

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

No, it is concerning a heart condition. Hatred cannot exist with love. There is no darkness in God at all 1 John 1:5, God wants the same for us. God wanted those being impaled by Nero to love him yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Do you have a verse that says we must hate the devil and / or the wicked? Jesus did not refer to the devil as our chief enemy? Jesus literally said only enemies that are people? Must the angels in heaven love the fallen angels? Must they also only love evil people?

If Hatred from God was complete / full measure, He would not tolerate wickedness in His universe at all. Making a strong case for annihilation. God keeping His enemy alive for eternity can only point to Him loving them. If His intentions are to keep them alive solely for torture...how do we not serve a God worse then Nero?

King God hates evil and sin.

 

[ATP]

We have immortality now, being human.

We actually do not have immortality now. Immortality is given to us as a gift at the first resurrection. We as humans will all die one day.

We have been given eternal life, they will go to eternal punishment.

Notice the word "deraon" is used to describe contempt and loathsome in Dan 12:2 and Isa 66:24. They are already dead, so unquenchable fire I believe is simply picture language.

I am sorry to disagree with you but in the case I must as it goes against the Bible.

Luke 16:........
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."

Clearly we can see that the language is PLURAL-ONGOING_CONTINUEING!

The grammatical use of the Greek can not be changed to suit our thinking!

I went over this scripture about 5-6 times with you. Are you not reading what I post. The definition of immortality is clear and only speaks to believers.

Hades is only used once in the Bible as hell fire, in Luke 16:19-31. The remainder of the Bible, Hades is the grave. I would submit that in that passage Jesus is alluding to something the Pharisees would have been familiar with. The Song of Moses was a description of how Israel would turn away from Him. In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man I believe Jesus is speaking of the priesthood and their demise. Here is the passage I believe Jesus is alluding too. Hell in this passage of Deu 32 is Sheol. Because Sheol/Hades is the grave and Gehenna is the place of fire. I think the Pharisees would see the connection between Jesus' words and the Song of Moses...

Deut 32:18-22 YLT The Rock that begat thee thou forgettest, And neglectest God who formeth thee. 19And Jehovah seeth and despiseth — For the provocation of His sons and His daughters. 20And He saith: I hide My face from them, I see what [is] their latter end; For a froward generation [are] they, Sons in whom is no stedfastness. 21They have made Me zealous by ‘no-god,’ They made Me angry by their vanities; And I make them zealous by ‘no-people,’ By a foolish nation I make them angry. 22For a fire hath been kindled in Mine anger, And it burneth unto Sheol — the lowest, And consumeth earth and its increase, And setteth on fire foundations of mountains.

The Priesthood - I'm thinking that he used Hades instead of Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, so we would make the distinction between the priesthood in this life vs. the afterlife. If Luke used Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, then we would be certain he was referring to the afterlife, but he didn't. So we know he was simply telling a story about the demise of the priesthood and has nothing to do with the afterlife. Luke could of wrote it like this, but he didn't......

Example 1: Verse 22-23 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Gehenna, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Example 2: Verse 22-23 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In the Lake of Fire, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Let's take a look at Luke 16:19 NIV “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.

1. Purple is a color which is used in Scripture for the following: priestly garments (Ex 39:2, 24, 29); royal apparel (Judges 8:26; Esther 8:15); and is synonymous with wealth in Rev 18:16.
2. Fine linen was used extensively in the priestly garments such as the ephod, robe, mitre, and bonnet. (Ex 39). Linen is used as a symbol of wealth in Rev 18:16.
3. Only one class in Israel was habitually clothed in purple and linen and fared sumptuously every day4 - the High Priestly class of Sadducees.

 

[Euphemia]

As children of the Most High God, we have our immortality now. We will change, but we shall never die.

John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”