Pre Flood

[Major]

Major not all are so inflexible with the young earth’s creationists claim of 6000 yrs. We could go 7000 yrs or 8000 yrs or even stretch the possibility to 10:000 yrs at the max. But your not promoting flexibility when you claim old age earth doctrine because your claiming unprovable ages of millions of yrs. If we go with your proposal along with the dinosaurs not roaming our Adamic world but becoming extinct some 60 to 70 million years prior. Than death did not originate in our world through Adam & Eve. And it weakens immensely the salvation message of the gospel of a mere 7 -10,000 yrs ago when compared to the vast ages of 70 million yrs of death prior to the biblical account Which begs the question. Did all those bygone ages have a redeemer too ??? Or was it just 70 million yrs of continuous conflict and destruction???

Dear Prim.......I do not think that "The only way to understand this situation is to lean toward the Old Earth belief."...is a statement of un-flexability. When reading my post, I think you will see IMHO!

As I stated, this topic will certainly bring in the Old Eart vs. the Young Earth theology and that is what is happening.

It comes down to Bible against science every single time. I am not say that YOU are but many believers view the scientific world with skepticism, believing that it is at heart an attempt to discredit faith in God.

May I say to you that In Romans 5:12–21, and in the Bible generally, death does not have an exclusively biological meaning.

In verses 12–14, thanatos is defined as a divine judgment upon all mankind for Adam’s transgression as the covenant head of humanity. In verse 21, death is contrasted with eternal life – which, everyone will agree, is not really a biological concept at all. Paul undoubtedly developed his theological understanding of death as divine judgment upon human sin from the Genesis creation account, where God warned Adam and Eve that “in the day that you eat of the tree you will surely die” (Genesis 2:16).

Yet they did not die biologically “in the day” that they ate of the tree. They lived another 930 years so death was not instant but put off.

Nevertheless, the divine judgment of death was executed against man, as shown symbolically in the removal of Adam and Eve from the garden, that they might not eat of the tree of life (Genesis 3:22–24). Certainly, this divine judgment included the physical cessation of biological life (Genesis 3:19), but it cannot be limited to that so to use Romans explanation of death was only AFTER the fall just does not work!

Also...please consider that In addition to misinterpreting thanatos, those who appeal to Romans 5:12 to deny pre-Fall animal death, must also assume a certain preselected definition of kosmos or world.

The world into which sin and death entered is assumed to be the creation as a whole, including the non-human realm. But this is not the meaning that Paul seems to have in view in the context.

For example, in verse 13, Paul says,........
“Before the Law, sin was in the kosmos.”

But sin cannot be “in the non-human realm.”

It is more likely that the term kosmos here refers to the world of humanity—a common usage of the term with which we are already familiar in John 3:16: ......"For God so loved the kosmos, that he gave his only begotten Son.”

In fact, Paul uses the phrase “all men” in the second clause of Romans 5:12 as a synonym for “world” (and again in verse 18).

 

[Prim90]

Dear Prim.......I do not think that "The only way to understand this situation is to lean toward the Old Earth belief."...is a statement of un-flexability. When reading my post, I think you will see IMHO!

As I stated, this topic will certainly bring in the Old Eart vs. the Young Earth theology and that is what is happening.

It comes down to Bible against science every single time. I am not say that YOU are but many believers view the scientific world with skepticism, believing that it is at heart an attempt to discredit faith in God.

May I say to you that In Romans 5:12–21, and in the Bible generally, death does not have an exclusively biological meaning.

In verses 12–14, thanatos is defined as a divine judgment upon all mankind for Adam’s transgression as the covenant head of humanity. In verse 21, death is contrasted with eternal life – which, everyone will agree, is not really a biological concept at all. Paul undoubtedly developed his theological understanding of death as divine judgment upon human sin from the Genesis creation account, where God warned Adam and Eve that “in the day that you eat of the tree you will surely die” (Genesis 2:16).

Yet they did not die biologically “in the day” that they ate of the tree. They lived another 930 years so death was not instant but put off.

Nevertheless, the divine judgment of death was executed against man, as shown symbolically in the removal of Adam and Eve from the garden, that they might not eat of the tree of life (Genesis 3:22–24). Certainly, this divine judgment included the physical cessation of biological life (Genesis 3:19), but it cannot be limited to that so to use Romans explanation of death was only AFTER the fall just does not work!

Also...please consider that In addition to misinterpreting thanatos, those who appeal to Romans 5:12 to deny pre-Fall animal death, must also assume a certain preselected definition of kosmos or world.

The world into which sin and death entered is assumed to be the creation as a whole, including the non-human realm. But this is not the meaning that Paul seems to have in view in the context.

For example, in verse 13, Paul says,........
“Before the Law, sin was in the kosmos.”

But sin cannot be “in the non-human realm.”

It is more likely that the term kosmos here refers to the world of humanity—a common usage of the term with which we are already familiar in John 3:16: ......"For God so loved the kosmos, that he gave his only begotten Son.”

In fact, Paul uses the phrase “all men” in the second clause of Romans 5:12 as a synonym for “world” (and again in verse 18).

The Major I hope you much well. When you write IMHO. After closer scrutiny meaning ( In my humble opinion ) I was not familiar with your initialism but now me fully understand . . Major you write very much about Romans 5:12 - 21. You mention the Greek word Thanatos. Its original concept coming from the Greek legend where Thanatos is called Night and his brother Hypnos is called Sleep who both lived in Tartarus the reason the Strongs concordance merely reads literally death. But more detailed dictionaries bring forth other examples such as metaphorical meanings such as the personification of death and other meanings such as spiritual death . . Major you place much emphasis on Gods warning to Adam & Eve from Genesis 2:16 that they would surely die that very day should they partake from the tree of enlightenment and you lay much emphasis that they didn’t die on the very day but lived for another some 900 yrs. That in no way takes away from the fact that Adam & Eve biologically began dying from that very moment. It is self evident that God was meaning over a period of time . After all God was in the Garden. He could have killed Adam & Eve there and than if he chose on the very day they partook. But quite the opposite happens. God provides them animal skins to cover their nakedness which many refer to as the first sacrifice, Adam and Eve began immediately to die physically that day. But not spiritually their relationship with God was never fully broken. Unlike his offspring who would die both physically and spiritually until spiritually awakened and drawn and redeemed by God.. Major you than go on to contend that the young earth creationists use the term Kosmos the ( world ) wrongly in claiming that sin and death not only entered humanity by one man but also infected nature as well. I guess if they be correct that sinks the old age earth theory. But yes me see your point in that regard the word ( world ) Yes the word ( world )is often used to refer to peoples only and not just nature itself. Major me has written enough for now. The post is perhaps already too long to discuss further issues for now. Until next time . I wish you happy voting day tomorrow

 

[Mei Kor]

A while back we went to visit 'The Ark' in Kentucky. What impressed me the most was the size, and I believe they did a good job on dimensional construction. But when I went through it I was disappointed. They depicted the animals in cages with feeding and watering systems they even suggested the Ark had a ventilation system built into it. If we remember when God called His children out of Egypt their shoes did not wear out and their needs were met. I believe when God called all His creation to gather in the Ark He also sustained and looked after them. I don't believe cages were necessary and somehow the environment in the Ark was sustained. Even considering the work that it would take to operate the implied maintenance, Noah and his family would never have been able to manage it. Another point, as said the size of the ship and the weight of the materials required, no way could you have some guy with an axe and saw prep and handle those materials. I understand that the civilization during that time was highly developed and utilized 'modern means and materials' to build according to God's instruction.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
But I thought it a well worthwhile visit.
I'm interested to hear other opinions.

It is very interesting, thanks for the sharing for us who has never seen.

 

[Major]

The Major I hope you much well. When you write IMHO. After closer scrutiny meaning ( In my humble opinion ) I was not familiar with your initialism but now me fully understand . View attachment 11729. Major you write very much about Romans 5:12 - 21. You mention the Greek word Thanatos. Its original concept coming from the Greek legend where Thanatos is called Night and his brother Hypnos is called Sleep who both lived in Tartarus the reason the Strongs concordance merely reads literally death. But more detailed dictionaries bring forth other examples such as metaphorical meanings such as the personification of death and other meanings such as spiritual death . View attachment 11729. Major you place much emphasis on Gods warning to Adam & Eve from Genesis 2:16 that they would surely die that very day should they partake from the tree of enlightenment and you lay much emphasis that they didn’t die on the very day but lived for another some 900 yrs. That in no way takes away from the fact that Adam & Eve biologically began dying from that very moment. It is self evident that God was meaning over a period of time . After all God was in the Garden. He could have killed Adam & Eve there and than if he chose on the very day they partook. But quite the opposite happens. God provides them animal skins to cover their nakedness which many refer to as the first sacrifice, Adam and Eve began immediately to die physically that day. But not spiritually their relationship with God was never fully broken. Unlike his offspring who would die both physically and spiritually until spiritually awakened and drawn and redeemed by God.View attachment 11729. Major you than go on to contend that the young earth creationists use the term Kosmos the ( world ) wrongly in claiming that sin and death not only entered humanity by one man but also infected nature as well. I guess if they be correct that sinks the old age earth theory. But yes me see your point in that regard the word ( world ) Yes the word ( world )is often used to refer to peoples only and not just nature itself. Major me has written enough for now. The post is perhaps already too long to discuss further issues for now. Until next time . I wish you happy voting day tomorrow

Agreed.

Thanks for your concern. Old men just live one day to another!

The debate is that the word in Romans 5 does not mean physical death which would remove the argument of death began when Adam sinned which brought physical death into the world.

As YOU just agreed, Adam died "spiritually the moment he sinned but he lived another 930 years which means that death was not the meaning in Genesis 1 but instead he died spiritually and needed a Saviour. So his death was NOT Biological but Spiritual.

Prim....the relationship Adam and Eve has with God WAS indeed broken when they sinned. It was then that God killed animals to shed blood and make skins to cover their sin. That restored their relationship as God can not look upon sin.

Now, I honestly do not know. Young or Old earth. I can see and understand both sides. What I do know is that there are challenges on both sides which Scriptures do not address so the fact is, we are not going to know.

 

[crossnote]

Old men just live one day to another!

I used to drive taxis, and we had a saying which the above reminded me, and I liked. "Old cabbies never die, they just 'hack' away".