Progressing from Milk to Meat

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So basically, you are the guilty party? :)

Personally, my faith is my faith. I am open to any type of discussion, as long as it serves for a better understanding of what I believe, what others believe, and why they believe it. At the end of the day, it really just comes down to faith. Stated otherwise, “Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.” Hebrews 11:1.
Bingo......we have a winner!!!!:cool:

"Unwavering Faith"

Sincere, Unbendable - (opposite of wavering) - To believe God without question.
"Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful." (Heb. 10:23).
 
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What may be considered meat is anything that requires more than a simple reading to come to a useful understanding.

I may have turned this thread in the direction of the sciences when I expressed my approach to a possible dilema concerning attending a church where the teaching. regarding sciences is not in line with my views regarding sciences. My approach, by the way is to note that science, while important to me is not as important as salvation.

My original thought was that what is considered meat is different for different Christians, and I was expecting to hear what others considered meat.

When threads start to wander I am often blessed and challenged, and note that this often represent things individuals find important.
Hi, thanks for the reply,,, I think I need to “confess” the intention of my post :)

That post is not intended to “police” as if am a “moderator” to stick to the topic, and not to wander :)

I did back read, when Sciences and the Big Bang was first mentioned (actually there was a typo error as “Big Band”) the intention, as I understand, is to mention it as an example of “disagreement” on belief secular/Science belief between Christians… and not intended to go to the details of it, but rather on acceptance, understanding of one another.

So what is my intention of that post: I think it is more on the Young Earth and Old Earth “debate”.

As a member of the whole body of Christ, when parts of the body say the Eyes and Ear “exchanges” or “debate” on something, I feel the pain of the disagreement… am not sure what part of the body I am, maybe in between the left and right part of both eye brows, as am still learning, “milk stage” so to speak :)

So I think my post is just offering a reconciliation thought on the Young and Old Earth disagreement.

For the “passive readers” here who happen to be Young Earth or Old Earth, as far as I know about Science, there is not 1, not 2 or 3 but multiple explanations, Scientific Based, that will reconcile both thought… and as Paul have said in the Love Chapter: 1 Corinthians 13: we know partially, but eventually, we will know in full.

1COR 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

AND, I found this useful verse when Christians disagree on some topics:

1 Corinthians 3:21 “For everything belongs to you"
Every one of us on everything, every explanations belongs to us., may it be explanation number 1 or 2 or a Paul’s or Peter’s or Apollos’ explanations: “all are ours”… I may chose this explanation no. 1 and explanation number 2 can be in disagreement on no. 1, but both are mine, as sure, both makes sense btw.
1COR 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's;
1COR 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;
1COR 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's
.
Romans 14:3-6 Accept one another
As RTM3039 mentioned “Faith is my Faith” or Major mentioned “Unwavering Faith”: we have a position on the Young and Old Earth debate: and am steadfast on it.

BUT, regardless what it is on what side of the debate: as long as that thought gives honor to God, and we accept one another.

Similar to verse on those who regard the day or not regard the day: both do so for the Lord.

ROM 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
ROM 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
ROM 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
ROM 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
 
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I find the scientifically minded can split hairs over things (if not atoms) that arent really important and in the process create nuclear bombs. Thing is you cant mess with nature and what God created which He did with a particular purpose in mind, its up to you to ask Him to find it out.

When humans try to mess with nature it always turns out to be a mess. With God its all as it should be.

When people go on and on about 'the big bang' I just think 'is that the best you can come up with?' Lol. They cannot prove that the universe started with a 'big bang' but just assume it did. And whats with the name 'big bang' I mean really it sounds silly. Are we the product of a bomb going off by accident?
on the contrary....
 
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on the contrary....
...? So ernest rutherford didnt split the atom and in the process allow others to create the nuclear bomb? That was a big bang.

Not as big as what happened with Lake Taupo though. But thing is with Lake Taupo is, that explosion it didnt make everything radioactive like bombs dropping over Hiroshima and Nagasaki....
 
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...? So ernest rutherford didnt split the atom and in the process allow others to create the nuclear bomb? That was a big bang.

Not as big as what happened with Lake Taupo though. But thing is with Lake Taupo is, that explosion it didnt make everything radioactive like bombs dropping over Hiroshima and Nagasaki....
What i mean when i posted "on the contrary" is pertaining to your earlier post "I just dont pay any attention to debates as they arguing over how old the earth is"

i think you do in my personal observations, that you do pay attention on the issue, and i found it an interesting point of view on the topic that i am learning a lot, on things that i haven't considered as well...ie, i learned a lot on the many perspective on the topic.
 
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Oh! I mean I observe them but I myself am not partisan for either view. Meaning I dont like to take sides over it or argue about it. I couldnt tell you exactly how old earth is because Im not God and I'm not counting the years. It doesnt matter to me, all I know is its way older than I am.

Its like someone saying 'its old' 'no but your idea of old is young, Its way older! ' ?!? To anyone observing its like what? Huh? What are you arguing about now?
 
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Hi, thanks for the reply,,, I think I need to “confess” the intention of my post :)

That post is not intended to “police” as if am a “moderator” to stick to the topic, and not to wander :)

I did back read, when Sciences and the Big Bang was first mentioned (actually there was a typo error as “Big Band”) the intention, as I understand, is to mention it as an example of “disagreement” on belief secular/Science belief between Christians… and not intended to go to the details of it, but rather on acceptance, understanding of one another.

So what is my intention of that post: I think it is more on the Young Earth and Old Earth “debate”.

As a member of the whole body of Christ, when parts of the body say the Eyes and Ear “exchanges” or “debate” on something, I feel the pain of the disagreement… am not sure what part of the body I am, maybe in between the left and right part of both eye brows, as am still learning, “milk stage” so to speak :)

So I think my post is just offering a reconciliation thought on the Young and Old Earth disagreement.

For the “passive readers” here who happen to be Young Earth or Old Earth, as far as I know about Science, there is not 1, not 2 or 3 but multiple explanations, Scientific Based, that will reconcile both thought… and as Paul have said in the Love Chapter: 1 Corinthians 13: we know partially, but eventually, we will know in full.

1COR 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

AND, I found this useful verse when Christians disagree on some topics:

1 Corinthians 3:21 “For everything belongs to you"
Every one of us on everything, every explanations belongs to us., may it be explanation number 1 or 2 or a Paul’s or Peter’s or Apollos’ explanations: “all are ours”… I may chose this explanation no. 1 and explanation number 2 can be in disagreement on no. 1, but both are mine, as sure, both makes sense btw.


Romans 14:3-6 Accept one another
As RTM3039 mentioned “Faith is my Faith” or Major mentioned “Unwavering Faith”: we have a position on the Young and Old Earth debate: and am steadfast on it.

BUT, regardless what it is on what side of the debate: as long as that thought gives honor to God, and we accept one another.

Similar to verse on those who regard the day or not regard the day: both do so for the Lord.

ROM 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
ROM 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
ROM 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
ROM 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Well...….the truth is that there are occasions and issues over which well-meaning, sincere, God-loving Christians will not see eye to eye. That fact has been a reality in the Church since its inception and it will continue to be the case until the King comes back. Maybe it should be otherwise but it isn't. Perhaps we want to deny it but we can't.

The Apostle Paul accused the Apostle Peter of hypocrisy.

Paul and Barnabas had a sharp disagreement that caused them to part company.

So then what is going on???? We are all at different stages of our Christian journey towards maturity.

It is not issues that divide Christians and Churches; it's attitudes!
 
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rtm3039

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Well...….the truth is that there are occasions and issues over which well-meaning, sincere, God-loving Christians will not see eye to eye. That fact has been a reality in the Church since its inception and it will continue to be the case until the King comes back. Maybe it should be otherwise but it isn't. Perhaps we want to deny it but we can't.

The Apostle Paul accused the Apostle Peter of hypocrisy.

Paul and Barnabas had a sharp disagreement that caused them to part company.

So then what is going on???? We are all at different stages of our Christian journey towards maturity.

It is not issues that divide Christians and Churches; it's attitudes!
As I grow more mature in my walk, I more agree that there are some words not subject to interpretation: 30 “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these… 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Mark 12:30-31, 40 (NIV).

For others, there is a great deal of interpretation and more than one view can be correct. For this area, I see the applicability of 5 “One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.” Romans 14:5 (NIV)

rtm3039
 
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Well...….the truth is that there are occasions and issues over which well-meaning, sincere, God-loving Christians will not see eye to eye. That fact has been a reality in the Church since its inception and it will continue to be the case until the King comes back. Maybe it should be otherwise but it isn't. Perhaps we want to deny it but we can't.

The Apostle Paul accused the Apostle Peter of hypocrisy.

Paul and Barnabas had a sharp disagreement that caused them to part company.

So then what is going on???? We are all at different stages of our Christian journey towards maturity.

It is not issues that divide Christians and Churches; it's attitudes!
Yes Sir! i agree, i think it is more on the “attitude” in-between Christians… note: in between Christians: we share the same Salvation, the same Baptism, the same Master, the same Spirit.

The mechanics of Salvation, the mechanics of Baptism may differ from one Christian to another: but we share the same JUDGE, that is: we share the same MASTER that will righteously JUDGE what one belonging servant do to another belonging servant, that is: what we do or act, or attitude to one another :)

Mathew 18:32
32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
 

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As I grow more mature in my walk, I more agree that there are some words not subject to interpretation: 30 “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these… 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Mark 12:30-31, 40 (NIV).

For others, there is a great deal of interpretation and more than one view can be correct. For this area, I see the applicability of 5 “One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.” Romans 14:5 (NIV)

rtm3039
Hi Sir, not picking a fight or a debate :) just posting a thought for consideration. Repeating: just a thought for consideration.

Oh my, the readers of different background, active or passive posters, readers. or even the Moderators :)

When they see the word “fight” or “debate” may have a negative connotation, hey: that is the way I talk :)
… so pardon, give a little understanding..
and hoping to lighten up every one, nothing or every thing can be serious, it up to you :)

Indeed, it is not subject to interpretation on that in-between Christian (I underlined as it is somehow to highlight: in-between Christians

BUT

What if one got a “wrong god” as far as Christian or Judaism definition is concerned, and one did really love that wrong god (as far as Christian/Judaism definition is concerned) (Rule no. 1) and really love another fellow man like himself (I think Christians and non-Christians alike knows the same definition of a fellow man (Rule no. 2)

That is not a rhetorical question: what if one got a wrong god… it is a honest question.

Of course, I think am old enough that I have my own answer as well, but as a student, still subject to change upon learning more from more learned Christians.

That is my answer to my own question subject to change : as underlined: “really love” : only a JUDGE who can read what is in the heart of man can judge righteously , that is: only God.

To summarize: what am really trying to say, and to be transparent why I have this BIAS, I’ve been in a Buddhist country for sometime, got friends there there a second family to me when i was there.... and I would say: the whole creation are LONGING for SALVATION.

Romans 8:22-24 New International Version (NIV)
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have?
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Yes Sir! i agree, i think it is more on the “attitude” in-between Christians… note: in between Christians: we share the same Salvation, the same Baptism, the same Master, the same Spirit.

The mechanics of Salvation, the mechanics of Baptism may differ from one Christian to another: but we share the same JUDGE, that is: we share the same MASTER that will righteously JUDGE what one belonging servant do to another belonging servant, that is: what we do or act, or attitude to one another :)

Mathew 18:32
32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
I agree and we must also understand that in every single church there are what I like to call "Make Believers".

They know the lingo, the rights words to say and the right things to do but in their hearts they are just going through the motion of religion.
 
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As I grow more mature in my walk, I more agree that there are some words not subject to interpretation: 30 “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these… 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Mark 12:30-31, 40 (NIV).

For others, there is a great deal of interpretation and more than one view can be correct. For this area, I see the applicability of 5 “One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.” Romans 14:5 (NIV)

rtm3039
Yes sir, some things are "Essential" and can not be changed or liberalized.

An example is that there are NO Scriptures that prohibit a person from smoking tobacco. There are Scriptures that warn us about the things that harm us if we put them into our bodies but nothing that outright prohibits tobacco.

On the others hand, There are Scriptures that DEMAND that there is only one way to heaven and that is through the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

rtm3039

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Hi Sir, not picking a fight or a debate :) just posting a thought for consideration. Repeating: just a thought for consideration.

Oh my, the readers of different background, active or passive posters, readers. or even the Moderators :)

When they see the word “fight” or “debate” may have a negative connotation, hey: that is the way I talk :)
… so pardon, give a little understanding..
and hoping to lighten up every one, nothing or every thing can be serious, it up to you :)

Indeed, it is not subject to interpretation on that in-between Christian (I underlined as it is somehow to highlight: in-between Christians

BUT

What if one got a “wrong god” as far as Christian or Judaism definition is concerned, and one did really love that wrong god (as far as Christian/Judaism definition is concerned) (Rule no. 1) and really love another fellow man like himself (I think Christians and non-Christians alike knows the same definition of a fellow man (Rule no. 2)

That is not a rhetorical question: what if one got a wrong god… it is a honest question.

Of course, I think am old enough that I have my own answer as well, but as a student, still subject to change upon learning more from more learned Christians.

That is my answer to my own question subject to change : as underlined: “really love” : only a JUDGE who can read what is in the heart of man can judge righteously , that is: only God.

To summarize: what am really trying to say, and to be transparent why I have this BIAS, I’ve been in a Buddhist country for sometime, got friends there there a second family to me when i was there.... and I would say: the whole creation are LONGING for SALVATION.

Romans 8:22-24 New International Version (NIV)
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have?
Ok, first and foremost, I am not "that guy." I live debate, because this is how we learn and grow. So, not likely to find be getting offended by anyone that does not agree with me and takes the time to explain why.

Not fully able to understand the idea of "what if one got a wrong god"? I mean, I get the idea.... "Love the Lord your God..." takes on a whole new meaning, it "your God" is not our God. If I correctly understand you remarks, my answer would be that is unlikely because, if you find yourself reading Mark 12:30-31, you probably already know who the right God is.

Anyway, looking forward to you adding to this discussion, especiall if I totally failed at understanding your remarks.
 
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Not fully able to understand the idea of "what if one got a wrong god"? I mean, I get the idea.... "Love the Lord your God..." takes on a whole new meaning, it "your God" is not our God. If I correctly understand you remarks, my answer would be that is unlikely because, if you find yourself reading Mark 12:30-31, you probably already know who the right God is.
Hi, thanks for the reply…
and for the EFFORT :) , thanks for trying to understand what I meant. Am difficult to understand from time to time :)


And I think I got the point of your reply, in blue font underlined.

Following is my interpretation of Mark 12:30-31 that I think reading on some forum/thread not necessarily in this forum: some Christians may disagree. Thus: my interpretation of that verse can be a misinterpretation to other Christians.

And that is the point: it was mentioned in your post: “it was not subject to interpretation” but here is an example, my own personal belief is an interpretation I currently believe in, that other Christians may see as misinterpretation… or unless otherwise explained it was not :)

MK 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
MK 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.


I personally believe, in my opinion:

Reading or understanding those verse REQUIRES one to be a Christian. I agree to some extent. but as i understand it further, that other may not agree.

To know God, it is difficult.. but to know JESUS CHRIST, is easier to understand Jesus than God, at least for me.

It is difficult to understand God before I became a Christian, but I understand Jesus teachings… and knowing Jesus is to know God, no one can understand God, without going to accept Jesus. that is: no one can go to the Father except thru the Son, Jesus Christ.

BUT, here comes the interpretation.

There are those BEFORE Christ birth who does not know Jesus…

BUT, the essence of Salvation, that we are living in sin and that only God can provide salvation is there, thus, righteous men and women BEFORE Christ, is longing for SALVATION that only God can provide. Thus, THEY, therefore, in my own opinion: BELIEVES in JESUS CHRIST.

In the same manner, those men and women, righteous men and women in the PAST exists today AFTER CHRIST,,, they happen not to know JESUS, but they are longing for SALVATION. That they belong as well, they are SAVED as well.

And of course to satisfy the Criteria of Mark 12-30-31, these people OBSERVES the 2nd commandment, that is: the second commandment is LESSER to be misinterpreted because as human beings, we know our fellow men, and THESE people am referring to are those who observes the 2nd commandment.

BUT, NOTE.
It is a personal opinion of student reading the Bible

I think we are all LAWYERS

We can be an expert on understanding the CIVIL CODE, or the CRIMINAL CODE... and the CODE simply or CLEARLY states that one is suppose to go to JAIL.

But nevertheless, we remain as Lawyers, we leave the JUDGEMENT to the JUDGE Himself.
 
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rtm3039

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Hi, thanks for the reply…
and for the EFFORT :) , thanks for trying to understand what I meant. Am difficult to understand from time to time :)


And I think I got the point of your reply, in blue font underlined.

Following is my interpretation of Mark 12:30-31 that I think reading on some forum/thread not necessarily in this forum: some Christians may disagree. Thus: my interpretation of that verse can be a misinterpretation to other Christians.

And that is the point: it was mentioned in your post: “it was not subject to interpretation” but here is an example, my own personal belief is an interpretation I currently believe in, that other Christians may see as misinterpretation… or unless otherwise explained it was not :)

MK 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
MK 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.


I personally believe, in my opinion:

Reading or understanding those verse REQUIRES one to be a Christian. I agree to some extent. but as i understand it further, that other may not agree.

To know God, it is difficult.. but to know JESUS CHRIST, is easier to understand Jesus than God, at least for me.

It is difficult to understand God before I became a Christian, but I understand Jesus teachings… and knowing Jesus is to know God, no one can understand God, without going to accept Jesus. that is: no one can go to the Father except thru the Son, Jesus Christ.

BUT, here comes the interpretation.

There are those BEFORE Christ birth who does not know Jesus…

BUT, the essence of Salvation, that we are living in sin and that only God can provide salvation is there, thus, righteous men and women BEFORE Christ, is longing for SALVATION that only God can provide. Thus, THEY, therefore, in my own opinion: BELIEVES in JESUS CHRIST.

In the same manner, those men and women, righteous men and women in the PAST exists today AFTER CHRIST,,, they happen not to know JESUS, but they are longing for SALVATION. That they belong as well, they are SAVED as well.

And of course to satisfy the Criteria of Mark 12-30-31, these people OBSERVES the 2nd commandment, that is: the second commandment is LESSER to be misinterpreted because as human beings, we know our fellow men, and THESE people am referring to are those who observes the 2nd commandment.

BUT, NOTE.
It is a personal opinion of student reading the Bible

I think we are all LAWYERS

We can be an expert on understanding the CIVIL CODE, or the CRIMINAL CODE... and the CODE simply or CLEARLY states that one is suppose to go to JAIL.

But nevertheless, we remain as Lawyers, we leave the JUDGEMENT to the JUDGE Himself.
Ok, I am going to read this two more times and then get back to you. Initially, I must admit that I agree.