re: Lazarus, the parable of the rich man and the beggar

Major said:
"The place is not the issue, it's the timing that is the issue?????"

Are you kidding all of us? LOCATION IS THE CONTEXT! We have been talking about Hell, Luke 16 being real or make believe and now you are telling us that it is all about TIMING instead of location???

TIMING........OK, here is the time line for you.........We die!
The bodies of all people go into the ground from whence they came.
The SPIRITS of the saved go to be with God.
The SPIRITS of the wicked lost go to Hades/Sheol where they are "reserved" unto the judgment day.
The bodies of the saved will be resurrected unto life at the 1st Resurrection and glorified and we will be with the Lord for Eternity!!!
The bodies of the wicked lost are "RESERVED" in Hades/Sheol until after the 1000 years rule of Christ.
The bodies of the wicked lost are then resurrected unto DEATH at the 2nd resurrection.
They are lost and judged by Christ and cast into the Lake of Fire where they will be tormented day and night eternally. NO 2nd chances. No Purgatory!

THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE VERSE IN THE SCRIPTURES THAT TEACH ANNIALIHATION OF THE BODY/SPIRIT!!!. NO NOT ONE!!!!

Phoneman....We all know what you are doing. You are making up stuff to fit what YOU want it to be like instead of understanding WHAT IT IS going to be like. You are making the classic mistake of many others. The Bible is clear and understandable and it says exactly what God wants us to know. YOU however are more concerned with trying to make us understand WHAT YOU WANT IT TO BE.

We (Me) will never come to your side of this debate my brother. Never.
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Yes, Peter's words in 2 Peter 2:9 are about the timing of the punishment of the wicked, as anyone reading the Bible with his eyes open can see.
As for if Annihilation is in the Bible, I'll give you two easy verses:
  1. "Never shalt thou be anymore" Ezekiel 28, God referring to Satan's fate.
  2. "They shall be as though they had not been." Obadiah 16, referring to the fate of "all flesh" that continue in rebellion.
  • **BONUS** "They shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the Lord of hosts" Jeremiah 51, referring to the same fate, which is the sleep of a perpetual death from which there will be no resurrection.
If God says a thing is going to cease to "be", then we ought to stop insisting that the thing will continue to "be" for all eternity in flames of torment.
 
Major said:
Now, let me understand this. YOU said.......
"the RIGHTEOUS, the SAVED are going to be in the fire and the wicked lost will be burned up and consumed."

There are ZERO- NONE- NADA Scriptures that support what you just stated and now because I called you out I am the one making constant indictment?????

Are you reading what you say and thinking about it before hitting the "post" key.

I am afraid this has become too tedious and circular for me Phoneman. I really do have more things to do than debate this with you. If YOU want to believe your opinions instead of Gods Word, that is your choice. I am going to withdraw from this and leave it with others because there is simply nothing else left to be said.

Have a blessed day.
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Brother, do you even own a Bible? Of COURSE "our God is a consuming fire" and to that white hot, brilliant GLORY we "shall be caught up to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord", silly! It is the wicked that will not be able to stand in the sight of such GLORY and will be burned up and pass out of existence.
 
As to a person's spirit and soul after they die, we have examples which give some understanding. Enoch and Elijah did not die, they were taken up from this earth, so obviously, they are still alive and exist.
Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

So much for the dead not speaking.

John 8:
51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”
52 Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”

54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

Clearly, Abraham is alive. He never saw spiritual death as Jesus inferred, which the Jews in this passage could not or did not understand.

Again in Mark 12:26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

This is also restated in Luke 20. He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They are alive, because He is the God of the living.
BTW, Moses and Elijah were both at Jesus' transfiguration. Alive and well. Even though Moses' old body was still dead.
 
Big Moose said:
As to a person's spirit and soul after they die, we have examples which give some understanding. Enoch and Elijah did not die, they were taken up from this earth, so obviously, they are still alive and exist.
Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

So much for the dead not speaking.

John 8:
51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”
52 Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”

54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

Clearly, Abraham is alive. He never saw spiritual death as Jesus inferred, which the Jews in this passage could not or did not understand.

Again in Mark 12:26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

This is also restated in Luke 20. He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They are alive, because He is the God of the living.
BTW, Moses and Elijah were both at Jesus' transfiguration. Alive and well. Even though Moses' old body was still dead.
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Bro, you have a said a lot here, so this will take some time to respond to each point:
  • Enoch and Elijah never died, so I can't see how their experience is relevant to a discussion on the state of the dead.
  • It is not Abel who speaks, but "through it"- his obedience to God - through which he speaks. In other words, his testimony that he left written in blood is what speaks to us, not Abel himself.
  • Jesus is referring to the eternal, Second Death when He says that the saints will never die, for He Himself acknowledged saints do die the First Death: "Jesus said to them plainly Lazarus is dead."
  • You say that Abraham in death rejoiced to see Jesus' day? Impossible, for both David and King Hezekiah declare that the dead can't praise God. Abraham's rejoicing over seeing Jesus' day happened at Mount Moriah with Isaac, when he understood through that painful object lesson the Plan of Salvation, not after he died and was buried.
  • When Jesus says that God is "the God of the living", He is actually saying that to the Sadducees to establish proof of the resurrection, not as proof that they are yet alive in heaven before they are resurrected from death. William Tyndale accused the Catholic Sir Thomas More (a member of the very church responsible for dragging the doctrines of the Immortal Soul, Eternal Torment, Salvation by Works/Rites/Rituals/Sacraments, and every other pagan doctrine found among Christendom today) of twisting the very same verse:
“And when he (More) proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, ‘If God be their God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead;’ there he stealeth away Christ’s argument, wherewith He proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints should rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ’s argument of none effect." - An Answer To Sir Thomas More's Dialogue, 118
  • Moses was not dead when he appeared to Jesus with Elijah, for "the dead have no more a portion in anything that is done under the sun" (Eccl. 9:6) which would include coming down to mountains and talking to people. He was resurrected (Jude 9) amid the protests of Satan and was in his glorified body alive in the Mount of Transfiguration. Moses and Elijah represent the two classes of saints that will meet Jesus at His Second Coming: those who have died and will be resurrected to meet the Lord in the air, and those who have never tasted death who will meet Him in the air as well.
 
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C1oudwatch3r said:
Someone quoted to me once the following, when I asked them if accepting foodbank benefits is considered begging:
Psa 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
I got the impression that they felt that yes, it was begging to accept foodbank food.

Then I asked if Lazarus, the beggar who died and went to heaven, was not considered righteous. Again, I was referred to the Pslam 37:25. I still do not know if Lazarus was righteous even though he was begging.

Also, do you think the parable of Lazarus and the rich man to be literally true as well as metaphorically true? This is the only parable in which Jesus actually mentions the name of a person. The reason I ask is because if it is literal and really did take place, then that would mean the conversation between Abraham and the rich man would be true, and that there is really a chasm between they cannot cross but can apparently see/hear/talk to each other.

I would be grateful for any input and views.
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In all THE parables he says what shall I liken the kingdom of God...
In this account he said "there was a certain rich man ............
It is not therefore a metaphor or parable it is teaching about hell and memories and how a man can be perceived to be very rich .yet in truth is very poor and a man who is perceived to be very poor was in fact very rich.

it cant be said he was not counted righteous for how would he have finished up in the bosom of Abraham if he had not been.
Though I cannot as yet think how to resolve your conundrum. Save I know this . That all apparent contradictions and paradoxes are resolved IN Christ ,never outside .

in Christ
gerald
 
Abdicate said:
@Phoneman777 and @Major you're both going back and forth and neither of you want to change so why continue going back and forth arguing and coming close to receiving warning points. Time to move on I think.
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Big Moose said:
"You are therefore greatly mistaken." The Bible still speaks today.
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If a man cannot be heard or understood unless he gives his breath or life to his words. How much less is God heard or understood when men will only take the body of truth that is to say the Bible and are not willing to accept or follow the Spirit of truth as to its right interpretation?

in Christ
gerald
 
Abdicate said:
@Phoneman777 and @Major you're both going back and forth and neither of you want to change so why continue going back and forth arguing and coming close to receiving warning points. Time to move on I think.
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If you check our posts, you'll see that neither of us have posted for about a month or so - it's a safe bet to conclude that we've already done that.
 
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