Prayer and God's Will

BibleLover

BibleLover

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I have a question with which someone here might share a perspective and perhaps some wisdom. How can we understand the relationship between prayer and accomplishment of God's will?

Allow me to elaborate. During my Christian growth, I've learned what it means that the just shall live by faith. In other words we are to conduct every aspect of daily life through the filter of faith. Knowing this I've learned to relax, stay close to God, and be alert to the circumstances and opportunities as they occur around me. God has planned everything, and I must only be alert to accomplish things. That's what God means by the steps of a good man are guided by God.

Here is my quandary. We know that NOTHING or NO ONE can foil the plans of God, so how does prayer affect God's predestined purpose?

One thing I want to clarify is that on a personal level, prayer is a vital communication medium for maintaining a relationship with God and accomplishing Christian maturity.

My question deals more with prayer as a means of affecting circumstances than as a tool for staying close to God.

Blessings to all and thanks for your thoughts.
 
There are many questions in this category.

My view is you must decide whether you are considering things from God's point of view, which is omniscient knowing what and where each every atom has been/will be from Genesis 1:1 thru the everlasting we look forward to seeing all as an undivided whole, or are we considerling man's point of view, which is an ordered series of discreate moments, the future being darkly anticipated while the past (in our memories) is growing dim.

The Lord can already be preparing an answer to the prayer I pray tomorrow. His view was not changed by my request. My view is that I choose to pray by my own will and gained His answer as His response.

Look from man's point of view ans we have free will. Looking from God's we see predestination and eternal security.

It makes no sense to describe events from man's point of view and then switch to God's point of view and say His actions were in anyway constrained by my choice.
 
Affecting circumstances like how?
Can you give an example?

I don't know if you mean 'can I change God's mind'? Because we don't know what God already had in mind until we ask Him. But surely He has thought of it all way ahead of us.

For example Abraham famously bargained with God about destroying Sodom and Gomorrah. He already was going to do it and we saw that He did it...but Abraham was just asking how many it would take to spare the towns. He got down to just 10 righteous people. But God knew ahead of time how many righteous there were already.

So we can't say that Abraham swayed God or made him change His mind about that. If Abraham had his wits about him and could name ten righteous people and then said to God well I know so and so etc then MAYBE Sodom and Gomorrah would have been spared but it wasn't! Lot and his wife and his daughters only made...4 people.
 
we are told that men ought to pray and faint not our part is to pray sometimes that is hard to understand. i feel that sometimes prayer is to condition us . paul had a thorn in the flesh a messenger of satan sent to buffet him... he asked God 3 times to remove it. reply my grace is sufficient.. we know also his ways and our ways are not the same. some things are hard to accept. prayer can change things
 
BibleLover said:
I have a question with which someone here might share a perspective and perhaps some wisdom. How can we understand the relationship between prayer and accomplishment of God's will?

Allow me to elaborate. During my Christian growth, I've learned what it means that the just shall live by faith. In other words we are to conduct every aspect of daily life through the filter of faith. Knowing this I've learned to relax, stay close to God, and be alert to the circumstances and opportunities as they occur around me. God has planned everything, and I must only be alert to accomplish things. That's what God means by the steps of a good man are guided by God.

Here is my quandary. We know that NOTHING or NO ONE can foil the plans of God, so how does prayer affect God's predestined purpose?

One thing I want to clarify is that on a personal level, prayer is a vital communication medium for maintaining a relationship with God and accomplishing Christian maturity.

My question deals more with prayer as a means of affecting circumstances than as a tool for staying close to God.

Blessings to all and thanks for your thoughts.
Click to expand...

A great C. S. Lewis quote on the topic:.........

"Praying for particular things," said I, "always seems to me like advising God how to run the world. Wouldn't it be wiser to assume that He knows best?"
"On the same principle", said he, "I suppose you never ask a man next to you to pass the salt, because God knows best whether you ought to have salt or not. And I suppose you never take an umbrella, because God knows whether you ought to be wet or dry."
"That's quite different," I protested.
"I don't see why," said he. "The odd thing is that He should let us influence the course of events at all. But since he lets us do it in one way I don't see why He shouldn't let us do it in the other."
(C. S. Lewis, God in the Dock)
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Source: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/374/what-is-the-purpose-of-prayer

  1. Prayer is more than just asking for things. Prayer is communication with God which involves both talking to God and listening to him. As our primary form of communication with God, it reinforces in us our relationship with him in all its forms.
  2. Prayer does include asking for specific outcomes. There are far too many examples to ignore: Abraham conversing with God over Sodom and Gomorrah, David pleading for Bathsheba's son, Hannah praying for a child, even Jesus praying that the cup be taken from him. God wants us to ask for things, even though he doesn't always give us what we ask for.
  3. (Here's where it gets a bit controversial) God can and does "change his mind". My favorite example of this is Exodus 32, the story of the Golden Calf. Briefly, God tells Moses he is going to destroy the Israelites, but relents when Moses pleads with him not to. This is the classic definition of intercession: Moses stands between Israel and God and intervenes on their behalf.
And also...........God says NO!
 
Major said:
  1. (Here's where it gets a bit controversial) God can and does "change his mind". My favorite example of this is Exodus 32, the story of the Golden Calf. Briefly, God tells Moses he is going to destroy the Israelites, but relents when Moses pleads with him not to. This is the classic definition of intercession: Moses stands between Israel and God and intervenes on their behalf.
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Hi Major,
A fundamental thought I have held for a very long time is that Time was created when the Universe was created. This is even reflected in my avatar on this site. God stands outside of time (since time is a creation of His) and He is not constrained by it. But man is part of God's creation and we do and will always be creatures of time. This means the while we perceive a sequence of moments, God looks at all of time as a unit.

ln my view, God did not change His mind in Exodus. What He did was speak to Moses in terms Moses could grasp. What He was saying was that if the Israelites used their free will to stray away from the exclusive worship of God, the result would be disastrous for the children of Israel. In my opinion God is never surprised by anything that happens in creation, nor does he change his mind.

In Exodus, God was telling Moses and God's people in the point of view of those people what His response would be to their disobedience.

By talking with Moses in the point of view of Moses and his people, God made it clear the importance of following the Lord God.

I am at a loss to imagine how god could have been as effective in making His point if the only spoke according to His point of view, which would never be man's.
 
Siloam said:
Hi Major,
A fundamental thought I have held for a very long time is that Time was created when the Universe was created. This is even reflected in my avatar on this site. God stands outside of time (since time is a creation of His) and He is not constrained by it. But man is part of God's creation and we do and will always be creatures of time. This means the while we perceive a sequence of moments, God looks at all of time as a unit.

ln my view, God did not change His mind in Exodus. What He did was speak to Moses in terms Moses could grasp. What He was saying was that if the Israelites used their free will to stray away from the exclusive worship of God, the result would be disastrous for the children of Israel. In my opinion God is never surprised by anything that happens in creation, nor does he change his mind.

In Exodus, God was telling Moses and God's people in the point of view of those people what His response would be to their disobedience.

By talking with Moses in the point of view of Moses and his people, God made it clear the importance of following the Lord God.

I am at a loss to imagine how god could have been as effective in making His point if the only spoke according to His point of view, which would never be man's.
Click to expand...

Good thought and truth be known, that is way beyound my pay grade.

After you mentioned Time being created when the universe was created does make sense to me. When we start to talk about BILLIONS of years ago.......my mind goes blank. It just does not compute.

Now about God changing His mind.

Exodus 32:14 ....
“So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.”

Then in Amos 7:3 we see,,,,,,,,,
“The Lord changed His mind about this. ‘It shall not be,’ said the Lord.”

Could it be that those Scriptures are describing God’s attitude changing. Not changing His mind because events have caught Him off guard, but because now this aspect of His character is more fitting to express than it was earlier.

Do you think that the process of Anthropomorphic language can be at play here to show the human emotions and actions like pity, regret, sorrow, remembering, and resting. It seems to me that God may be His conveying the eternal aspects of Himself, concepts that are vastly beyond our comprehension, in relatable human-like descriptions.
 
Major said:
Do you think that the process of Anthropomorphic language can be at play here to show the human emotions and actions like pity, regret, sorrow, remembering, and resting. It seems to me that God may be His conveying the eternal aspects of Himself, concepts that are vastly beyond our comprehension, in relatable human-like descriptions.
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Absolutely! Can you picture in your mind God describing Himself to men as "I am ..." followed by innumerable words that exactly convey His nature. The problem being that an exact portrayal of His nature would consist of words we had never encountered since God is actually unlike anything we ever encounter apart from Him.

But, He can and does place things that are analogous to His nature all around us.

... Brings to mind a song by Carroll Roberson that is on an album my wife likes to play. A line goes something like:

"In a mothers wrinkled hand and a father as a gentle man I see God every where".
 
Siloam said:
Absolutely! Can you picture in your mind God describing Himself to men as "I am ..." followed by innumerable words that exactly convey His nature. The problem being that an exact portrayal of His nature would consist of words we had never encountered since God is actually unlike anything we ever encounter apart from Him.

But, He can and does place things that are analogous to His nature all around us.

... Brings to mind a song by Carroll Roberson that is on an album my wife likes to play. A line goes something like:

"In a mothers wrinkled hand and a father as a gentle man I see God every where".
Click to expand...

Yes sir. Agreed!

I can imagine that when He told Moses that his name was the "Great I am........", Moses said, sure---and I am Peter Pan!(LOL).
 
This business of God changing His mind and being eternal just doesn't fit.
Two examples for how it is resolved in my mind...
1. Telling Hezekiah he is going to die and then letting him live.
God is the creator of laws. The law of life and death, we have life in us and it diminishes as opposing forces (cancer) take over. During Hezekiah's day they didn't understand what was killing them, as in stages of cancer, so according to the law Hezekiah was done... So God's first messages to Hezekiah was for information purposes. Then Hezekiah's prayer, which the Lord planned for His purposes elicited the implementation of a higher law - so Hezekiah was granted another 15 years.
2. Joshua's command 'sun stand still'.
The law of planetary function - basic law.
The elicitation (for God's glory) of Joshua's command, a higher law to over ride the basic law.

So God doesn't change His mind but He has a purpose for our prayers, which we don't 'fully' understand at this point, but what must serve in the eternal perspective somehow.
 
Again I apologize for my abbreviated replies due to the fact that everything happens from my phone - which is more labor intensive...
 
2404 said:
This business of God changing His mind and being eternal just doesn't fit.
Two examples for how it is resolved in my mind...
1. Telling Hezekiah he is going to die and then letting him live.
God is the creator of laws. The law of life and death, we have life in us and it diminishes as opposing forces (cancer) take over. During Hezekiah's day they didn't understand what was killing them, as in stages of cancer, so according to the law Hezekiah was done... So God's first messages to Hezekiah was for information purposes. Then Hezekiah's prayer, which the Lord planned for His purposes elicited the implementation of a higher law - so Hezekiah was granted another 15 years.
2. Joshua's command 'sun stand still'.
The law of planetary function - basic law.
The elicitation (for God's glory) of Joshua's command, a higher law to over ride the basic law.

So God doesn't change His mind but He has a purpose for our prayers, which we don't 'fully' understand at this point, but what must serve in the eternal perspective somehow.
Click to expand...

What we can not deny from the Scriptures is that the words were written.

Exodus 32:14 ....
“So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.”

Then in Amos 7:3 we see,,,,,,,,,
“The Lord changed His mind about this. ‘It shall not be,’ said the Lord.”

What we must now do is to correctly grasp what the writer was trying to say because he really did not know what he was saying.

When those words are written it is always about "Judgment".

From humanity's point of view God's mind was changed but God had known all along what would happen. Moses prayed for mercy and God answered his prayer. When we read each situation in the Scripture, we see that the change was not with God but with humanity. When the conduct of humanity changed towards God, the conduct of God appeared to change toward humankind. Yet God was consistent in His behavior all along.
 
BibleLover said:
I have a question with which someone here might share a perspective and perhaps some wisdom. How can we understand the relationship between prayer and accomplishment of God's will?

Allow me to elaborate. During my Christian growth, I've learned what it means that the just shall live by faith. In other words we are to conduct every aspect of daily life through the filter of faith. Knowing this I've learned to relax, stay close to God, and be alert to the circumstances and opportunities as they occur around me. God has planned everything, and I must only be alert to accomplish things. That's what God means by the steps of a good man are guided by God.

Here is my quandary. We know that NOTHING or NO ONE can foil the plans of God, so how does prayer affect God's predestined purpose?

One thing I want to clarify is that on a personal level, prayer is a vital communication medium for maintaining a relationship with God and accomplishing Christian maturity.

My question deals more with prayer as a means of affecting circumstances than as a tool for staying close to God.

Blessings to all and thanks for your thoughts.
Click to expand...

I will answer about prayer, but first want to make an expression clear. "The just shall live by faith." Because of the NT use of this line, I don't think it has to do with general daily life. Another rendering puts it more in the category of all the things Paul said about justification, by rendering "Those who are righteous by faith will live." It is meant to distinguish between 'righteous by the Law' vs 'righteous by faith'. 'To live' then means to be justified from our sins. It is an important quote in Romans and Galatians, but I don't recall another NT location, and so I'm inclined to go with the things that matter in Romans and Galatians.

I don't know if God wants us to figure out sovereignty, but perhaps Aslan's guidance to Lucy is helpful here: "Things never happen the same way twice." We can certainly pray for the most beneficial outcome to God's kingdom and the spread of his mission in all situations, and know that we were very close to the mark.

In the range of 'proof' of Christian faith, there are many astounding things in Scripture. Proof of what had taken place in the Gospel event was mentioned 6x by Peter in 15-odd verses. But we all know the modern mindset, that they would like to know that there is something that matters now. This is a good reason to pray; to ask for things to happen without any human planning or intervention or fund-raising, to show to someone new in our contact or new to the faith, that God is there and he does accomplish things today that we would call signs and wonders, not to hook people into a constant stream of them, but to show Himself.

I think it is then good to 'petition' God by keeping a list of things asked for, although our prayer should not be limited to just asking for things. There is to be worship and declaration in it too. But somethings will be asked for like daily food, and when there is a provision, there needs to be a record of that, so you can show people who doubt.

For ex., I am in an isolated area in Alaska and have prob heard 5x times that you can't get Ivermectin for covid. When it came time to ask, I mentioned it to a cousin in WA who overnighted a 10 pack. But the day it was supposed to come (it was late), we learned some unusual news, that in this town there was an apothecary. As you may know an apothecary is both a pharmacy but also has a license to free-lance mixtures and encapsulate them. Well, when we prayed to find Ivermectin quickly, we were told to check for a small farm that might have small amounts of this or that and mix them (you may recall that HCQ is called a veterinarian medicine). But the person didn't understand the climate here, and we didn't know the technical meaning of an apothecary. It was quite exciting then, to call the apothecary and ask them if they had either Ivermectin or HCQ and it turned out they had quite a stock, yet anyone I had talked to in a group here that meets regularly to contend for medical freedoms didn't know!

But the story is not over because HCQ was available from a friend, and after 3 of those 12 hours apart each, I was doing very well. The fact is there are vast amounts of fear pedaled to the world in this covid episode and people don't realize how inspiring some of these (apothecary) type stories are! 'Before you call, I will answer' says the Lord.
 
I think trusting that God is always looking after you in times of doubt and praying through that fear helps us....even when things from our perspective look bleak.

I once was riding in the ute and told my sceptic boss how bout I praying for a car park cos that is something that always made him angry when he couldn't get one.

So I prayed and sure enough one was free right where we wanted (outside the pie shop!) Praise the Lord!
 
Decoder said:
I will answer about prayer, but first want to make an expression clear. "The just shall live by faith." Because of the NT use of this line, I don't think it has to do with general daily life. Another rendering puts it more in the category of all the things Paul said about justification, by rendering "Those who are righteous by faith will live." It is meant to distinguish between 'righteous by the Law' vs 'righteous by faith'. 'To live' then means to be justified from our sins. It is an important quote in Romans and Galatians, but I don't recall another NT location, and so I'm inclined to go with the things that matter in Romans and Galatians.

I don't know if God wants us to figure out sovereignty, but perhaps Aslan's guidance to Lucy is helpful here: "Things never happen the same way twice." We can certainly pray for the most beneficial outcome to God's kingdom and the spread of his mission in all situations, and know that we were very close to the mark.

In the range of 'proof' of Christian faith, there are many astounding things in Scripture. Proof of what had taken place in the Gospel event was mentioned 6x by Peter in 15-odd verses. But we all know the modern mindset, that they would like to know that there is something that matters now. This is a good reason to pray; to ask for things to happen without any human planning or intervention or fund-raising, to show to someone new in our contact or new to the faith, that God is there and he does accomplish things today that we would call signs and wonders, not to hook people into a constant stream of them, but to show Himself.

I think it is then good to 'petition' God by keeping a list of things asked for, although our prayer should not be limited to just asking for things. There is to be worship and declaration in it too. But somethings will be asked for like daily food, and when there is a provision, there needs to be a record of that, so you can show people who doubt.

For ex., I am in an isolated area in Alaska and have prob heard 5x times that you can't get Ivermectin for covid. When it came time to ask, I mentioned it to a cousin in WA who overnighted a 10 pack. But the day it was supposed to come (it was late), we learned some unusual news, that in this town there was an apothecary. As you may know an apothecary is both a pharmacy but also has a license to free-lance mixtures and encapsulate them. Well, when we prayed to find Ivermectin quickly, we were told to check for a small farm that might have small amounts of this or that and mix them (you may recall that HCQ is called a veterinarian medicine). But the person didn't understand the climate here, and we didn't know the technical meaning of an apothecary. It was quite exciting then, to call the apothecary and ask them if they had either Ivermectin or HCQ and it turned out they had quite a stock, yet anyone I had talked to in a group here that meets regularly to contend for medical freedoms didn't know!

But the story is not over because HCQ was available from a friend, and after 3 of those 12 hours apart each, I was doing very well. The fact is there are vast amounts of fear pedaled to the world in this covid episode and people don't realize how inspiring some of these (apothecary) type stories are! 'Before you call, I will answer' says the Lord.
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I wonder if you would agree that Prayer is a way that we can come to understand our purpose in this life and God’s plan for us. Through prayer, the answers we receive, and our willingness to act on them, we change. Our desires change.
 
Major said:
I wonder if you would agree that Prayer is a way that we can come to understand our purpose in this life and God’s plan for us. Through prayer, the answers we receive, and our willingness to act on them, we change. Our desires change.
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Prayer is often brining our desires into alignment with God's will rather than bending God's will to our own.

Answers often require us to see beyond our circumstance.
 
Prayer and God's will great topic bc I think too many BELIEVERS spend too little time in prayer.
This makes weak christians!

As has been said prayer is our communication between us and the Father. Jesus plainly said he came to do the Father's will yet he also said thinkest thou not that I can not call 10,000 angels and not have to suffer.

We must find and stay in God's will and be Willing to walk in it,another problem I've found with BELIEVERS who always whine against God. If YOU'RE pulling against the cart, YOU are not moving forward!
James 5:13-16
Tells us how to seek for what we need, ANY afflicted? Let HIM PRAY. it doesnt say have others pray for you ONLY.
Any merry? Let HIM sing psalms...songs that uplift.
Any sick,call the elders,let them anoint with oil and pray over him in the Lord's name.
15.And the PRAYER OF FAITH shall save the sick and the LORD shall raise him up; and IF he has committed sins,they shall be forgiven him.
(Many are the afflictions of the righteous some we bring on ourselves bc of unrepentant sins)
16 CONFESS your faults ( weakness) one to another,that ye may be healed.
The effectual ( doing something,changing the person and God's mind) feverent ( on fire,passiont with empathy,sympathy and compassion) of a righteous man ( we have to have all under the blood to have a fruitful prayer life) availeth much.....(can change more than we ask,be beyond our limits)

Awesome thought provoking topic,I hope it doesn't fizzle as so many great threads do.
 
Siloam said:
Hi Major,
A fundamental thought I have held for a very long time is that Time was created when the Universe was created. This is even reflected in my avatar on this site. God stands outside of time (since time is a creation of His) and He is not constrained by it. But man is part of God's creation and we do and will always be creatures of time. This means the while we perceive a sequence of moments, God looks at all of time as a unit.

ln my view, God did not change His mind in Exodus. What He did was speak to Moses in terms Moses could grasp. What He was saying was that if the Israelites used their free will to stray away from the exclusive worship of God, the result would be disastrous for the children of Israel. In my opinion God is never surprised by anything that happens in creation, nor does he change his mind.

In Exodus, God was telling Moses and God's people in the point of view of those people what His response would be to their disobedience.

By talking with Moses in the point of view of Moses and his people, God made it clear the importance of following the Lord God.

I am at a loss to imagine how god could have been as effective in making His point if the only spoke according to His point of view, which would never be man's.
Click to expand...



I'm sorry but I disagree with you pov.
You're saying it's all pre-planned ( predestined), and God just lets ignorant man blunder all over by his free will....which I'm not sure you believe in.....and still falls into his plan?

It cannot be both! He does not predestine some to walk his way and others against his way.

I do agree he knows everything from start to finish who will and who won't, but he gave his only begotten son that ALL may!

God said it repented him that he had made man,he changes his mind many times in scripture and who knows he may again before the end. He is NOT SET, for he is God and can do as he wishes. We try to LIMIT him by our finite thinking.

We are to follow God,not a man made thought or interpretation. The WORD is the light and lamp unto our feet,not man!
 
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