Pre Flood

[Major]

Major not all are so inflexible with the young earth’s creationists claim of 6000 yrs. We could go 7000 yrs or 8000 yrs or even stretch the possibility to 10:000 yrs at the max. But your not promoting flexibility when you claim old age earth doctrine because your claiming unprovable ages of millions of yrs. If we go with your proposal along with the dinosaurs not roaming our Adamic world but becoming extinct some 60 to 70 million years prior. Than death did not originate in our world through Adam & Eve. And it weakens immensely the salvation message of the gospel of a mere 7 -10,000 yrs ago when compared to the vast ages of 70 million yrs of death prior to the biblical account Which begs the question. Did all those bygone ages have a redeemer too ??? Or was it just 70 million yrs of continuous conflict and destruction???

Dear Prim.......I do not think that "The only way to understand this situation is to lean toward the Old Earth belief."...is a statement of un-flexability. When reading my post, I think you will see IMHO!

As I stated, this topic will certainly bring in the Old Eart vs. the Young Earth theology and that is what is happening.

It comes down to Bible against science every single time. I am not say that YOU are but many believers view the scientific world with skepticism, believing that it is at heart an attempt to discredit faith in God.

May I say to you that In Romans 5:12–21, and in the Bible generally, death does not have an exclusively biological meaning.

In verses 12–14, thanatos is defined as a divine judgment upon all mankind for Adam’s transgression as the covenant head of humanity. In verse 21, death is contrasted with eternal life – which, everyone will agree, is not really a biological concept at all. Paul undoubtedly developed his theological understanding of death as divine judgment upon human sin from the Genesis creation account, where God warned Adam and Eve that “in the day that you eat of the tree you will surely die” (Genesis 2:16).

Yet they did not die biologically “in the day” that they ate of the tree. They lived another 930 years so death was not instant but put off.

Nevertheless, the divine judgment of death was executed against man, as shown symbolically in the removal of Adam and Eve from the garden, that they might not eat of the tree of life (Genesis 3:22–24). Certainly, this divine judgment included the physical cessation of biological life (Genesis 3:19), but it cannot be limited to that so to use Romans explanation of death was only AFTER the fall just does not work!

Also...please consider that In addition to misinterpreting thanatos, those who appeal to Romans 5:12 to deny pre-Fall animal death, must also assume a certain preselected definition of kosmos or world.

The world into which sin and death entered is assumed to be the creation as a whole, including the non-human realm. But this is not the meaning that Paul seems to have in view in the context.

For example, in verse 13, Paul says,........
“Before the Law, sin was in the kosmos.”

But sin cannot be “in the non-human realm.”

It is more likely that the term kosmos here refers to the world of humanity—a common usage of the term with which we are already familiar in John 3:16: ......"For God so loved the kosmos, that he gave his only begotten Son.”

In fact, Paul uses the phrase “all men” in the second clause of Romans 5:12 as a synonym for “world” (and again in verse 18).

 

[Prim90]

Dear Prim.......I do not think that "The only way to understand this situation is to lean toward the Old Earth belief."...is a statement of un-flexability. When reading my post, I think you will see IMHO!

As I stated, this topic will certainly bring in the Old Eart vs. the Young Earth theology and that is what is happening.

It comes down to Bible against science every single time. I am not say that YOU are but many believers view the scientific world with skepticism, believing that it is at heart an attempt to discredit faith in God.

May I say to you that In Romans 5:12–21, and in the Bible generally, death does not have an exclusively biological meaning.

In verses 12–14, thanatos is defined as a divine judgment upon all mankind for Adam’s transgression as the covenant head of humanity. In verse 21, death is contrasted with eternal life – which, everyone will agree, is not really a biological concept at all. Paul undoubtedly developed his theological understanding of death as divine judgment upon human sin from the Genesis creation account, where God warned Adam and Eve that “in the day that you eat of the tree you will surely die” (Genesis 2:16).

Yet they did not die biologically “in the day” that they ate of the tree. They lived another 930 years so death was not instant but put off.

Nevertheless, the divine judgment of death was executed against man, as shown symbolically in the removal of Adam and Eve from the garden, that they might not eat of the tree of life (Genesis 3:22–24). Certainly, this divine judgment included the physical cessation of biological life (Genesis 3:19), but it cannot be limited to that so to use Romans explanation of death was only AFTER the fall just does not work!

Also...please consider that In addition to misinterpreting thanatos, those who appeal to Romans 5:12 to deny pre-Fall animal death, must also assume a certain preselected definition of kosmos or world.

The world into which sin and death entered is assumed to be the creation as a whole, including the non-human realm. But this is not the meaning that Paul seems to have in view in the context.

For example, in verse 13, Paul says,........
“Before the Law, sin was in the kosmos.”

But sin cannot be “in the non-human realm.”

It is more likely that the term kosmos here refers to the world of humanity—a common usage of the term with which we are already familiar in John 3:16: ......"For God so loved the kosmos, that he gave his only begotten Son.”

In fact, Paul uses the phrase “all men” in the second clause of Romans 5:12 as a synonym for “world” (and again in verse 18).

The Major I hope you much well. When you write IMHO. After closer scrutiny meaning ( In my humble opinion ) I was not familiar with your initialism but now me fully understand . . Major you write very much about Romans 5:12 - 21. You mention the Greek word Thanatos. Its original concept coming from the Greek legend where Thanatos is called Night and his brother Hypnos is called Sleep who both lived in Tartarus the reason the Strongs concordance merely reads literally death. But more detailed dictionaries bring forth other examples such as metaphorical meanings such as the personification of death and other meanings such as spiritual death . . Major you place much emphasis on Gods warning to Adam & Eve from Genesis 2:16 that they would surely die that very day should they partake from the tree of enlightenment and you lay much emphasis that they didn’t die on the very day but lived for another some 900 yrs. That in no way takes away from the fact that Adam & Eve biologically began dying from that very moment. It is self evident that God was meaning over a period of time . After all God was in the Garden. He could have killed Adam & Eve there and than if he chose on the very day they partook. But quite the opposite happens. God provides them animal skins to cover their nakedness which many refer to as the first sacrifice, Adam and Eve began immediately to die physically that day. But not spiritually their relationship with God was never fully broken. Unlike his offspring who would die both physically and spiritually until spiritually awakened and drawn and redeemed by God.. Major you than go on to contend that the young earth creationists use the term Kosmos the ( world ) wrongly in claiming that sin and death not only entered humanity by one man but also infected nature as well. I guess if they be correct that sinks the old age earth theory. But yes me see your point in that regard the word ( world ) Yes the word ( world )is often used to refer to peoples only and not just nature itself. Major me has written enough for now. The post is perhaps already too long to discuss further issues for now. Until next time . I wish you happy voting day tomorrow

 

[Mei Kor]

A while back we went to visit 'The Ark' in Kentucky. What impressed me the most was the size, and I believe they did a good job on dimensional construction. But when I went through it I was disappointed. They depicted the animals in cages with feeding and watering systems they even suggested the Ark had a ventilation system built into it. If we remember when God called His children out of Egypt their shoes did not wear out and their needs were met. I believe when God called all His creation to gather in the Ark He also sustained and looked after them. I don't believe cages were necessary and somehow the environment in the Ark was sustained. Even considering the work that it would take to operate the implied maintenance, Noah and his family would never have been able to manage it. Another point, as said the size of the ship and the weight of the materials required, no way could you have some guy with an axe and saw prep and handle those materials. I understand that the civilization during that time was highly developed and utilized 'modern means and materials' to build according to God's instruction.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
But I thought it a well worthwhile visit.
I'm interested to hear other opinions.

It is very interesting, thanks for the sharing for us who has never seen.

 

[Major]

The Major I hope you much well. When you write IMHO. After closer scrutiny meaning ( In my humble opinion ) I was not familiar with your initialism but now me fully understand . View attachment 11729. Major you write very much about Romans 5:12 - 21. You mention the Greek word Thanatos. Its original concept coming from the Greek legend where Thanatos is called Night and his brother Hypnos is called Sleep who both lived in Tartarus the reason the Strongs concordance merely reads literally death. But more detailed dictionaries bring forth other examples such as metaphorical meanings such as the personification of death and other meanings such as spiritual death . View attachment 11729. Major you place much emphasis on Gods warning to Adam & Eve from Genesis 2:16 that they would surely die that very day should they partake from the tree of enlightenment and you lay much emphasis that they didn’t die on the very day but lived for another some 900 yrs. That in no way takes away from the fact that Adam & Eve biologically began dying from that very moment. It is self evident that God was meaning over a period of time . After all God was in the Garden. He could have killed Adam & Eve there and than if he chose on the very day they partook. But quite the opposite happens. God provides them animal skins to cover their nakedness which many refer to as the first sacrifice, Adam and Eve began immediately to die physically that day. But not spiritually their relationship with God was never fully broken. Unlike his offspring who would die both physically and spiritually until spiritually awakened and drawn and redeemed by God.View attachment 11729. Major you than go on to contend that the young earth creationists use the term Kosmos the ( world ) wrongly in claiming that sin and death not only entered humanity by one man but also infected nature as well. I guess if they be correct that sinks the old age earth theory. But yes me see your point in that regard the word ( world ) Yes the word ( world )is often used to refer to peoples only and not just nature itself. Major me has written enough for now. The post is perhaps already too long to discuss further issues for now. Until next time . I wish you happy voting day tomorrow

Agreed.

Thanks for your concern. Old men just live one day to another!

The debate is that the word in Romans 5 does not mean physical death which would remove the argument of death began when Adam sinned which brought physical death into the world.

As YOU just agreed, Adam died "spiritually the moment he sinned but he lived another 930 years which means that death was not the meaning in Genesis 1 but instead he died spiritually and needed a Saviour. So his death was NOT Biological but Spiritual.

Prim....the relationship Adam and Eve has with God WAS indeed broken when they sinned. It was then that God killed animals to shed blood and make skins to cover their sin. That restored their relationship as God can not look upon sin.

Now, I honestly do not know. Young or Old earth. I can see and understand both sides. What I do know is that there are challenges on both sides which Scriptures do not address so the fact is, we are not going to know.

 

[crossnote]

Old men just live one day to another!

I used to drive taxis, and we had a saying which the above reminded me, and I liked. "Old cabbies never die, they just 'hack' away".

 

[Prim90]

Agreed.

Thanks for your concern. Old men just live one day to another!

The debate is that the word in Romans 5 does not mean physical death which would remove the argument of death began when Adam sinned which brought physical death into the world.

As YOU just agreed, Adam died "spiritually the moment he sinned but he lived another 930 years which means that death was not the meaning in Genesis 1 but instead he died spiritually and needed a Saviour. So his death was NOT Biological but Spiritual.

Prim....the relationship Adam and Eve has with God WAS indeed broken when they sinned. It was then that God killed animals to shed blood and make skins to cover their sin. That restored their relationship as God can not look upon sin.

Now, I honestly do not know. Young or Old earth. I can see and understand both sides. What I do know is that there are challenges on both sides which Scriptures do not address so the fact is, we are not going to know.

Major we certainly be agreed upon the word cosmos . ( the world ) often referring to people’s as with your reference to John 3:16 for God so loved the world and not solely meaning the environment But we certainly not be agreed upon physical and spiritual death being seperate from each other.when it comes to the fall . . Here’s why . You point out that Adam only died spiritually because he went on to live for over 900 yrs so your argument is that his death could not have been biological at the fall. Now there be a number of others that lived to great ages also like Methuselah he lived some older than Adam. But with that being said here’s the problem with the argument. So what of the ones that didn’t get to live so long . Let’s take our new world for example .Many die from decease, many from viruses like the common cold the flu or allergies many are born with bodily dysfunctions and depending on their condition they may live a little from just being out of the womb with the possibility of dying after a short life or living to a ripe old age. And of course there be some that do not even make it out the womb. . Now Major my question would be this was the old world any different in the matter of death compared to the new world. I do think only that some some lived to extraordinary ages but certainly not all. And that’s why at least in our religious instruction anyway. Our interpretation is that both physical and spiritual death cannot be separated they both happened simultaneously with the fall. Adam may have lived a long life but the cancer of death was upon him from that moment he partook. And so it would have been upon many of his progeny much sooner as described in my previous description of death in the new world . Longevity be the exception in a fallen world not the norm . At least that’s how we interpret the fall in Genesis and much of Romans chapter 5. And yes agreed Adam and Eve were certainly lost for a short time spiritually. Maybe like a few hours. : ) As seems that Gods sacrifice and skins to cover Adam & Eve and restore their spiritual relationship with him weren’t long in coming. Major when thinking upon old earth and young earth. I sure you think upon much. Me do know it be a rather old belief system going back to the 2nd cent AD . There has been quite a variety of systems and beliefs from it over the millennia. Julian from AD 331 believed in co Adamisn. Multiple pairs. But maybe enough discussion for this reply . Prim

 

[Major]

Major we certainly be agreed upon the word cosmos . ( the world ) often referring to people’s as with your reference to John 3:16 for God so loved the world and not solely meaning the environment But we certainly not be agreed upon physical and spiritual death being seperate from each other.when it comes to the fall . View attachment 11733. Here’s why . You point out that Adam only died spiritually because he went on to live for over 900 yrs so your argument is that his death could not have been biological at the fall. Now there be a number of others that lived to great ages also like Methuselah he lived some older than Adam. But with that being said here’s the problem with the argument. So what of the ones that didn’t get to live so long . Let’s take our new world for example .Many die from decease, many from viruses like the common cold the flu or allergies many are born with bodily dysfunctions and depending on their condition they may live a little from just being out of the womb with the possibility of dying after a short life or living to a ripe old age. And of course there be some that do not even make it out the womb. View attachment 11733. Now Major my question would be this was the old world any different in the matter of death compared to the new world. I do think only that some some lived to extraordinary ages but certainly not all. And that’s why at least in our religious instruction anyway. Our interpretation is that both physical and spiritual death cannot be separated they both happened simultaneously with the fall. Adam may have lived a long life but the cancer of death was upon him from that moment he partook. And so it would have been upon many of his progeny much sooner as described in my previous description of death in the new world . Longevity be the exception in a fallen world not the norm . At least that’s how we interpret the fall in Genesis and much of Romans chapter 5. View attachment 11733 And yes agreed Adam and Eve were certainly lost for a short time spiritually. Maybe like a few hours. : ) As seems that Gods sacrifice and skins to cover Adam & Eve and restore their spiritual relationship with him weren’t long in coming. Major when thinking upon old earth and young earth. I sure you think upon much. Me do know it be a rather old belief system going back to the 2nd cent AD . There has been quite a variety of systems and beliefs from it over the millennia. Julian from AD 331 believed in co Adamisn. Multiple pairs. But maybe enough discussion for this reply . Prim

I am glad we agree.

We are entering a total different topic now when we talk about death then and death now. They are actually not comparable.

"some' people lived very long lives according to the Scriptures but not all people then.

You said.......
"Our interpretation is that both physical and spiritual death cannot be separated they both happened simultaneously with the fall."

I disagree with that idea. The Bible tells us in Ephesians 2:1-4........
"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath."

Romans 3:23 says.......
"ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

Every one of us is a born sinner by NATURE. We were concieved in sin and born Sinners, therefore it is clear that spiritual and physical death are two different things.

Now.....The Bible presents death as separation: physical death is the separation of the soul from the body, and spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God.

The whole world is subject to death because all have sinned.

Romans 5:12........
“Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned”. I

Then in Genesis 2:17, the Lord warned Adam that the penalty for disobedience would be death—“You will certainly die.”

The Bible then tells us that When Adam disobeyed, he experienced immediate spiritual death, which caused him to hide “from the Lord God among the trees of the garden” (Gen.3:8).

930 years Later, Adam experienced physical death in Genesis 5:5 so then we can clearly see that there is in fact a difference in spiritual and physical death.

I appreciate the conversation and YES, I have given this topic many years of study and thought. Still am doing so!

 

[Major]

I used to drive taxis, and we had a saying which the above reminded me, and I liked. "Old cabbies never die, they just 'hack' away".

Amen.

My old football coach at Roll Tide always said to us........."Just do your job. Do it well and do it every play".

In entire life, seriously.....I was never the most talented, I just outworked worked everyone else!!!
I was the 1st on the practice field and the last one to leave. In the Army, I was the 1st on the battlefield and the last one to leave.
In business, I was the 1st to unlock the door in the morning and the one to lock the door at night, every single day.

That is because I was blessed with old country parents who insisted on a work ethic and athletic coaches who did the same.

That leads to the fact that success in life is not luck........but is preparation and God's directions!

 

[crossnote]

Amen.

My old football coach at Roll Tide always said to us........."Just do your job. Do it well and do it every play".

In entire life, seriously.....I was never the most talented, I just outworked worked everyone else!!!
I was the 1st on the practice field and the last one to leave. In the Army, I was the 1st on the battlefield and the last one to leave.
In business, I was the 1st to unlock the door in the morning and the one to lock the door at night, every single day.

That is because I was blessed with old country parents who insisted on a work ethic and athletic coaches who did the same.

That leads to the fact that success in life is not luck........but is preparation and God's directions!

My wife and her siblings were taught similarly by their dad, they all excelled in what they put their hands to. Me? Just a lazy city flunky..lol

 

[Major]

My wife and her siblings were taught similarly by their dad, they all excelled in what they put their hands to. Me? Just a lazy city flunky..lol

Nothing like self deflection to gain friends!!!

 

[Prim90]

I am glad we agree.

We are entering a total different topic now when we talk about death then and death now. They are actually not comparable.

"some' people lived very long lives according to the Scriptures but not all people then.

You said.......
"Our interpretation is that both physical and spiritual death cannot be separated they both happened simultaneously with the fall."

I disagree with that idea. The Bible tells us in Ephesians 2:1-4........
"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath."

Romans 3:23 says.......
"ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

Every one of us is a born sinner by NATURE. We were concieved in sin and born Sinners, therefore it is clear that spiritual and physical death are two different things.

Now.....The Bible presents death as separation: physical death is the separation of the soul from the body, and spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God.

The whole world is subject to death because all have sinned.

Romans 5:12........
“Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned”. I

Then in Genesis 2:17, the Lord warned Adam that the penalty for disobedience would be death—“You will certainly die.”

The Bible then tells us that When Adam disobeyed, he experienced immediate spiritual death, which caused him to hide “from the Lord God among the trees of the garden” (Gen.3:8).

930 years Later, Adam experienced physical death in Genesis 5:5 so then we can clearly see that there is in fact a difference in spiritual and physical death.

I appreciate the conversation and YES, I have given this topic many years of study and thought. Still am doing so!

Major none of those verses contradict spiritual or physical death acting together either way . It does intrigue me why you so doggedly hold to this position unless it has significant importance in other doctrinal issues. But let’s go through your argument again. . Your argument is because Adam never physically died immediately in the garden Than it was only a spiritual death and his body was not affected. And the very reason that Adam lived over 900 years. Ok for this to be true this would mean that every pre flood person lived out their allotted time without the consequences of physical death having any effect on their biological body until their use by date. Meaning that people only died by accidents or murder. Your than saying that no infant mortality nor child mortality from biological dysfunction or disorders would have happened in the pre flood. And there also be the matter of mother Eve and the physical judgement placed on her by God in Genesis 3:16 of where the Lord says he would multiply our sorrows very much in bearing children of which every lady has had to endure sometimes through the loss of children and sometimes at the actual loss of the mother’s life. This alone disqualifies spiritual death being seperate from physical death. Little lone all the other deformities that inflict the fallen world of humility at any given moment in life.. . Major I really can’t see why one would want to separate and deny one from the other. They are interlinked. You could say joined at the hip. And just because Adam and many others lived vast ages really doesn’t distract from that reality . That Adam now had a fallen physical body with the gene of death working within his body as well . And like all of us. No one escapes that reality no one makes it out alive . At least within the physical fallen state of our post fallen bodies. I simply can’t understand why you choose to separate one from the other. There seems no valid reason to do so. We continue to disagree on that. Yours Prim

 

[Dave F.]

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Does this verse not show there is a difference between physical and spiritual death? Physical death came as a result of the fall, because Adam and Eve were no longer allowed to eat from the tree of life. Spiritual death came from the fall, because of their disobedience to God by eating of the forbidden fruit. We, as descendants, have inherited the sin nature and so we are spiritually dead until we accept Jesus as our Lord and savior. The tree of life is no longer on the earth, thus we all face physical death.

 

[Major]

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Does this verse not show there is a difference between physical and spiritual death? Physical death came as a result of the fall, because Adam and Eve were no longer allowed to eat from the tree of life. Spiritual death came from the fall, because of their disobedience to God by eating of the forbidden fruit. We, as descendants, have inherited the sin nature and so we are spiritually dead until we accept Jesus as our Lord and savior. The tree of life is no longer on the earth, thus we all face physical death.

Correct!

 

[Major]

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Does this verse not show there is a difference between physical and spiritual death? Physical death came as a result of the fall, because Adam and Eve were no longer allowed to eat from the tree of life. Spiritual death came from the fall, because of their disobedience to God by eating of the forbidden fruit. We, as descendants, have inherited the sin nature and so we are spiritually dead until we accept Jesus as our Lord and savior. The tree of life is no longer on the earth, thus we all face physical death.

Prime....I am saddened that you do not understand the difference and that you do not see the truth of the Scriptures that say that.

Clearly......IF there was no difference in spiritual death and physical death then Adam "would not have live 930 years after he sinned".

Prime, do you not understand that if...if we go the route of no difference between physical deat and spiritual death, you are calling God a liar. Are you comfortable doing that????

Lets read the actual Scripture in Gen. 2:17........
“Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die”.

Did Adam die on the 6th day when he ate the fruit????

According to the Scriptures he lived another 930 years. I am perplexed at how that could possible be misunderstood.

As far as I can determine, there are only TWO options available here.

1).
The actual and literal Hebrew phrase translated “in the day” in Gen 2:17 is sometimes used to mean “for certain”---"for sure". (examples are, Exodus 10:28; 1 Kings 2:37, 42). So, Adam and Eve “certainly” died; it’s just that their physical death took place much later (Genesis 5:5). This view is also supported by Genesis 3:22, in which God determines to bar man from the tree of life to prevent him from living forever. Adam and Eve lost eternal life, were expelled from the Garden of Eden, and eventually experienced physical death.

2).
As I have explained, Genesis 2:17 is that “death” refers to spiritual death.
When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, they experienced a separation from God, a loss of relationship due to their sin. Their first actions after sinning were to cover themselves up and hide from God (Genesis 3:7-8). This alienation from the Source of Life can be viewed as spiritual death.

However......Praise the Lord, He did not abandon Adam and Eve. He provided clothing for them in Gen 3:21 to cover their sin.
Then God allowed them to have children and He also promised “the seed of the woman” to crush the power of the serpent. This promise was fulfilled in Jesus Christ, who defeated sin and death on the cross and provides abundant life now and eternal life with God in heaven

As Romans 5:19 says........
“For as by the one man’s [Adam’s] disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s [Jesus’] obedience the many will be made righteous.”

 

[Prim90]

Prime....I am saddened that you do not understand the difference and that you do not see the truth of the Scriptures that say that.

Clearly......IF there was no difference in spiritual death and physical death then Adam "would not have live 930 years after he sinned".

Prime, do you not understand that if...if we go the route of no difference between physical deat and spiritual death, you are calling God a liar. Are you comfortable doing that????

Lets read the actual Scripture in Gen. 2:17........
“Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die”.

Did Adam die on the 6th day when he ate the fruit????

According to the Scriptures he lived another 930 years. I am perplexed at how that could possible be misunderstood.

As far as I can determine, there are only TWO options available here.

1).
The actual and literal Hebrew phrase translated “in the day” in Gen 2:17 is sometimes used to mean “for certain”---"for sure". (examples are, Exodus 10:28; 1 Kings 2:37, 42). So, Adam and Eve “certainly” died; it’s just that their physical death took place much later (Genesis 5:5). This view is also supported by Genesis 3:22, in which God determines to bar man from the tree of life to prevent him from living forever. Adam and Eve lost eternal life, were expelled from the Garden of Eden, and eventually experienced physical death.

2).
As I have explained, Genesis 2:17 is that “death” refers to spiritual death.
When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, they experienced a separation from God, a loss of relationship due to their sin. Their first actions after sinning were to cover themselves up and hide from God (Genesis 3:7-8). This alienation from the Source of Life can be viewed as spiritual death.

However......Praise the Lord, He did not abandon Adam and Eve. He provided clothing for them in Gen 3:21 to cover their sin.
Then God allowed them to have children and He also promised “the seed of the woman” to crush the power of the serpent. This promise was fulfilled in Jesus Christ, who defeated sin and death on the cross and provides abundant life now and eternal life with God in heaven

As Romans 5:19 says........
“For as by the one man’s [Adam’s] disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s [Jesus’] obedience the many will be made righteous.”

Major there clearly be a difference in spiritual death and physical death but just not the way your promoting. Death came to both at the same time. You have yet to answer the matter of infant mortality of those who die before the age of one and also of child mortality of those who die over the age of one. Was it the same in the old world as in the new world. Perhaps you believe there was no infant mortality in the old world. Now when you say because Adam lived to 930 yrs of in your mind set your claiming that Adam was biologically uncontaminated because this would make God a liar because Adam did not die on the very day God said he would. I guess it comes down to how you interpret the meaning. Traditional Christianity has always interpreted that Adam died both spiritually and physically from sin So yes Adams & Eves physical decay in death began that very day. It was just when the physical death would take its full effect. . It doesn't matter that Adam and many others lived to vast ages the reality is that they were no longer physically immortal. All did eventually die because of the consequences of sin. Actually when thinking upon your claim that this would make God a liar. Well tell me this this was God a liar in regards to Genesis 6:3 or Psalm 90: 10 when by Gods decree he did lower the age of longevity . Are those statements set in concrete considering that some have lived past those ages more so with the 3 score and 10 due to medical advances over the past few hundred years in our present society where you can live to 90 rather well. No it’s merely a general guideline and considering that the majority of people never reached that age in centuries past many died before 50. . And finally Major if Adams body had remained biologically uninflected by sin than the natural sperm of any man would have done for impregnating Mary. But seems that Holy Sperm was required for redemption because the first Adam was not only spiritually contaminated but also biologically contaminated meaning that his sperm make up was biologically corrupted too. It makes you very much sad that I think the way I do ?. Major I do see your way very much. But I simply don’t discriminate between the spiritual and physical consequences of sin & death when it comes to denying the physical effects of sin it’s bordering on heresy in what you promote. I hope you can now fully grasp more understand in the latter part of my reply of the consequences of what you are promoting. Yours Prim

 

[Major]

Major there clearly be a difference in spiritual death and physical death but just not the way your promoting. Death came to both at the same time. You have yet to answer the matter of infant mortality of those who die before the age of one and also of child mortality of those who die over the age of one. Was it the same in the old world as in the new world. Perhaps you believe there was no infant mortality in the old world. Now when you say because Adam lived to 930 yrs of in your mind set your claiming that Adam was biologically uncontaminated because this would make God a liar because Adam did not die on the very day God said he would. I guess it comes down to how you interpret the meaning. Traditional Christianity has always interpreted that Adam died both spiritually and physically from sin So yes Adams & Eves physical decay in death began that very day. It was just when the physical death would take its full effect. View attachment 11739. It doesn't matter that Adam and many others lived to vast ages the reality is that they were no longer physically immortal. All did eventually die because of the consequences of sin. Actually when thinking upon your claim that this would make God a liar. Well tell me this this was God a liar in regards to Genesis 6:3 or Psalm 90: 10 when by Gods decree he did lower the age of longevity View attachment 11740View attachment 11741. Are those statements set in concrete considering that some have lived past those ages more so with the 3 score and 10 due to medical advances over the past few hundred years in our present society where you can live to 90 rather well. No it’s merely a general guideline and considering that the majority of people never reached that age in centuries past many died before 50. View attachment 11739. And finally Major if Adams body had remained biologically uninflected by sin than the natural sperm of any man would have done for impregnating Mary. But seems that Holy Sperm was required for redemption because the first Adam was not only spiritually contaminated but also biologically contaminated meaning that his sperm make up was biologically corrupted too. It makes you very much sad that I think the way I do ?. Major I do see your way very much. But I simply don’t discriminate between the spiritual and physical consequences of sin & death when it comes to denying the physical effects of sin it’s bordering on heresy in what you promote. I hope you can now fully grasp more understand in the latter part of my reply of the consequences of what you are promoting. Yours Prim

You said...........
"And finally Major if Adams body had remained biologically uninflected by sin than the natural sperm of any man would have done for impregnating Mary. But seems that Holy Sperm was required for redemption because the first Adam was not only spiritually contaminated but also biologically contaminated meaning that his sperm make up was biologically corrupted too. It makes you very much sad that I think the way I do ?."

My dear sister, there is so much wrong with that comment that it is difficult for me to know where to begin.

#1.
Adam was indeed affected by his rebellion and I never said that he wasn't.

#2.
NO "natural man" would have been acceptable to cause the incarnation of God.

#3.
YES. Adam was spiritually and physically corrupted by his sin which is exactly what I said. He disobeyed God and DIED spiritually and then 930 years later he died physically.

#4.
Biologically contaminated sperm has NO part in this topic. Jesus the Christ was incarnated by the Holy Spirit of God through Mary. That way, Jesus the Christ was incarnated without a "sin nature" which made it impossible for Him to sin.

#5.
The explination of Genesis 6:3 is that it was the time remaining before the flood. In the richness of His grace, God was giving people more than enough time to repent. This concept aligns with the immediately preceding statement that God’s Spirit would not strive with man forever. It took Noah 120 years to build the Ark and during those 120 years he preached the coming judgment of God.

#6.
Then out of the blue then you ask me..............
" You have yet to answer the matter of infant mortality of those who die before the age of one and also of child mortality of those who die over the age of one."

That has never been asked of me by you!!!!!

Prim, we must always be aware that Scripture often presents us with uncomfortable events that we do not like to consider.

Some, like the flood, involve incidents we naturally find gut-wrenching, such as infants and children drowning along with adults. Other examples include Israel’s conquest of the Promised Land, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and Korah's rebellion.

It’s important to realize that the Bible does not shy away from these events—but it does present them in a clear context. To properly understand how God’s goodness fits with His actions in those cases, we need to keep that context firmly in mind.

Now, having said that lets read Genesis 6:7.........
"And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."

That tells us that the ENTIRE scope of humanity was corrupt and hated God except ONE MAN....Noah.

Genesis 6:8.......
"8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."

Because of God's grace and Noah's faith, God saved Noah and his 7 family members out of the entire population of humanity.

Genesis 6:18......
"18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee."

Now that I have given you the proper CONTEXT, allow me to say there is a strong argument to be made that God’s act of taking those children’s lives was divine mercy. Given what the Bible seems to teach about the age of accountability, children who were killed in the flood escaped damnation in hell. Those who would have grown up to hate and defy God would have been eternally lost. While not certain, it’s at least possible that the flood was an act of mercy on the young, for that reason. To be abundantly clear, this is not an argument that can be applied to human beings making such choices.

 

[forgiven61]

And finally Major if Adams body had remained biologically uninflected by sin than the natural sperm of any man would have done for impregnating Mary. But seems that Holy Sperm was required for redemption because the first Adam was not only spiritually contaminated but also biologically contaminated meaning that his sperm make up was biologically corrupted too. It makes you very much sad that I think the way I do ?. Major I do see your way very much. But I simply don’t discriminate between the spiritual and physical consequences of sin & death when it comes to denying the physical effects of sin it’s bordering on heresy in what you promote. I hope you can now fully grasp more understand in the latter part of my reply of the consequences of what you are promoting. Yours Prim

i have really did my best to refrain from this post.. one i find no theological value in it at all....... two the above statement pardon my saying but its left field theology. .none of this can be backed up with Bible see sperm is sperm there is no such thing as Holy sanctified sperm ..where do you possibly get this from ?

 

[ModeratorTeam]

STAFF MEMO:

A few participants in this thread have obvious Belief System differences and as a result, some elevated emotional posting is taking place.

Either come to common ground or this thread will be locked.

Thank you for your cooperation.


`

 

[Prim90]

You said...........
"And finally Major if Adams body had remained biologically uninflected by sin than the natural sperm of any man would have done for impregnating Mary. But seems that Holy Sperm was required for redemption because the first Adam was not only spiritually contaminated but also biologically contaminated meaning that his sperm make up was biologically corrupted too. It makes you very much sad that I think the way I do ?."

My dear sister, there is so much wrong with that comment that it is difficult for me to know where to begin.

#1.
Adam was indeed affected by his rebellion and I never said that he wasn't.

#2.
NO "natural man" would have been acceptable to cause the incarnation of God.

#3.
YES. Adam was spiritually and physically corrupted by his sin which is exactly what I said. He disobeyed God and DIED spiritually and then 930 years later he died physically.

#4.
Biologically contaminated sperm has NO part in this topic. Jesus the Christ was incarnated by the Holy Spirit of God through Mary. That way, Jesus the Christ was incarnated without a "sin nature" which made it impossible for Him to sin.

#5.
The explination of Genesis 6:3 is that it was the time remaining before the flood. In the richness of His grace, God was giving people more than enough time to repent. This concept aligns with the immediately preceding statement that God’s Spirit would not strive with man forever. It took Noah 120 years to build the Ark and during those 120 years he preached the coming judgment of God.

#6.
Then out of the blue then you ask me..............
" You have yet to answer the matter of infant mortality of those who die before the age of one and also of child mortality of those who die over the age of one."

That has never been asked of me by you!!!!!

Prim, we must always be aware that Scripture often presents us with uncomfortable events that we do not like to consider.

Some, like the flood, involve incidents we naturally find gut-wrenching, such as infants and children drowning along with adults. Other examples include Israel’s conquest of the Promised Land, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and Korah's rebellion.

It’s important to realize that the Bible does not shy away from these events—but it does present them in a clear context. To properly understand how God’s goodness fits with His actions in those cases, we need to keep that context firmly in mind.

Now, having said that lets read Genesis 6:7.........
"And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."

That tells us that the ENTIRE scope of humanity was corrupt and hated God except ONE MAN....Noah.

Genesis 6:8.......
"8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."

Because of God's grace and Noah's faith, God saved Noah and his 7 family members out of the entire population of humanity.

Genesis 6:18......
"18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee."

Now that I have given you the proper CONTEXT, allow me to say there is a strong argument to be made that God’s act of taking those children’s lives was divine mercy. Given what the Bible seems to teach about the age of accountability, children who were killed in the flood escaped damnation in hell. Those who would have grown up to hate and defy God would have been eternally lost. While not certain, it’s at least possible that the flood was an act of mercy on the young, for that reason. To be abundantly clear, this is not an argument that can be applied to human beings making such choices.

Major we seem to have had a misunderstanding on when death entered Adam. All I was simply saying, though Adam didn’t die until 930 yrs later but still death had entered Adam like an inactive cancer it just hadn’t be fully activated yet . In other words Adam was a dead man walking though still fully alive. I think the misunderstanding came with spiritual death and physical death. I was of the opinion that you were saying that death and sin hadn’t entered Adam body at the fall until he actually died .and that spiritual death had only occurred . . I thought you were insisting that Adams body was was unaffected by the fall and still perfect along with all his progeny in the pre flood era. You have cleared that up in your point 3 that Adam was both spiritually and physically corrupted at the fall. Point 4 on impregnation was only to show the biological break down due to our fallen nature and that no one but God could intercede in that matter. As to Point 6 and infant mortality I was still under the opinion at the time that you believed that pre flood people weren’t physically corrupted and the reason I asked on the matter . More so with the birth pangs and pain inflicted upon woman due to the fall. But you have clearly that up in your point 3. Ok Major fully understand your position. MajorThank you for the input to the discussion It has been much fruitful and also of much theological value Yours Prim

 

[Prim90]

i have really did my best to refrain from this post.. one i find no theological value in it at all....... two the above statement pardon my saying but its left field theology. .none of this can be backed up with Bible see sperm is sperm there is no such thing as Holy sanctified sperm ..where do you possibly get this from ?

Forgiven we don’t fully know how the impregnation of Mary by the Holy thing worked. Perhaps God used an entirely different method. But we do know that Christ came into the world as Fully Human and fully God . You find nothing theological beneficial in the discussion. Ok thank you for your thoughts