Post-millennialism

MichaelH said:
OK, I watched it. I like the optimism as scripture never portrays a defeated Church. Jesus said on this Rock I'll build my church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail. He is able to present to himself a glorious church without spot or wrinkle. No scripture predicted any doom of the church or falling away.

Now there are lots of groups that call themselves church, but Jesus don't consider them part of His church. The Shepard is more than able to keep the sheep and the Father is more than able to keep you from getting ripped out of his hand.

Post trib belives the church is messed up, but that just means they are going to the wrong church.

I agree with lots of his views. I just wished he used scriptures. Just story after story and no scripture. Stories are good, but in connection with scripture. He went on for 15 minutes about sounds............

The guy is young and I believe He will mature. You notice he did not have many in his crowd.

However............. God is going to trash this planet with many still here. Just the first trumpet burns up 1/3 of all the trees on earth will knock out power all over the planet mixed with Hail and blood. It's mixed so it does not burn the earth up completely but worse is yet to come.
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Thank you thank you thank you!!!!!!!!

I really love hearing this pastor preach but I agree with what you say. One of the main reasons I stuck around was because of the optimism.

I'm excited to read Gods word this morning.
 
AllieWi said:
Ok I have another question . Where are we (believers) during the 1000 year millenium?
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Good question!

Too long to post here, but read Revelation 21 & 22. They are the description of the eternal state centering on Jerusalem as the eternal habitation of the saved. (Heb. 11:10; 12:22-24).

The Holy City described in 21:2 is the "Bride of Christ"/ Church of believers and the New Jerusalem will be the home of that group of people.

Everyone will not agree with me and that is OK, but IMHO, since the Lord Jesus created ALL things, heavens, stars, suns, universe and earth, and we will have a glorified body just as does Jesus, we will be able to travel wherever we want to go. That is my personal opinion!

The eternal purpose of God to gather a holy, devoted people for Himself will now have been accomplished.
 
AllieWi said:
Thank you thank you thank you!!!!!!!!

I really love hearing this pastor preach but I agree with what you say. One of the main reasons I stuck around was because of the optimism.

I'm excited to read Gods word this morning.
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Allie........make sure what is said is what was said as told to us in the Scriptures. We must be sure that what is said is truth and not what we want to hear. One of the great problems in Bible study is allowing what WE want to overshadow what really is the Word of God. That comes from emotions, feelings and excitement.
 
Major said:
Allie........make sure what is said is what was said as told to us in the Scriptures. We must be sure that what is said is truth and not what we want to hear. One of the great problems in Bible study is allowing what WE want to overshadow what really is the Word of God. That comes from emotions, feelings and excitement.
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I understand that. This was backed up by scripture. For example he cited Micah 5 in support of a post millennial view.


"The people of Israel will be abandoned to their enemies until the woman in labor gives birth. Then at last his fellow countrymen will return from exile to their own land. And he will stand to lead his flock with the Lord ’s strength, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God. Then his people will live there undisturbed, for he will be highly honored around the world." Micah 5:3, 4

I guess my question here is : what does this last verse mean? It sounds like after Jesus is born and finishes His work on the cross..That he will be highly honored and that the people will live Undisturbed?

To me that sounds like he's building up his kingdom as we speak. But perhaps I'm reading into wrong.

I wouldn't have noticed this on my own---only when the pastor pointed it out. Maybe therein lies the danger of not taking the Bible literally, too many interpretations.
 
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And here in Isaiah verse 7-- ESTABLISHING AND UPHOLDING His kingdom.

What do you guys make of this verse? And can you dispute this scripture as further proof of a Postmillenial return?

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. (Isaiah 9:6, 7 KJV)

I apologize if it's not ok to ask you to try and refute this--- my wording may not be correct. I'm just trying to learn I'm not claiming to know the truth. I'm truth-seeking. :)
 
AllieWi said:
I understand that. This was backed up by scripture. For example he cited Micah 5 in support of a post millennial view.


"The people of Israel will be abandoned to their enemies until the woman in labor gives birth. Then at last his fellow countrymen will return from exile to their own land. And he will stand to lead his flock with the Lord ’s strength, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God. Then his people will live there undisturbed, for he will be highly honored around the world." Micah 5:3, 4

I guess my question here is : what does this last verse mean? It sounds like after Jesus is born and finishes His work on the cross..That he will be highly honored and that the people will live Undisturbed?

To me that sounds like he's building up his kingdom as we speak. But perhaps I'm reading into wrong.

I wouldn't have noticed this on my own---only when the pastor pointed it out. Maybe therein lies the danger of not taking the Bible literally, too many interpretations.
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OK, Allie, lets see what we can do with your thoughts.

Micah 5 is not a support of a post millennial view. Micah, and we know this by considering real history is speaking about the impending Babylonian invasion. The nation is being urged to prepare itself militarily because a siege is coming and the king will be removed from them.

"The judge of Israel who will be smitten with a rod upon the cheek" should not be misconstrued to be a referrance to the humiliation of the Lord Jesus. Jesus was never smitten in any military siege neither was He smitten with rod neither by Gentiles.

Now for Micah 5:3-4.............
IMO the verse is best understood as a reference to the rejection that Messiah Jesus will and did receive in the days of His earthly ministry. Had The Israel of Messiah's day not rejected Him, then this prophecy would have been frustreated just as though he were born in some other place other than Bethlelem of Judah or not born at all.

"She which travaileth" can then be understood both generally and specifically.

Generally it is to the nation of Israel which travailed until the Messiah was born.(Rev. 12).
Specifically it is to the Virgin Mary who physically travailed for the physical birth of the Messiah.

Now then....verse #4 "And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the Lord In the majesty of the name of the Lord his God", pictures the Messiah coming to the earth to set up His 1000 year Kingdom.

So then the flow of the Scriptures is.............
#1 in verse 2 predicting the coming of the Messiah,
#2 in verse 3 is the prediction of His rejection;
#3 in verse 4 predicts His exaltation.

The one born in verse 2 is then rejected in verse 3 and in verse 4 becomes the Great Shepard.

Verses 5 and following are what the prophet sees the coming of the Messiah to set up His Kingdom will mean for the nation of Israel over which He shall rule.
 
AllieWi said:
And here in Isaiah verse 7-- ESTABLISHING AND UPHOLDING His kingdom.

What do you guys make of this verse? And can you dispute this scripture as further proof of a Postmillenial return?

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. (Isaiah 9:6, 7 KJV)

I apologize if it's not ok to ask you to try and refute this--- my wording may not be correct. I'm just trying to learn I'm not claiming to know the truth. I'm truth-seeking. :)
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There is no disputing needed.

That verse does not confirm a post-millennial view Allie.

It is what the nation will be experiencing during the 1000 year rule of Christ.
 
Major said:
Honestly Allie, I am not going to invest an hour on his video. What I will do is respond to the questions you have concerning what was said.

If you want to, list 1 (One) question, and the Bible verse that was used and we can discuss your questions one at a time.
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I did break down and watch it. Not a lot of scripture or getting to any point. I don't think I would watch part two in hopes that He actually starts going line upon line. He does tell lots of stories.

I have no judgements, just not my style of teaching. I use scriptures to tell stories or about things that happened.

Blessings.
 
MichaelH said:
I did break down and watch it. Not a lot of scripture or getting to any point. I don't think I would watch part two in hopes that He actually starts going line upon line. He does tell lots of stories.

I have no judgements, just not my style of teaching. I use scriptures to tell stories or about things that happened.

Blessings.
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He Definitely does go line by line in his preaching sometimes. But yes I don't expect you to do that at all-- I only posted it because I was curious about your guys opinions because you seem to know the Word very well. I appreciate your time.
 
AllieWi said:
He Definitely does go line by line in his preaching sometimes. But yes I don't expect you to do that at all-- I only posted it because I was curious about your guys opinions because you seem to know the Word very well. I appreciate your time.
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that must be in Part two then where He uses scriptures. He spent most of Part 1 explaining why His position is correct with stories.

The view is of a optimistic outcome for Earth. We keep preaching the Word, more get saved. It's very close to a preterist view, not exactly.

We want a optimistic outcome. The Kingdom of God is now on the Earth, Power is here now. Thing is, Jesus said pray the Fathers will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. God does not have one will for Earth, and one for Heaven. He has no sickness in Heaven and not his will for sickness on Earth.

However, Jesus would not say pray that if it did not need prayed and enforced by the Body of Christ now on Earth. It's Clear lots of things happen in the Word that is not pleasing to God or His will.

Also the Word is like a sword, it will draw and it will piss people off really bad. So the thought that More Word preached converts everyone is not going to happen. What it will do is reach the corners of the globe and those that have ears to hear and believe will be spared.

The rest is going to have to face the Trumpets, Seals, and the worse at the end Vials. Then they will see the sun be put out, the Stars vanish with great earth Quakes. A brilliant light will spread across the sky supernaturally seen by every eye and Jesus coming to set down, full of Glory. Those here try to hide once the sun is put out (Rev 6) they don't want to face the Wrath of the Lamb.

This is the part the guy in the video has problems with.

Blessings.
 
Yes how do postmillenialists view Revelation, I wonder? Weird.

Hank Hanegraaf is of this view as well which is a little disappointing because I have listened to him a lot.

But the Word of God is NEVER disappointing to me!!!

I'm going to read through the Old Testament and pray that God would show me what I need to see:)
 
AllieWi said:
Yes how do postmillenialists view Revelation, I wonder? Weird.

Hank Hanegraaf is of this view as well which is a little disappointing because I have listened to him a lot.

But the Word of God is NEVER disappointing to me!!!

I'm going to read through the Old Testament and pray that God would show me what I need to see:)
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I am just going to believe it's God giving you this interest in End time Stuff.

I believe in that pre milliimummm view, however you spell that. To the Point that the Kingdom of God is NOW here. You should study that out, because once you find what Jesus paid for and what the Kingdom did by coming to earth you would be laying hands on folks and being used to get them healed. (Not everyone receives, and not everyone responds to the call to get saved either)

Any Teaching about Jesus being here and in charge (He is the head and High priest) without power is off and missing something.


Here I get excited. Jesus said................. Thy Kingdom Come, they will be done.

If we could just understand this as it was originally written. The Kingdom did come............

Kingdom: Basileia (Greek Female Noun)
1) royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
1a) not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom

Kingdom is not a place. It's the right to step along side God and big brother with authority and power given to rule besides.

Parable of talents:
And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
(Luk 19:11-13)

They were expecting this ruler-ship to come in Jesus time. Jesus said its like He gave his servants gifts, then Left. We Occupy till He comes back.

He has not come back yet.
However His name and authority we have here on Earth as He is High priest and Head of the Church. We occupy until he returns.

Luk_17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

We make up the leadership of God's Kingdom (right to rule) on earth.

The power to heal the sick, and perform signs come with that authority in Jesus.

Luk_10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

If it's not God's will to Heal everyone, then Jesus lied about the Kingdom coming.

Ah, but the rest of the prayer.

Thy Kingdom Come, thy will be done, on earth AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

Where we don't speak, take up what was given to us, then the Will of God is not enforced on earth. We have been given keys to this Kingdom and God does not have two different wills. One for Earth and One for Heaven. God has ONE WILL.

How many Wheelchairs in Heaven? How many people being evicted in Heaven for not being able to afford rent? Does heaven have a shady part of town that is not safe?

Act_3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

What did Peter have? He had been given the Kingdom and authority to enforce the will of God on earth, with the Name of Jesus.

How anyone does not get excited about this is beyond me. One reason I hate all forms of unbelief and doubt because it's the devil that came to steal, Kill and destroy.

Mat_16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

We have been given the keys to unlock all of God's resources in heaven to be enforced here for the Kingdom of God on earth. The Power of the Holy Spirit, the Eternal Word of God and a host of angels that are servants to the heirs of Grace. We have a high priest over our confessions. What more do we need?


Blessings.
 
MichaelH said:
I am just going to believe it's God giving you this interest in End time Stuff.

I believe in that pre milliimummm view, however you spell that. To the Point that the Kingdom of God is NOW here. You should study that out, because once you find what Jesus paid for and what the Kingdom did by coming to earth you would be laying hands on folks and being used to get them healed. (Not everyone receives, and not everyone responds to the call to get saved either)

Any Teaching about Jesus being here and in charge (He is the head and High priest) without power is off and missing something.


Here I get excited. Jesus said................. Thy Kingdom Come, they will be done.

If we could just understand this as it was originally written. The Kingdom did come............

Kingdom: Basileia (Greek Female Noun)
1) royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
1a) not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom

Kingdom is not a place. It's the right to step along side God and big brother with authority and power given to rule besides.

Parable of talents:
And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
(Luk 19:11-13)

They were expecting this ruler-ship to come in Jesus time. Jesus said its like He gave his servants gifts, then Left. We Occupy till He comes back.

He has not come back yet.
However His name and authority we have here on Earth as He is High priest and Head of the Church. We occupy until he returns.

Luk_17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

We make up the leadership of God's Kingdom (right to rule) on earth.

The power to heal the sick, and perform signs come with that authority in Jesus.

Luk_10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

If it's not God's will to Heal everyone, then Jesus lied about the Kingdom coming.

Ah, but the rest of the prayer.

Thy Kingdom Come, thy will be done, on earth AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

Where we don't speak, take up what was given to us, then the Will of God is not enforced on earth. We have been given keys to this Kingdom and God does not have two different wills. One for Earth and One for Heaven. God has ONE WILL.

How many Wheelchairs in Heaven? How many people being evicted in Heaven for not being able to afford rent? Does heaven have a shady part of town that is not safe?

Act_3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

What did Peter have? He had been given the Kingdom and authority to enforce the will of God on earth, with the Name of Jesus.

How anyone does not get excited about this is beyond me. One reason I hate all forms of unbelief and doubt because it's the devil that came to steal, Kill and destroy.

Mat_16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

We have been given the keys to unlock all of God's resources in heaven to be enforced here for the Kingdom of God on earth. The Power of the Holy Spirit, the Eternal Word of God and a host of angels that are servants to the heirs of Grace. We have a high priest over our confessions. What more do we need?


Blessings.
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Honestly I do not have a preoccupation with end times stuff. My interest is linked to hearing this new view and then that sparked the questions of whether it truly matters. Also, I had just finished a cd series on revelation by a Calvary church when I first attended the church with the post-mil beliefs. It was weird. The first service I went to was about the eschaton.

But yea it's definitely a truth mission for me which I realize is only revealed as God sees fit. I'm just curious.

Thanks for the info--- I agree that it's not the "when" it's the "WOW HES COMING BACK AND IM SO EXCITED" that matters to me:)
 
AllieWi said:
Honestly I do not have a preoccupation with end times stuff. My interest is linked to hearing this new view and then that sparked the questions of whether it truly matters. Also, I had just finished a cd series on revelation by a Calvary church when I first attended the church with the post-mil beliefs. It was weird. The first service I went to was about the eschaton.

But yea it's definitely a truth mission for me which I realize is only revealed as God sees fit. I'm just curious.

Thanks for the info--- I agree that it's not the "when" it's the "WOW HES COMING BACK AND IM SO EXCITED" that matters to me:)
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Amen Sister. If he came back now though, the loss would be to great. And the gospel shall be preached all over the World, then the end comes.
 
I watched the video but to be truthful, he didn't say anything much. And I didn't disagree with alot of what he said, except that he ignores a lot of scripture, including the whole book of Revelation. To say that we are now in Christ's millenial kingdom, would be to say that the wickedness we see around us is our imagination. He ignores Christ's own words that he is coming again. He construes as pessimism that Christ gave signs that would announce His 2nd coming - wars and rumors of wars, bad weather, etc. That is not pessimism and "no reason" to fight - it is following scripture. In the video I saw, he gives no scripture that I can see that supports post millenialism. Maybe I missed it. He tosses alot of names around, as men of God, who agree and disagree but as has been noted already - none that support his view. He says that eschatology matters but then says we should ignore a lot of others scripture. I thank God, that at least he knows other thinking on this matter so he won't be completely blindsided when it happens. And I don't know when it will happen but my gut tells me we are close. But, in the end, I don't have a problem with hanging tight to our faith in God. We should avoid giving our money/life savings to people who claim they need it - for what? I really agree that we have to go by scripture - I just don't see that he is, entirely. Like MichaelH - I like his optimism.

And Major - sometimes watching a video is time well spent. You'd have liked it - He disses the mormons and JW's. :)
 
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