PvE - Why 7 Trumpets?

[mistmann]

Well......the idea of getting along peacefully sure did not last long!

Here is my EXACT quote..............
Now there are many who advocate that 70 AD is the date where the phrotic Word of God took place. They place Titus the Roman led his army in destroying Jerusalem, the temple and a million Jews. They actually teach that was the second coming of Christ. However I would point out that NONE of the things which are prophesied to take place when Jesus returns to the earth occured at the time of the Roman invasion and destruction. We can go around and round over this but the reality is that there WAS NO RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD REPORTED OR LISTED OR CONFIRMED.

No where in that statement is a referance to YOU in any way whatsoever. MANY is a fact that can not be denied and it has nothing to do with you.

Now from that comes your comment.........................
"I cannot believe you are trying to pull this trick yet again, creating the false illusion of an argument I have never made. Are you simply trying to manufacture an argument you CAN win because you have no answer to the one I am actually making? Or are you simply trying to discredit me by deceptively pretending I am making an argument that I have never made? I really have no idea why you keep doing this but you would be wise not to do it again because when you unleash it on somebody who properly understands and pays heed to Dan 12:7 you will find it turns around and bites your own Butt as I am about to let it do again and will do every time you try this trick."

That as usual is totally out of line for a believer to make to another believer and is very much out of line.

I in fact do agree you. IT is up to those who are wanting to know to read and understand the Biblical facts given to us.

Now as for Daniel 12:7.......I am thankful to you bringing that up as it gives me the opportunity to speak to it...

"Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished."

"a time, times, and a half".= 3 1/2 years and actually refers to the last half of the 7 year Tribulation period, when all the prophecies will be fulfilled.

"when they have made an end of breaking in pieces the power of the holy people" = is the second answer to the question of the time involved.

The literal Hebrew of "breaking in pieces the power" is SHATTERING THE HAND.....the hand being the emblem of active power. The correct understanding then of the original is of the outpouring of the curse on the desolated, holy people, Israel's lowest humiliation being the precourser of her exaltation.

The THEY of the text refers to the Antichrist and his powers.

Jesus said of the day of the Lord, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken,” Matt. 24:29. Concerning what effect these things will have upon the inhabitants of the earth Luke 21:26 says, “Men’s heart’s failing them for fear, and for looking after the things coming upon the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.”

Revelation describes in graphic terms the same fear upon the inhabitants of the earth that Luke 21:26 describes, “And, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” Rev. 6:12-17.

We have already commented on the great earthquake, no such thing happened in AD 70. Neither did these tremendous cosmic calamities! They comprise the same event, the day of the Lord. People were not running in fear to the rocks and mountains, and having heart attacks because of seeing these things in AD 70 (Luke 21:26). But, yet, the Past-tribs are going to tell us with a straight face that all THIS happened in AD 70! The great earthquake did not – neither the cosmic calamities in conjunction with it.

So how do the Past-tribs get around all this? Or, presume to get around all this? No problem, they say it is figurative - along with the second coming, the first resurrection, the millennial, and the entire book of Revelation. They insist that these celestial events did not occur actually in AD 70, but are metaphors, poetic language.

It's late here and I have to go so I will respond to the other stuff later but I just wanted to make this quick point before I do.

KNOWING that I have pointed out several times to you in past discussions that this has nothing whatsoever to do with the point I am making and has never been a belief I have held at any time you still choose to "try it on" again so please do not try and make me out to be the bad guy here by saying "Well......the idea of getting along peacefully sure did not last long!"

You are the one who has forced me to thoroughly debunk your argument yet again by the fact that you have chosen to raise it yet again, for what reason I do not know.

As to not claiming it is my argument your words are "We can go around and round over this but the reality is that there WAS NO RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD REPORTED OR LISTED OR CONFIRMED."

That says this is an argument WE are having. It isn't, it is an argument YOU are making and YOU are debunking (atheists call them strawman arguments even though they use them a lot themselves) it has nothing to do with me, it is all you and I am merely making sure that people understand that and why it is not an argument I would ever make because the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 have nothing whatsoever to do with the second coming of Christ.

Understand that *I* am not the one biting your butt. I am merely pointing out that it is your OWN argument that is biting you on the butt. I am merely letting it do it in the hope it will discourage you from trying to do it a forth or fifth time (I'm not sure, I've lost count of the number of times you have tried to do this).

Hopefully back tomorrow to respond to the other stuff here.

 

[Major]

It's late here and I have to go so I will respond to the other stuff later but I just wanted to make this quick point before I do.

KNOWING that I have pointed out several times to you in past discussions that this has nothing whatsoever to do with the point I am making and has never been a belief I have held at any time you still choose to "try it on" again so please do not try and make me out to be the bad guy here by saying "Well......the idea of getting along peacefully sure did not last long!"

You are the one who has forced me to thoroughly debunk your argument yet again by the fact that you have chosen to raise it yet again, for what reason I do not know.

As to not claiming it is my argument your words are "We can go around and round over this but the reality is that there WAS NO RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD REPORTED OR LISTED OR CONFIRMED."

That says this is an argument WE are having. It isn't, it is an argument YOU are making and YOU are debunking (atheists call them strawman arguments even though they use them a lot themselves) it has nothing to do with me, it is all you and I am merely making sure that people understand that and why it is not an argument I would ever make because the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 have nothing whatsoever to do with the second coming of Christ.

Understand that *I* am not the one biting your butt. I am merely pointing out that it is your OWN argument that is biting you on the butt. I am merely letting it do it in the hope it will discourage you from trying to do it a forth or fifth time (I'm not sure, I've lost count of the number of times you have tried to do this).

Hopefully back tomorrow to respond to the other stuff here.

Wrong again my friend.

I have forced you to do nothing what so ever!!!

You have DEBUNKED NOTHING!.

You are stating your belief and I do not agree with it and I am giving my belief in what the Scriptures teach.
You do not believe Daniel 9-12 have anything to do with the 2nd coming of Christ and I do.

As I you said and I agreed.....I OWN THAT BELIEF!

I am not making you out to be anything at all. Anyone can read your comments and that is all that is needed.

Your comment was..............
"I cannot believe you are trying to pull this trick yet again, creating the false illusion of an argument I have never made. Are you simply trying to manufacture an argument you CAN win because you have no answer to the one I am actually making? Or are you simply trying to discredit me by deceptively pretending I am making an argument that I have never made? I really have no idea why you keep doing this but you would be wise not to do it again because when you unleash it on somebody who properly understands and pays heed to Dan 12:7 you will find it turns around and bites your own Butt as I am about to let it do again and will do every time you try this trick."

That is what my referrance was to ...............""Well......the idea of getting along peacefully sure did not last long!" But you knew that already!

I said then and say again that your comment was out of line for a believer to say to another believer and was totally uncalled for!


If you want to comment further you are certainly welcome to do so but remember you are NOT DEBUNKING, neither are you correcting anyone. You are commenting!!!!

 

[mistmann]

Wrong again my friend.

I have forced you to do nothing what so ever!!!

You have DEBUNKED NOTHING!.

You are stating your belief and I do not agree with it and I am giving my belief in what the Scriptures teach.
You do not believe Daniel 9-12 have anything to do with the 2nd coming of Christ and I do.

As I you said and I agreed.....I OWN THAT BELIEF!

I am not making you out to be anything at all. Anyone can read your comments and that is all that is needed.

Your comment was..............
"I cannot believe you are trying to pull this trick yet again, creating the false illusion of an argument I have never made. Are you simply trying to manufacture an argument you CAN win because you have no answer to the one I am actually making? Or are you simply trying to discredit me by deceptively pretending I am making an argument that I have never made? I really have no idea why you keep doing this but you would be wise not to do it again because when you unleash it on somebody who properly understands and pays heed to Dan 12:7 you will find it turns around and bites your own Butt as I am about to let it do again and will do every time you try this trick."

That is what my referrance was to ...............""Well......the idea of getting along peacefully sure did not last long!" But you knew that already!

I said then and say again that your comment was out of line for a believer to say to another believer and was totally uncalled for!

If you want to comment further you are certainly welcome to do so but remember you are NOT DEBUNKING, neither are you correcting anyone. You are commenting!!!!

Major, I have no idea why you suddenly decided to rehash your 70-74AD spiel in the middle of a discussion about the 7 trumpets of Revelation, especially why you are claiming it is something WE are going around and around on when you are the only one who brings it up every time. The events of 70-74 AD have everything to do with the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 but neither has anything to do with the 7 trumpets of Revelation.

Having prayerfully considered the matter I have decided not to be drawn into your argument again and so will not be responding to your post. Firstly because it is of no relevance to this thread and secondly has the potential to drag yet another one of my threads way off topic as seems to be the pattern emerging in all of my recent threads. But do please keep in mind that you are the one choosing to repeatedly confront me and challenge me on my own threads and declare that your claims and not mine are the gospel truth. Do not try and make me out to be the aggressor here please.

I am sure people here having been made aware of Daniel 12:7 can judge for themselves what it does to the entire "70th week" theological arguments. So I will be leaving it at that.

 

[mistmann]

Yeah, I agree, thief in the night not good comparison especially when 1 Thess 4:16 is talking about rapture in the first place...lol, what I was thinking though, was more how the shout will not be heard by the unsaved, just the believers (Mat 5:8, John 11:40, Heb 9:28).

Be careful not to misinterprete these passages for we ARE told that EVERYBODY, believers and unbelievers will see and hear His second coming.

EG.
Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

BUT only the believers will see Him face to face .... and live.

The 7 trumpets are the wrath of God on the earth, tribulation for the saints spoken of above is completely different. The church of Christ is persecuted for being the church of Christ, persecuted for His names sake and now you are implying that the same church (Christs bride) will endure the wrath of God in the form of 7 trumpets. I do not see God doing that at all. God delivers His people from His wrath everytime (Egyptian plagues, Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah).

Even those who miss the rapture but reject the mark of the beast and die for it, will thereby escape the 7 trumpets.

Don't you see the 7 trumpets as God's wrath on the earth? I dont see how they can be confused with persecution they are such extreme events, that if they happened nobody would doubt it or wonder what it was.

Revelation does not declare the 7 trumpets as the wrath of God, only the 7 bowls/vials that come AFTER the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

Re 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Re 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Re 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Understand that the Trumpets of Israel were never used to signal punishment of Israel. They were used to signal the assembly of Israel for festivals, meetings, decision making and worship. Or as a call to battle AGAINST those who sought to punish Israel. OR to signal the departure of the SEVEN groups of Israel as they followed the Lord to the new place HE was taking them. They were a call to come together, to prepare for danger, or to journey. They were never used to signal punishment of the Lord's people.

 

[Major]

Major, I have no idea why you suddenly decided to rehash your 70-74AD spiel in the middle of a discussion about the 7 trumpets of Revelation, especially why you are claiming it is something WE are going around and around on when you are the only one who brings it up every time. The events of 70-74 AD have everything to do with the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 but neither has anything to do with the 7 trumpets of Revelation.

Having prayerfully considered the matter I have decided not to be drawn into your argument again and so will not be responding to your post. Firstly because it is of no relevance to this thread and secondly has the potential to drag yet another one of my threads way off topic as seems to be the pattern emerging in all of my recent threads. But do please keep in mind that you are the one choosing to repeatedly confront me and challenge me on my own threads and declare that your claims and not mine are the gospel truth. Do not try and make me out to be the aggressor here please.

I am sure people here having been made aware of Daniel 12:7 can judge for themselves what it does to the entire "70th week" theological arguments. So I will be leaving it at that.

Well, once again you seem to be mistaken. We have spoken to this comment once but here are again.

I said exactly this...........................

"Now there are many who advocate that 70 AD is the date where the phrotic Word of God took place. They place Titus the Roman led his army in destroying Jerusalem, the temple and a million Jews. They actually teach that was the second coming of Christ. However I would point out that NONE of the things which are prophesied to take place when Jesus returns to the earth occured at the time of the Roman invasion and destruction. We can go around and round over this but the reality is that there WAS NO RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD REPORTED OR LISTED OR CONFIRMED."

There is no mention of YOU in that comment. MANY is not YOU unless you choose that position. I like you but you just are not that important that everything said is about YOU. I was not referring to you at all but speaking to those who have the view I posted.

YOU then posted the following..................................
"I cannot believe you are trying to pull this trick yet again, creating the false illusion of an argument I have never made. Are you simply trying to manufacture an argument you CAN win because you have no answer to the one I am actually making? Or are you simply trying to discredit me by deceptively pretending I am making an argument that I have never made? I really have no idea why you keep doing this but you would be wise not to do it again because when you unleash it on somebody who properly understands and pays heed to Dan 12:7 you will find it turns around and bites your own Butt as I am about to let it do again and will do every time you try this trick.



​

 

[Major]

Major, I have no idea why you suddenly decided to rehash your 70-74AD spiel in the middle of a discussion about the 7 trumpets of Revelation, especially why you are claiming it is something WE are going around and around on when you are the only one who brings it up every time. The events of 70-74 AD have everything to do with the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 but neither has anything to do with the 7 trumpets of Revelation.

Having prayerfully considered the matter I have decided not to be drawn into your argument again and so will not be responding to your post. Firstly because it is of no relevance to this thread and secondly has the potential to drag yet another one of my threads way off topic as seems to be the pattern emerging in all of my recent threads. But do please keep in mind that you are the one choosing to repeatedly confront me and challenge me on my own threads and declare that your claims and not mine are the gospel truth. Do not try and make me out to be the aggressor here please.

I am sure people here having been made aware of Daniel 12:7 can judge for themselves what it does to the entire "70th week" theological arguments. So I will be leaving it at that.

SUPER!

Moving on!

 

[Major]

Be careful not to misinterprete these passages for we ARE told that EVERYBODY, believers and unbelievers will see and hear His second coming.

EG.
Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

BUT only the believers will see Him face to face .... and live.

Revelation does not declare the 7 trumpets as the wrath of God, only the 7 bowls/vials that come AFTER the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

Re 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Re 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Re 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Understand that the Trumpets of Israel were never used to signal punishment of Israel. They were used to signal the assembly of Israel for festivals, meetings, decision making and worship. Or as a call to battle AGAINST those who sought to punish Israel. OR to signal the departure of the SEVEN groups of Israel as they followed the Lord to the new place HE was taking them. They were a call to come together, to prepare for danger, or to journey. They were never used to signal punishment of the Lord's people.

I believe that the Scriptures tell us that the Trumpets are the second set of God's judgment program.

1st set is the Seals
2nd set is the Trumpets
3rd set is the Vial/Bowl

The 7th Seal judgment is the st of 7 Trumpet judgments.
The 7th Trumpet is the 3rd set of 7 Bowl judgments.

Rev. 16 is the pouring out of the VIAL judgments with chapter 17 and 18 being "parenthetical" explaining the destruction of the two Babylon's of the end times. One being religious and the other being economic.

Hope this helps.

 

[th1bill]

I hope that mistman will deal honestly with you gents but with his failure to answer certain questions and the heresy he insists on teaching I have chosen to ignore his input in the future and just warn the surfers of his Heretic nature.

 

[Rumely]

Let's keep the discussion focused on the issues material to the topic of the thread and refrain from impugning one another's character. How we treat one another in Christ weighs far more on Heavenly scales than do the particulars of our eschatology. If we claim maturity and insight in Christ, let us demonstrate that in our conduct with each other.

 

[Major]

Let's keep the discussion focused on the issues material to the topic of the thread and refrain from impugning one another's character. How we treat one another in Christ weighs far more on Heavenly scales than do the particulars of our eschatology. If we claim maturity and insight in Christ, let us demonstrate that in our conduct with each other.

Agreed! That is exactly what I have been saying all along!!!!!

 

[mistmann]

I believe that the Scriptures tell us that the Trumpets are the second set of God's judgment program.

1st set is the Seals
2nd set is the Trumpets
3rd set is the Vial/Bowl

The 7th Seal judgment is the st of 7 Trumpet judgments.
The 7th Trumpet is the 3rd set of 7 Bowl judgments.

Rev. 16 is the pouring out of the VIAL judgments with chapter 17 and 18 being "parenthetical" explaining the destruction of the two Babylon's of the end times. One being religious and the other being economic.

Hope this helps.

So we can judge this for ourselves to see if it is true or not can you explain WHERE you think the Bible declares the Seals and the Trumpets to be the second set of JUDGEMENTS (and I am presuming the Seals as the first set of judgements)? Or are you just expressing a personal opinion or tradional belief? Same with your comment about Chapters 17 and 18.

Something we must ALL understand and appreciate is that the AUTHORITY of the word of God does not come from those who read it, it comes from those who WROTE it. It is OK for us to say "I believe this or that". Or I think it means this or that. Or I was taught this or that. BUT such declarations have no AUTHORITY, they are merely opinions and conjectures, traditions, etc. and we must be sure to clearly distinguish between, and acknowledge, that which is according to the AUTHORITY of what has been WRITTEN (not the meaning we as readers give it but the clear meaning of the actual words as the Apostles and Prophets WROTE it) and those things we say that are just thoughts and interpretations or things we believe but which do not have the authority of the written word behind them.

All too often I have seen people being confuse and misled by those who speak as if from a position of authority but who do not have the authority of the word of God (the only authority of the truth we have) behind their words. In other words it does not accord with what has actually been written by the Prophets and Apostles of the Lord themselves and whose words have GREATER authority than any believer, church, theologist, minister, pastor, Reverend, etc. now or any time in the past. If we speak as if by authority it is important to make known the source of that claimed or inferred authority.

 

[Major]

So we can judge this for ourselves to see if it is true or not can you explain WHERE you think the Bible declares the Seals and the Trumpets to be the second set of JUDGEMENTS (and I am presuming the Seals as the first set of judgements)? Or are you just expressing a personal opinion or tradional belief? Same with your comment about Chapters 17 and 18.

Something we must ALL understand and appreciate is that the AUTHORITY of the word of God does not come from those who read it, it comes from those who WROTE it. It is OK for us to say "I believe this or that". Or I think it means this or that. Or I was taught this or that. BUT such declarations have no AUTHORITY, they are merely opinions and conjectures, traditions, etc. and we must be sure to clearly distinguish between, and acknowledge, that which is according to the AUTHORITY of what has been WRITTEN (not the meaning we as readers give it but the clear meaning of the actual words as the Apostles and Prophets WROTE it) and those things we say that are just thoughts and interpretations or things we believe but which do not have the authority of the written word behind them.

All too often I have seen people being confuse and misled by those who speak as if from a position of authority but who do not have the authority of the word of God (the only authority of the truth we have) behind their words. In other words it does not accord with what has actually been written by the Prophets and Apostles of the Lord themselves and whose words have GREATER authority than any believer, church, theologist, minister, pastor, Reverend, etc. now or any time in the past. If we speak as if by authority it is important to make known the source of that claimed or inferred authority.

By reading the Scriptures Misty. No more no less!

Lets see if I can help you since you are in fact asking.

RAPTURE OCCURS:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

New King James Version (NKJV)
The Comfort of Christ’s Coming

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[a]
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

A PROMINATE DIGNITARY MAKES A SEVEN YEAR PEACE TREATY WITH ISRAEL.

Daniel 9:27

New King James Version (NKJV)

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week(By all Bible scolars, this is a 7 year time frame)
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
THE SEVEN YEAR REIBULATION HAS NOW BEGUN. THAT BEING THE CASE WE GO TO REVELATION 6.

Revelation 6:1
First Seal: The Conqueror

Rev. 6:3
3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.”

This repeats itself all the way to the 8th chapter where in verse 1 where we see:

Revelation 8

Seventh Seal: Prelude to the Seven Trumpets

1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

If you raed it with the Holy Spirit giving you light you see that the 7th Seal is SILENCE and then in 8:6 we have.........

Revelation 8:6

New King James Version (NKJV)

Revelation 8:6

New King James Version (NKJV)

6 So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

2 So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.

 

[Major]

So we can judge this for ourselves to see if it is true or not can you explain WHERE you think the Bible declares the Seals and the Trumpets to be the second set of JUDGEMENTS (and I am presuming the Seals as the first set of judgements)? Or are you just expressing a personal opinion or tradional belief? Same with your comment about Chapters 17 and 18.

Something we must ALL understand and appreciate is that the AUTHORITY of the word of God does not come from those who read it, it comes from those who WROTE it. It is OK for us to say "I believe this or that". Or I think it means this or that. Or I was taught this or that. BUT such declarations have no AUTHORITY, they are merely opinions and conjectures, traditions, etc. and we must be sure to clearly distinguish between, and acknowledge, that which is according to the AUTHORITY of what has been WRITTEN (not the meaning we as readers give it but the clear meaning of the actual words as the Apostles and Prophets WROTE it) and those things we say that are just thoughts and interpretations or things we believe but which do not have the authority of the written word behind them.

All too often I have seen people being confuse and misled by those who speak as if from a position of authority but who do not have the authority of the word of God (the only authority of the truth we have) behind their words. In other words it does not accord with what has actually been written by the Prophets and Apostles of the Lord themselves and whose words have GREATER authority than any believer, church, theologist, minister, pastor, Reverend, etc. now or any time in the past. If we speak as if by authority it is important to make known the source of that claimed or inferred authority.

My perception is a little different than yours.

All to often my observation has been that some people, lacking higher education in Biblical studies and not being responsible to someone in a position of authority will come out with his/her own private interpretation of what they think the Bible says when in fact it does not say what they think. Then they have to work to make the Scriptures fit their thinking instead of understanding what God is revealing in those Scriptures. That process then tends to make one arrogant and without humility.

The standard of what is acceptable in religion for many is whether it satisfies the individual. Many "shop" for a religion that meets their personal preferences, treating the Scriptures as a salad bar-- picking things they like and passing over others. Many declare satisfaction with the course they have chosen in religion without ever considering the question, "Is God satisfied with my religion?"

The whole conclusion is not, serve God as you please, but "Fear God and keep His commandments" (Eccl. 12:13). Our purpose in daily activities and in worship should be to strive to please God. Those who truly seek to serve God will not be satisfied until they do this. We must be willing to test our practices and beliefs to see if they agree with the Scriptures. "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves" (2Cor. 13:5).

The only way to please God in all that we do is to follow His revealed will-- to simply read and study the Scriptures and follow them in all we do, not adding to them or taking away (2Jn. 9; Deut. 4:2). Those who fail to do this lack respect for the authority of God as Lord and Master. Paul declared, "And whatsoever ye do, in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord" (Col.3:17). To "do all in the name of the Lord" means to respect the authority of the Lord in everything. We must have God's authority for all that we do and that authority must be established from the Scriptures; for it is there that God has revealed His will for us.

So, our personal morality, conduct, religious beliefs, how we treat and enteract with others and things practiced in worship must be based on book, chapter, and verse. One may be satisfied with the manner in which they live and worship, while God may not be, making life and worship worthless before the Lord. As Jesus warned, "This people draweth nigh unto Me with their mouth, and honoureth Me with their lips; but their heart is far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matt. 15:8,9). Therefore, let us search the Scriptures to establish authority for all that we believe and practice showing respect God's authority.

Having given your comments some serious thought it seems to me that most people take if for granted that we are to give scripture the primary place and that everything else has to be lined up in relation to scripture. There is, indeed, an evangelical assumption, common in some circles, that evangelicals do not have any tradition. We simply open the scripture, read what it says, and take it as applying to ourselves: there the matter ends, and we do not have any ‘tradition’.

This is rather like the frequent Christian assumption that Baptists have no doctrine peculiar to themselves: it is merely that if something is true the Church believes it. This, though not itself a refutation of the claim not to have any ‘tradition’, is for the moment sufficient indication of the inherent unlikeliness of the claim’s truth, and I am confident that most people, facing the question explicitly, will not wish that the claim be looked into very hard.

But in my experience I still find two things to be the case, both of which give me some cause for concern.

First, there is an implied, and quite unwarranted, positivism: we imagine that we are ‘reading the text, straight’, and that if somebody disagrees with us it must be because they, unlike we ourselves, are secretly using ‘presuppositions’ of this or that sort. This is simply naïve, and actually astonishingly arrogant and dangerous.

Second, that process fuels the second point, which is that some Christians often use the phrase ‘authority of scripture’ when they mean the authority of the persons theology, since the assumption is made that we are the ones who know and believe what the Bible is saying. Now in light of such truth in these claims, they are by no means the whole truth, and to imagine that they are is to move from theology to ideology. If we are not careful, the phrase ‘authority of scripture’ can, by such routes, come to mean simply ‘the authority of MY position, as opposed to someone elses.

 

[mistmann]

By reading the Scriptures Misty. No more no less!

Lets see if I can help you since you are in fact asking.

RAPTURE OCCURS:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

New King James Version (NKJV)
The Comfort of Christ’s Coming

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[a]
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

A PROMINATE DIGNITARY MAKES A SEVEN YEAR PEACE TREATY WITH ISRAEL.

Daniel 9:27

New King James Version (NKJV)

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week(By all Bible scolars, this is a 7 year time frame)
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
THE SEVEN YEAR REIBULATION HAS NOW BEGUN. THAT BEING THE CASE WE GO TO REVELATION 6.

Revelation 6:1
First Seal: The Conqueror

Rev. 6:3
3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.”

This repeats itself all the way to the 8th chapter where in verse 1 where we see:

Revelation 8

Seventh Seal: Prelude to the Seven Trumpets

1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

If you raed it with the Holy Spirit giving you light you see that the 7th Seal is SILENCE and then in 8:6 we have.........

Revelation 8:6

New King James Version (NKJV)

Revelation 8:6

New King James Version (NKJV)

6 So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

2 So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.

All very interesting BUT you still have not provided the scripture verses that DECLARE the seals and trumpets are JUDGMENTS. THAT was the question asked. Nor, I note any Biblical authority for what you claimed about Rev 17 & 18.

But thanks for quoting Daniel 9:27 it reminded me of a very interseting fact that further cements the timing of this prophecy and the confirmation of the covenant.

Note the words "And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,"? People may be interested to know that when Herod rebuilt (and REMODELLED) the Temple he had added amidst much controvesy and contrary to the Mosaic Law a large golden eagle on one of the wings of the temple. I would have to check but I think the Eagle was a national emblem of the Roman Empire that Herod openly supported. The opening of the refurbished Temple in 63AD would be a natural occassion on which to renew the covenant that allowed it to be used for the worship of the Lord and not the Emperor. I don't think the Lord was happy with Herods redesign of HIS temple that HE designed.

 

[Major]

All very interesting BUT you still have not provided the scripture verses that DECLARE the seals and trumpets are JUDGMENTS. THAT was the question asked. Nor, I note any Biblical authority for what you claimed about Rev 17 & 18.

But thanks for quoting Daniel 9:27 it reminded me of a very interseting fact that further cements the timing of this prophecy and the confirmation of the covenant.

Note the words "And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,"? People may be interested to know that when Herod rebuilt (and REMODELLED) the Temple he had added amidst much controvesy and contrary to the Mosaic Law a large golden eagle on one of the wings of the temple. I would have to check but I think the Eagle was a national emblem of the Roman Empire that Herod openly supported. The opening of the refurbished Temple in 63AD would be a natural occassion on which to renew the covenant that allowed it to be used for the worship of the Lord and not the Emperor. I don't think the Lord was happy with Herods redesign of HIS temple that HE designed.

Well, I guess I can do it for you yet once again. Did you NOT read the post or did you read it and reject it???

The real problem for you Mist is very simple. The "End Times" and the book of the Revelation are impossible to understand without an accurate understanding of the book of Daniel and YOU HAVE pretty much rejected that book of God's Word. Revelation is actually an "Unfolding" of the book of Daniel. Many years ago I did a study on this and in the Revelation itself there are 404 verses. Of that amount, 265 contain lines that allude to 550 Old Testament referrances. That amounts to over 50%, So, if anypart of the Old Testamant is rejected, it will compromise the entire "end Time" prophecy.

Revelation 6:1-2

FIRST SEAL: The Conqueror

Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the SEALS; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

Now, in the time from the Rapture to Armageddon the series of JUDGMENTS under the SEALS, TRUMPETS and VIALS run their course. These are "DIVIVE" judgments which increase in severity as they progress.

The judgments are NOT contemporaneous but are in fact SUCESSIVE.
1st set is the SEAL judgments.....then the TRUMPET and then the VIAL judgments.

As I posted already for you...the 7th Seal judgment contain ALL the Trumpet judgments and the 7 Trumpet contains ALL the VIAL judgmenst.

Strict chronological order is followed.

As whether they are JUDMENTS or not.......all one has to do is READ the consequences of the opening of the SEALS, TRUMPETS and VIALS and we can see that the result is God's judment on the eart and its inhabinints.

BIBLICAL AUTHORITY???

The same authority YOU have my good friend in Christ. I am a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and He has given His Bible as a guide book to life and the future. Every single oerson has the authority to read and understand His Word because the same Holy Spirit that lives in YOU lives in ALL believers and NO ONE has an exclusive on Scripture!! Includeing YOU and especially ME!.

What other AUTHORITY does a person need to speak of the things Jesus has laid upon our hearts????

As for Revelation 17 & 18................They are what is called "PARENTHETICAL".

In other words, as the chronological order of the judgments go forth, John explains what is happening to the two Babylons.

Chapter 17 outlines the judgment on the great harlot, the apostate religious system that will exist in the Tribulation period. The unbelieving professing church went into the Tribulation (Rev. 2:22, 3:10) and a great religious system came into being.

Please take the time to read Revelation 13 and pay close attention to the SECOND BEAST of the Revelation.........
THE FALSE PROPHET!. He leads the world to "worship" the A/C and it is he who causes men to take the mark of the Beast/A/C.

Chapter 18 when one reads it clearly details the destruction of the Gentile world powers of the Northern confederacy. The destruction of the seat of the Beasts power is accomplished by a divine visitation of judgment by fire in Rev. 18:8.

Back to Daniel 9:27 again.............

You said..........
Note the words "And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,"?

The double-headed eagle is a common symbol in heraldry and vexillology. It is most commonly associated with the Byzantine Empire and the Holy Roman Empire. In Byzantine heraldry, the heads represent the dual sovereignty of the Emperor (secular and religious) and/or dominance of the Byzantine Emperors over both East and West. In the Holy Roman Empire's heraldry, it represented the Church and the State. Several Eastern European nations adopted it from the Byzantines and continue to use it as their national symbol to this day, the most prominent being Russia.

I guess you have a point there but it flew past me.

 

[mistmann]

My perception is a little different than yours.

All to often my observation has been that some people, lacking higher education in Biblical studies and not being responsible to someone in a position of authority will come out with his/her own private interpretation of what they think the Bible says when in fact it does not say what they think. Then they have to work to make the Scriptures fit their thinking instead of understanding what God is revealing in those Scriptures. That process then tends to make one arrogant and without humility.

The standard of what is acceptable in religion for many is whether it satisfies the individual. Many "shop" for a religion that meets their personal preferences, treating the Scriptures as a salad bar-- picking things they like and passing over others. Many declare satisfaction with the course they have chosen in religion without ever considering the question, "Is God satisfied with my religion?"

The whole conclusion is not, serve God as you please, but "Fear God and keep His commandments" (Eccl. 12:13). Our purpose in daily activities and in worship should be to strive to please God. Those who truly seek to serve God will not be satisfied until they do this. We must be willing to test our practices and beliefs to see if they agree with the Scriptures. "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves" (2Cor. 13:5).

The only way to please God in all that we do is to follow His revealed will-- to simply read and study the Scriptures and follow them in all we do, not adding to them or taking away (2Jn. 9; Deut. 4:2). Those who fail to do this lack respect for the authority of God as Lord and Master. Paul declared, "And whatsoever ye do, in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord" (Col.3:17). To "do all in the name of the Lord" means to respect the authority of the Lord in everything. We must have God's authority for all that we do and that authority must be established from the Scriptures; for it is there that God has revealed His will for us.

So, our personal morality, conduct, religious beliefs, how we treat and enteract with others and things practiced in worship must be based on book, chapter, and verse. One may be satisfied with the manner in which they live and worship, while God may not be, making life and worship worthless before the Lord. As Jesus warned, "This people draweth nigh unto Me with their mouth, and honoureth Me with their lips; but their heart is far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matt. 15:8,9). Therefore, let us search the Scriptures to establish authority for all that we believe and practice showing respect God's authority.

Having given your comments some serious thought it seems to me that most people take if for granted that we are to give scripture the primary place and that everything else has to be lined up in relation to scripture. There is, indeed, an evangelical assumption, common in some circles, that evangelicals do not have any tradition. We simply open the scripture, read what it says, and take it as applying to ourselves: there the matter ends, and we do not have any ‘tradition’.

This is rather like the frequent Christian assumption that Baptists have no doctrine peculiar to themselves: it is merely that if something is true the Church believes it. This, though not itself a refutation of the claim not to have any ‘tradition’, is for the moment sufficient indication of the inherent unlikeliness of the claim’s truth, and I am confident that most people, facing the question explicitly, will not wish that the claim be looked into very hard.

But in my experience I still find two things to be the case, both of which give me some cause for concern.

First, there is an implied, and quite unwarranted, positivism: we imagine that we are ‘reading the text, straight’, and that if somebody disagrees with us it must be because they, unlike we ourselves, are secretly using ‘presuppositions’ of this or that sort. This is simply naïve, and actually astonishingly arrogant and dangerous.

Second, that process fuels the second point, which is that some Christians often use the phrase ‘authority of scripture’ when they mean the authority of the persons theology, since the assumption is made that we are the ones who know and believe what the Bible is saying. Now in light of such truth in these claims, they are by no means the whole truth, and to imagine that they are is to move from theology to ideology. If we are not careful, the phrase ‘authority of scripture’ can, by such routes, come to mean simply ‘the authority of MY position, as opposed to someone elses.

As I read through your post I note you speak as if speaking of others but not yourself. Even when issuing his severe warning in Galatians 1:8 I note the first thing Paul did was to include HIMSELF in that warning. This raised in my mind several questions that I am sure would have occurred to most who read your post. To avoid a lot of words back and forth I, and I am sure, many others here would be interested in your answer to those questions. For ease of reference I will number them.

Question 1:
Do you include yourself in the warnings you have given? (Perhaps it is in there but I missed it due to the lengh of the post.)

Question 2:
If yes then on what basis should people believe you are telling the truth? By the authority of your own word, the word of a church, or this or that theology, or by the WRITTEN word of the Lord? Whose word should they most trust?

Question 3:
If no then by what divine providence do you proclaim exemption from your word, character, spirit, and motivation being tested and tried along with everybody else's?

Question 4:
Should a person believe what you (Major) SAYS the Bible says, or should they read it for themselves and SEE for themselves what it actually says?"

Question 5:
An Orthodox Christian, a Protestant Christian, and an unaligned Christian walk into a Bible Study .....
By some strange coincidence they all disagree on the meaning of a passage in the Bible.
The Orthodox Christian says "I've been taught by long tradition it means this ..."
The Protestant Christian says "I've been taught by those who should know that, that is a wrong interpretation and it really means this ...."
The unaligned Christian says "Being unencumbered by the many errors of traditional teachings I see that the actual meaning of the words is this ..."

The question is this. In this scenerio which has the GREATER authority and should be the one to be believed as true (they can't all be true because they are contradictory):-

A: The word of the Orthodox Christian?
B: The word of the Protestant Christian?
C: The Word of the Unaligned Christian?
or ...
D: The actual clear and INDEPENDENT linguistic and grammatical meaning of the WRITTEN words the LORD Himself has chosen to write?" (In other words what the words themselves actually say when read in a proper grammatical and linguistic fashion.)

Question 6:
If you answered D to Q4 and so aknowledged that it is the Lord Himself who has the final and deciding word on the true meaning of Scripture then should all three strive to agree with each other or all three with the actual WRITTEN word of the Lord?

Question 7:
If it is the Lord and not man who is the ultimate and SOLE decider and revealer of truth which of the three is justified in getting angry and offended and abusive and accusatory because the other two do not agree with THEIR interpretation of Scripture? Whose truth is it OURS ... or God's? Whose word must be accorded with OURS .... or God's???

And just to show it is not a trap or debate I will give you my own answers first.

Q1: I always openly encourage people to test my word against the word of God and facts of reality to see for themselves if what I say is true or not. So I always include myself as one whose words should be tested and tried in any warning about whose word should and should not be trusted. (In other words do not believe MY word, believe the word of God.)

Q2: Without a doubt the WRITTEN word of God above the word of ANY man, church or theology, past, present, or future.

Q3: I effectively answered Yes to Q1 so Q3 does not apply to me.

Q4: They should not just believe what I say, they should read it and see for themselves what it says.

Q5: Option D without the slightest hesitation.

Q6: ALL should strive to accord with the ACTUAL written word of God.

Q7 No man is justified in such behaviour. Even if they ARE right it is by the grace of God alone. Truth is not for OUR glory but the Glory of the Lord. The gift of truth humbles those who receive it, it does not puff them up with so much pride that they lash out at anybody who dares not to believe THEIR word is the truth. It is the word of God that is the test of truth, not ours. Those who have the truth have no objection to their word being tested against the word of God because they THEMSELVES are constantly testing it against the word of God to be certain it DOES actually accord. That THEY know it accords is sufficient even if nobody else believes it for they understand that the gift of truth comes from THEIR relationship with the Lord, not their relationship to others.

 

[mistmann]

Well, I guess I can do it for you yet once again. Did you NOT read the post or did you read it and reject it???

The real problem for you Mist is very simple. The "End Times" and the book of the Revelation are impossible to understand without an accurate understanding of the book of Daniel and YOU HAVE pretty much rejected that book of God's Word. Revelation is actually an "Unfolding" of the book of Daniel. Many years ago I did a study on this and in the Revelation itself there are 404 verses. Of that amount, 265 contain lines that allude to 550 Old Testament referrances. That amounts to over 50%, So, if anypart of the Old Testamant is rejected, it will compromise the entire "end Time" prophecy.

Revelation 6:1-2

FIRST SEAL: The Conqueror

Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the SEALS; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

Now, in the time from the Rapture to Armageddon the series of JUDGMENTS under the SEALS, TRUMPETS and VIALS run their course. These are "DIVIVE" judgments which increase in severity as they progress.

The judgments are NOT contemporaneous but are in fact SUCESSIVE.
1st set is the SEAL judgments.....then the TRUMPET and then the VIAL judgments.

As I posted already for you...the 7th Seal judgment contain ALL the Trumpet judgments and the 7 Trumpet contains ALL the VIAL judgmenst.

Strict chronological order is followed.

As whether they are JUDMENTS or not.......all one has to do is READ the consequences of the opening of the SEALS, TRUMPETS and VIALS and we can see that the result is God's judment on the eart and its inhabinints.

BIBLICAL AUTHORITY???

The same authority YOU have my good friend in Christ. I am a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and He has given His Bible as a guide book to life and the future. Every single oerson has the authority to read and understand His Word because the same Holy Spirit that lives in YOU lives in ALL believers and NO ONE has an exclusive on Scripture!! Includeing YOU and especially ME!.

What other AUTHORITY does a person need to speak of the things Jesus has laid upon our hearts????

As for Revelation 17 & 18................They are what is called "PARENTHETICAL".

In other words, as the chronological order of the judgments go forth, John explains what is happening to the two Babylons.

Chapter 17 outlines the judgment on the great harlot, the apostate religious system that will exist in the Tribulation period. The unbelieving professing church went into the Tribulation (Rev. 2:22, 3:10) and a great religious system came into being.

Please take the time to read Revelation 13 and pay close attention to the SECOND BEAST of the Revelation.........
THE FALSE PROPHET!. He leads the world to "worship" the A/C and it is he who causes men to take the mark of the Beast/A/C.

Chapter 18 when one reads it clearly details the destruction of the Gentile world powers of the Northern confederacy. The destruction of the seat of the Beasts power is accomplished by a divine visitation of judgment by fire in Rev. 18:8.

Back to Daniel 9:27 again.............

You said..........
Note the words "And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,"?

The double-headed eagle is a common symbol in heraldry and vexillology. It is most commonly associated with the Byzantine Empire and the Holy Roman Empire. In Byzantine heraldry, the heads represent the dual sovereignty of the Emperor (secular and religious) and/or dominance of the Byzantine Emperors over both East and West. In the Holy Roman Empire's heraldry, it represented the Church and the State. Several Eastern European nations adopted it from the Byzantines and continue to use it as their national symbol to this day, the most prominent being Russia.

I guess you have a point there but it flew past me.

Firstly to clarify a couple of things. Nowhere have I declared I have rejected or do not believe the prophecies of Daniel and I am certain the moderators who are no doubt monitoring this thread are going to take notice of the number of times you have falsely accused me of things. Once or twice can be passed off as accidental. When it happens time after time it becomes a pattern of behaviour and indicator of nature.

I do not reject the Book of Daniel and I believe every word of Daniel, but I am astute enough in my reading of it to notice it consists of a number of INDEPENDENT prophecies relating to different matters and different TIMES. The book of Daniel is not a book to be just mashed together as if it is all one prophesy and all relating to the same event.

The significance of the Eagle Herod had mounted on the wing of the Temple that you say has somehow escaped you is as follows. Although I am surprised it would escape anybody familiar with the prophecies of Daniel and the events leading up to 74AD.

In tearing down and reconstructing the Temple according to his OWN design and not the design the Lord specified The Temple was no longer the temple the Lord built but the Temple Herod built. In fact it was known as "Herod's Temple". Considering it was built to bring glory and prestige to Herod and considering all the shennanigans that went on in it and around it during its construction it is not hard to accept that it had become an abomination in the eyes of the Lord and no longer HIS Holy Temple. Then on the wing of this temple Herod had erected a large Golden Eagle as a symbol of ROME's protection over the Temple (as if the Lord needed Rome to protect the Temple). The desolation Daniel 9-12 speaks of comes by way of Rome and its Emperor. Reference to "the one who makes desolate" is a reference to the one who brings desolation on Israel - the Roman Empire. And there sitting on the wing of Herod's Temple, sitting where the Lord's temple USE to be is the national symbol of "the one who makes desolate.

The fulfilment of ALL of the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 form part of official world history in the years leading up to 74AD. This is yet another part of the prophecy that was fulfilled and shows for certain (along with every single prophecy that was also fulfilled in those years) that the Prophecies of Daniel 9-12 relate to the years leading up to and including 74AD and NOT to the second coming of Christ. Fulfilment of ALL of the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 are recorded as fulfilled on or before 74AD by official world history. The point is if you are still waiting for some of them to come to pass sometime in the future you are waiting in vain. And while you are waiting for and expecting prophecies that have already come and gone you will miss the prophecies that actually ARE yet to come because you are still expecting these already fulfilled prophecies to occur BEFORE them.

But as to the rest of the post I did not ask for your opinion as to why YOU think they are judgements, I asked you where the Lord HIMSELF declares them to be judgements. It is HIS word, not YOUR opinion that is the truth.

 

[chili]

Yes we r watching very closely. Remember to pray before you post, We r ALL learning things of different interpretations and understandings. Everybody has a different view but it does not make 1 view wrong. Put on the other mans shoe n see if it fits in a different perspective.
Peace to all of you

 

[Major]

Firstly to clarify a couple of things. Nowhere have I declared I have rejected or do not believe the prophecies of Daniel and I am certain the moderators who are no doubt monitoring this thread are going to take notice of the number of times you have falsely accused me of things. Once or twice can be passed off as accidental. When it happens time after time it becomes a pattern of behaviour and indicator of nature.

I do not reject the Book of Daniel and I believe every word of Daniel, but I am astute enough in my reading of it to notice it consists of a number of INDEPENDENT prophecies relating to different matters and different TIMES. The book of Daniel is not a book to be just mashed together as if it is all one prophesy and all relating to the same event.

The significance of the Eagle Herod had mounted on the wing of the Temple that you say has somehow escaped you is as follows. Although I am surprised it would escape anybody familiar with the prophecies of Daniel and the events leading up to 74AD.

In tearing down and reconstructing the Temple according to his OWN design and not the design the Lord specified The Temple was no longer the temple the Lord built but the Temple Herod built. In fact it was known as "Herod's Temple". Considering it was built to bring glory and prestige to Herod and considering all the shennanigans that went on in it and around it during its construction it is not hard to accept that it had become an abomination in the eyes of the Lord and no longer HIS Holy Temple. Then on the wing of this temple Herod had erected a large Golden Eagle as a symbol of ROME's protection over the Temple (as if the Lord needed Rome to protect the Temple). The desolation Daniel 9-12 speaks of comes by way of Rome and its Emperor. Reference to "the one who makes desolate" is a reference to the one who brings desolation on Israel - the Roman Empire. And there sitting on the wing of Herod's Temple, sitting where the Lord's temple USE to be is the national symbol of "the one who makes desolate.

The fulfilment of ALL of the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 form part of official world history in the years leading up to 74AD. This is yet another part of the prophecy that was fulfilled and shows for certain (along with every single prophecy that was also fulfilled in those years) that the Prophecies of Daniel 9-12 relate to the years leading up to and including 74AD and NOT to the second coming of Christ. Fulfilment of ALL of the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 are recorded as fulfilled on or before 74AD by official world history. The point is if you are still waiting for some of them to come to pass sometime in the future you are waiting in vain. And while you are waiting for and expecting prophecies that have already come and gone you will miss the prophecies that actually ARE yet to come because you are still expecting these already fulfilled prophecies to occur BEFORE them.

But as to the rest of the post I did not ask for your opinion as to why YOU think they are judgements, I asked you where the Lord HIMSELF declares them to be judgements. It is HIS word, not YOUR opinion that is the truth.

From your own post #14 of this same thread........................

"In Daniel 12:7 we find Daniel, the Angels, and ultimately the Lord Himself EMPHATICALLY and CLEARLY declaring that the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 come to an END when the scattering of the power of the Holy People is accomplished - NOT the second coming of Christ which we know from many places in the Bible comes well after this. The Prophecies of Daniel 9-12 include the FIRST coming of Christ but have NOTHING to do with the second coming of Christ.

We know WITHOUT DOUBT from Dan 12:7 that the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 ENDED in 74AD with the fall and destruction of the LAST city, stronghold, and high place of Israel, MASADA, and the scattering of the Holy people among the Heathen Nations in accordance with the curses of Leviticus 26:14-46. We also know from Dan 12:7 WITHOUT A DOUBT that the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 have nothing whatsoever to do with the SECOND coming of Christ, only with the first coming of Christ.

The existence of Daniel 12:7 alone is sufficient to blow the ENTIRE "70th Week" theology well and truly out of the water because Daniel Himself declares His prophecies END with the scattering of Israel among the nations NOT the second coming of Christ. Why the adherents of the "70th Week" theologies choose to totally ignore the advice of Daniel Himself and erroneously try and apply the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 to the second coming of Christ is beyond me. A simple check of what the prophecy of Daniel itself actually says is sufficient to see the obvious fundamental and fatal error their theology has made. A further check of official world history which shows that all of the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 did indeed ALL come to pass on and before 74AD exactly as prophesied, will close the case entirely.

Now...........I am just an old country boy from Alabama, and some people think that we are hicks and sticks and such. BUT............I learned something a long time ago that has heped me through life. Here it is my fried.........................

IF IT LOOKS LIKE A DUCK AND IT QUACKS LIKE A DUCK AND IT WALKS LIKE A DUCK..............IT IS A DUCK!!!!

Proverbs 24:12 confirms that old country belief.
"If thou sayest Behold we knew it not, doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it??? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he tender to every man according to his works".

In other words, you do not have to do the deed to be guility of doing the deed my dear friend.

Jesus confirmed this by telling us that a man does not have to commit adultry to be guilty of adultry but all he has to do is lust after a woman.

After reading your own words from comment #14:
I do not understand how you can say this............................

" Nowhere have I declared I have rejected or do not believe the prophecies of Daniel and I am certain the moderators who are no doubt monitoring this thread are going to take notice of the number of times you have falsely accused me of things. Once or twice can be passed off as accidental. When it happens time after time it becomes a pattern of behaviour and indicator of nature.
I do not reject the Book of Daniel and I believe every word of Daniel, but I am astute enough in my reading of it to notice it consists of a number of INDEPENDENT prophecies relating to different matters and different TIMES. The book of Daniel is not a book to be just mashed together as if it is all one prophesy and all relating to the same event."

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it must therefore be a duck.!!!!!

As for the moderators watching ..........WONDERFUL!

They already know that every single thing I have posted is Biblical and comes from the Orthodoxy of the Christian faith and I welcome and ENCOURAGE their participation and their examination. In fact I expect it and demand it!!!!

 

[Major]

Now...............what do you say that YOU get back to the reason you started this thread.......... PvE - Why 7 Trumpets?..........because what we are doing now is certainly not it!!!