Progressing from Milk to Meat
- Thread starter Siloam
- Start date
Living in my community, developing my personal perspectives, and trying to formulate why many church buildings face extinction I have my own ideas. I see churches closing their doors from too many members meeting our Father in heaven. I see pastors not wishing to preach where there isn't a substantial salary, and more doors close. I see numbers dwindling in many churches as I have visited. Do I support my home church? Yes. Do I attend regularly? No. What I see happening are average churches losing members across the denominational board. Im finding more people at garage study meetings in private homes than in a traditional Sunday service setting.
I see young Christian couples not going to church, because they do not wish to be there. I also see the formation of what I choose to call "mega churches" to fill this need, with a flow of filled seats. They provide a "concert" like service complete with light shows and bands. People flock to these churches because they enjoy the experience. More time, energy, effort, and choreography, is placed on a digitally presented service than on the message. The anonymity can be staggering, but they are bringing people in. That's a good thing on any day, even if they don't join regularly.
Which brings me back to my dichotomy. Why have I roamed around to these different churches to begin with? To understand my community, and find that which I lack. Why are younger saved couples not church members? They are not getting what they lack just like Im not. Church is about the message, and today that message has been distorted greatly by the trappings of this world. Im not going to blatantly point out the sins of others especially being Im a sinner myself. Sin is sin, and no one is greater although it may be different. Eyes and ears are watching and listening. They don't always like what has been presented.
I see young Christian couples not going to church, because they do not wish to be there. I also see the formation of what I choose to call "mega churches" to fill this need, with a flow of filled seats. They provide a "concert" like service complete with light shows and bands. People flock to these churches because they enjoy the experience. More time, energy, effort, and choreography, is placed on a digitally presented service than on the message. The anonymity can be staggering, but they are bringing people in. That's a good thing on any day, even if they don't join regularly.
Which brings me back to my dichotomy. Why have I roamed around to these different churches to begin with? To understand my community, and find that which I lack. Why are younger saved couples not church members? They are not getting what they lack just like Im not. Church is about the message, and today that message has been distorted greatly by the trappings of this world. Im not going to blatantly point out the sins of others especially being Im a sinner myself. Sin is sin, and no one is greater although it may be different. Eyes and ears are watching and listening. They don't always like what has been presented.
Its because the older church members invested in the church building but the younger church memebers (not sure why you picking on couples) did not. They dont want to be in debt and have another huge mortgage hanging over them. If a church building was built typically the founding members paid for it through their tithes, they might have actually had a say in where it was sited, the building materials etc. they would have known the cost of it. But anyone new would have no idea how much it cost to build the church and wouldnt understand how much it does cost to maintain it.
Methodism arose out of disatisfaction with the church of england and people typically met in peoples homes because nobody wanted to pay rent in order to worship. Back in those days, people rented pews and only the rich could afford to be in church!
Methodism arose out of disatisfaction with the church of england and people typically met in peoples homes because nobody wanted to pay rent in order to worship. Back in those days, people rented pews and only the rich could afford to be in church!
Yes indeed. The ground at the foot of the cross is level.
Father God, I ask you to grant this child of yours a place that she can call home. A place where the Word of God is preached and she can praise you and thank you and be blessed by you....In Jesus name, AMEN!
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Excellently thought through comment.
The reason why so many young couples are not church members is because they are not saved!!!
Most do not hear anything said by the preacher to cause them to want to be saved.
IMO, and it is only an opinion......…..you touched on the situation when you said...
"They provide a "concert" like service complete with light shows and bands. "
People today want to be entertained. This generation has been raised on TV and computers.
The days of pulpit pounding preachers are pretty much gone which is why so many young people are not saved.
I am not putting down mega churches but The mega churches again, IMO are fostering a kind of Religious service where a soothing feel good sermons are spoken by positive motivators. When people leave they feel good about themselves...….however they are not saved.
Salvation comes only by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Old fashioned preachers who preach until the blood runs down the isle and tears of conviction flow down the faces of people are few and far between if any even exist at all. It is then that people come to Christ, NOT when they feel good about themselves, but when they feel bad about their sin.
Now then.....YOU keep looking for that church that will meet your needs!!! Do not give up!
When you sit and a man gets excited about what he is saying, takes his coat and tie off, and raises his voice and without any apology proclaims that...….. "Jesus is the God-Man and no one comes to the Father except by Him to the glory of God"----then you will know you have found where God wants you to be!
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I got sent a leaflet about a christian conference up the road from me, cost is $50 if you a student or senior citizen. It is your typical mega church event.
I think the first few times its exciting, because some people are right at the start of their journey and getting saved, but after youve been to a few of them you kind of want more meat as you say.
It is hard to find meat at those mega church events. It is important to reach out to the younger generation though, and at their stage in life they just cant really handle anything more than the basics.
I mean heres the thing, my mission has always been as a librarian and thats getting peoole to actually physically sit down and open a book to read. How can they do that when they distracted by tv and listening to radio and internet and computers and games and what not.
I mean turning a page and having a bookmark and reading an ENTIRE book is actually a foreign concept for some people!!
People think they read a book when theyve skimmed through something, looked at the pictures or can quote the title. Well no, you actually have had to read each sentence and every single word!
I think the first few times its exciting, because some people are right at the start of their journey and getting saved, but after youve been to a few of them you kind of want more meat as you say.
It is hard to find meat at those mega church events. It is important to reach out to the younger generation though, and at their stage in life they just cant really handle anything more than the basics.
I mean heres the thing, my mission has always been as a librarian and thats getting peoole to actually physically sit down and open a book to read. How can they do that when they distracted by tv and listening to radio and internet and computers and games and what not.
I mean turning a page and having a bookmark and reading an ENTIRE book is actually a foreign concept for some people!!
People think they read a book when theyve skimmed through something, looked at the pictures or can quote the title. Well no, you actually have had to read each sentence and every single word!
As I have mentioned in a couple of posts, since my wife and I moved, we have been looking for a church home. For myself, I can usually find a blessing just being with God's people, though I feel most at home in a traditional congregation singing traditional hymns. Whatever the style, if they preach Christ and Him raised, I feel blessed.
My wife is a little more timid and becomes self-conscious more easily.
We are now focusing on two congregations.
The first is a very traditional church. Old time hymnal, a choir, preaching from The Word. The second is a mega-church with contemporary songs with words that appear on large flat screens and led by a praise team that seems a lot like cheer leaders at a football game. Preaching is Bible based, but draws farther to make application.
Since the mega church has three Sunday services to accommodate all their members, we can attend an early service at one and attend the other. The members there also have a men's Bible study group that I have found to be a blessing.
They are very different, but they serve the same Lord. I rejoice in the number of people being brought into Gods special presence as well as fellowship in so many ways.
One of the most memorable things I from one of my former churches was when the pastor noted the grumbling about a revival happening at a church on the other side of one of these divides. He then gave the various definitions of blasphemy, which was to call the works of the Spirit as the works of the enemy. This spiritual leader, this kindly man then put on the sternest face I have ever seen on him and glared around the congregation. He did not have to say any more. Nuff said.
I would not gainsay either approach any more than I would speak against a church that preached on "the opposite side" on one of the doctrinal divides (such as charismatic gifts).
I would only say that "personal likes" over a traditional church and a mega which both preach the Gospel is one thing.
Another thing is when there is a choice to be made between what is doctrinally faithful against one which is not.
I would agree that _what_ a church preaches is more important then _how_ they preach, but I have found much blessing in churches that hold to some doctrines that do not exactly match my own. I find that even when my views are not in lock step with the those of the pulpit that I can still rejoice in lives saved as I examine my beliefs, sometimes coming through with my stance strengthened after examine.
A believer should find a church that is neither an doctrinal echo-chamber of his own thoughts where he is never challenged, and one that is so far removed from either the Bible or his core faith that he finds himself simply counting the supposed 'errors' in the sermon.
My advice is to look for a church where one can be a blessing at the same time they are being blessed. Part of that is being a church that challenges you to examine the scriptures and continually evaluate both the doctrine expoused by the church as well as the doctrine you hold.
Finally, where the message of the church is concerned, one must always recognize that the pastor and the elders set the message of the church according to how _they_ feel the Holy Spirit is leading, and one must not hurt that message. It is fine to have brotherly discussions where the message is not hurt by dissensions, but not be a disruption in the congregation.
Hmm not sure where I stand on this one I found churches where I was blessed and where I was not called to do much, but then there were churches where I was called to do everything and be a blessing but ended up burning myself out trying to do everything every single week. I also found doctrinal differences can be a challenge that wont sit comfortable too long because to go against an elder would be to usurp their position if you have a conviction its better to go be with those likeminded then be argumentative with an established board for example.
You can say your piece but if you are constantly countering doctrine and it could be just rules theyve made up and had for years, not necessarily biblical but just church traditions, or a particular interpetarion of scripture thats counter to how you read it, you cant just suddenly change their views to suit yourself. You just need to agree to disagree. I think you just need to accept that not everyone has the fullness of scripture and people are still learning, and there will probably be gaps in your understanding too. But thing is we cant lean on our own understanding anyway.
If God wants you there then thats where you should go to learn how to get a long with people who may be totally different from yourself. It may not have anything to do with doctrine at all. If everyone has the gospel, doctrines are just extra.
You can say your piece but if you are constantly countering doctrine and it could be just rules theyve made up and had for years, not necessarily biblical but just church traditions, or a particular interpetarion of scripture thats counter to how you read it, you cant just suddenly change their views to suit yourself. You just need to agree to disagree. I think you just need to accept that not everyone has the fullness of scripture and people are still learning, and there will probably be gaps in your understanding too. But thing is we cant lean on our own understanding anyway.
If God wants you there then thats where you should go to learn how to get a long with people who may be totally different from yourself. It may not have anything to do with doctrine at all. If everyone has the gospel, doctrines are just extra.
Dear brothers and sisters;
I've enjoyed reading Progressing From Milk To Meat! The discussion, opinions, disagreements and convictions in this topic was a great example of a forum topic done in love and open heart.
Thank you all for blessing me. It is nice to just relax and read while listening and learning.
God bless you all and your families.
I've enjoyed reading Progressing From Milk To Meat! The discussion, opinions, disagreements and convictions in this topic was a great example of a forum topic done in love and open heart.
Thank you all for blessing me. It is nice to just relax and read while listening and learning.
God bless you all and your families.
I would only say to you that I would advise that a church which does not teach and follow Bible doctrine should be
suspect.
It is one thing to be "challenged" within the boundaries of Christian doctrine but it is quite another to go outside of Bible doctrine when it is challenged.
Very much agreed!
One is not being taught if he is only hearing the things he learned long ago. Although getting a 'refresher' is often needed. One must still be careful _what_ is being taught.
There are fundamentals that are the foundation of worship of and teaching about Christ. A Christian is called to make an assessment of whether the church he attends is building on that foundation or building on some worldly base.
What I have been advocating avoiding going from church to church critiquing the the sermon rather than being taught.
There is an old saying that if you are looking for the perfect church and actually find it, what ever you do, do not join! It will no longer be perfect, since you are not perfect.
However, after one does select a church (or in my case two congregations) it is incumbent to be a blessing as well as to seek blessing from the fellowship.
It is find to ask questions and to voice doubts, but avoid being the center of strife within a congregation.
Yea I would advocate for peace rather than constant strife. If you cannot find peace in your church its better to remove yourself from it then be that constant doubter and dissenter.
I think some preachers do get stale and end up preaching the same topic over and over. But there are churches that bring in guest speakers and do refresh their sermons, but youve got to take into account they need to have a sermon ready every single week. Jesus ministered for just three years. Many preachers go on much longer than this. And sometimes repeat themselves.
In bible and schools we had a teachers manual for a whole year cycle and I think we had new material every three years. When you are teaching children they need to have milk, the meat part is when they get their own Bibles to read and look up for themselves.
You just need to pray they do because its not like there is assigned homework. Theres memory verses but its not like they have an exam at the end. Although some sunday schools do this, they have scripture exams.
I think some preachers do get stale and end up preaching the same topic over and over. But there are churches that bring in guest speakers and do refresh their sermons, but youve got to take into account they need to have a sermon ready every single week. Jesus ministered for just three years. Many preachers go on much longer than this. And sometimes repeat themselves.
In bible and schools we had a teachers manual for a whole year cycle and I think we had new material every three years. When you are teaching children they need to have milk, the meat part is when they get their own Bibles to read and look up for themselves.
You just need to pray they do because its not like there is assigned homework. Theres memory verses but its not like they have an exam at the end. Although some sunday schools do this, they have scripture exams.
For a personal example, I can give another aspect of my own church search.
As I have indicated in other threads, I look at physical laws as expressions of God’s nature, and note that physics and the other sciences are the studies of those laws, and thus of God Himself, even though I acknowledge that many working in the sciences do not see the person of God behind those laws. Also, I have noted in other threads that the science of evolution is not universally shunned by believing Christians, in fact there is a fairly large number of Bible believing, Resurrection teaching Christians that embrace old earth creationism that includes evolution as a possible approach to understanding.
Of the two churches I attend, the pastor of the traditionalist fundamentalist one seems to be openly disparaging of the sciences, particularly the Big Band and Evolution theories. I could reject this church and look for one more like the church of my young adulthood that had as members several physicists from the California aerospace industry, as well as the head of the Astronomy department at the local college. This congregation had a much more robust approach to the relationship between the sciences and faith. I don’t think that expecting for that kind of congregation is realistic in my current farm-oriented area is a realistic expectation.
But I note that it is much more important to be correct in understanding salvation than have a correct understanding of general revelation ( nature ). When I had a talk with the pastor in his office, I found that I could not tell about my conversion and acceptance without talking about hoe the sciences led me to the Lord, but the scriptures were required to understand it all with God as a _person_.
Having tentatively chosen that church and congregation, it is now my responsibility to be a blessing to them, as they are to me. As such, it is not for me to be over sensitive to the churches stance on these issues, even when they are partially based on misunderstanding of the sciences. Instead I seek to understand their view. It is possible that after they know me better and understand that I am not on a crusade to bend their testimony to my desires, we can have respectful discussions away from the view of those that may be drawing closer to making a decision for Christ and may this be confused by what might appear to be dissent.
This is to be sure that my desire to discuss the more meaty, if less central issue of the sciences does not hinder the providing tender potential or young-in-the-lord believers with the milk of salvation and working for Him.
As I have indicated in other threads, I look at physical laws as expressions of God’s nature, and note that physics and the other sciences are the studies of those laws, and thus of God Himself, even though I acknowledge that many working in the sciences do not see the person of God behind those laws. Also, I have noted in other threads that the science of evolution is not universally shunned by believing Christians, in fact there is a fairly large number of Bible believing, Resurrection teaching Christians that embrace old earth creationism that includes evolution as a possible approach to understanding.
Of the two churches I attend, the pastor of the traditionalist fundamentalist one seems to be openly disparaging of the sciences, particularly the Big Band and Evolution theories. I could reject this church and look for one more like the church of my young adulthood that had as members several physicists from the California aerospace industry, as well as the head of the Astronomy department at the local college. This congregation had a much more robust approach to the relationship between the sciences and faith. I don’t think that expecting for that kind of congregation is realistic in my current farm-oriented area is a realistic expectation.
But I note that it is much more important to be correct in understanding salvation than have a correct understanding of general revelation ( nature ). When I had a talk with the pastor in his office, I found that I could not tell about my conversion and acceptance without talking about hoe the sciences led me to the Lord, but the scriptures were required to understand it all with God as a _person_.
Having tentatively chosen that church and congregation, it is now my responsibility to be a blessing to them, as they are to me. As such, it is not for me to be over sensitive to the churches stance on these issues, even when they are partially based on misunderstanding of the sciences. Instead I seek to understand their view. It is possible that after they know me better and understand that I am not on a crusade to bend their testimony to my desires, we can have respectful discussions away from the view of those that may be drawing closer to making a decision for Christ and may this be confused by what might appear to be dissent.
This is to be sure that my desire to discuss the more meaty, if less central issue of the sciences does not hinder the providing tender potential or young-in-the-lord believers with the milk of salvation and working for Him.
My experience with those who ignore the science of real life and history do so because they really do not know how to explain "Old Earth and New Earth"
teachings. It is easier for them to just say......…."Well that is the way it is and if you are really a Christian you will believe as I do".
That has probably turned more people away from the Lord than anything else.
Science studies God's works. Their is no science without God, All of science is within God, thus the limitation. The Bible went beyond God's works by revealing the mind of God thus transcending the physical to the spiritual.
Well churches have all kinds of different people in them from all backgrounds. Depending on where you live a lot. I am used to being the odd one out in any congregation I attend. You will bring with you your unique views and talents which wont necessairly be the same as other peoples.
Try being the only chinese looking person in a group of 80 people. Most of them wont know how to use chopsticks and have no clue about the eastern way of viewing things, which is more holistic than the reductionist, western view. This wont affect salvation but just gives a different perspective. For me, the meat served up in western style churches is in huge chunks! Its not chopped up in bite size pieces making it easier to share and digest. Its also not served with enough vegetables lol and tends to be unbalanced.
Thenami, that's some heavy stuff.
My walk with Christ has been interesting. It took me over 50 years to get here, so I am still walking slowly to make sure I walk the right path. I do both milk and meat, but sometimes the meat is actually poultry to help me digest better.
I've been a member of my current church for almost a year. To date, I have not missed a single sermon and, as this weekend would attest, I spend a great deal of my time serving the church (this weekend, almost 12 hours between helping a local school paint on Saturday and providing security for two of the three services we had on Sunday). For the record, I have not missed a sermon because I do don't want to and I understand that we are saved by faith and not works.
At it turns out, I am the only member of my family that attends church. I guess you can say that I am the only person in my family that is actually taking the walk with Christ. The good news, if one can call it that, is that no one in my family has an issue with the new me and I do what I can to help them find their way as well. What can I tell yah; my son claims to be an atheist, daughter-in-law was raised as a Mormon and wants nothing to do with any church, and my wife is a non-practicing Catholic. Despite this insanity, we have been able to exist with no issues and, for the moment, I am working on the daughter-in-law
We (my church) also has what we call "small groups" which is basically a bible study groups. We meet on Mondays for around three hours. In my case, my small group consists of the same people I serve with as part of the church's security team. Aside from our Monday night meetings, we also communicate throughout the week through the WhatsApp application. This technology allows us to continue the fellowship seven days a week and I have found it a great way of lifting each other up and motivating us throughout the trials and tribulations that we all face from time to time.
As for me, I find myself very thirsty. I tend to spend most evenings reading the Bible (my daily bread) and as much of other sources as I can find. My struggle is that I am an academic by nature and find myself needing to look deeper into the background on who wrote what , when, to whom, and why (aka: context). As an example, we just finished reading the book of Jonah. I spent countless hours reading many debates over the great fish, a whale, etc. At the end of the day, this is about one of God's miracles and that is that. On the other hand, I did learn that the greatest fish we have is the whale shark. It has a mouth large enough to swallow a man, but a throat that is only around four inches wide (this is why it only feeds on plankton including copepods, krill, fish eggs, etc).
Anyway, just felt like sharing. I am, without question, a work in progress. While I spend most of my time recovering from the stumble, I like that I stand back up and keep on walking every time. Reading your comments helps a great deal.
rtm3039
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Science is a technical explanation of what God did/does. In his Word, God let us know what we need to know, now everything there is to know. Genesis makes no mention of when God created air (oxygen), but He did. We can guess it was on or before the fourth day, but this is just something He did not believe we needed to know:
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. Genesis 1: 3 - 5 (NIV)
"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day" 2 Peter 3:8 (NIV)